where should i do my ppl? [Archive]

DB6

7th Mar 2002, 23:55

The flying magazines (Pilot, Flyer, Today's Pilot) do 'Where to fly' features every year about this time. Get hold of them and look at the options in your area. I would advise you to use the nearest club unless you don't like it for some reason, and I would be cautious about training in the US - you will need a fair bit more training when you come back before you can fly in the UK. Where about in Yorkshire are you?

Facts Not Fiction Pls

8th Mar 2002, 01:34

Well obviously DB6 either:. .. .1. Does not like the USA or training there. .2. Had a bad experience . .3. Gone to a school where they did not prepare the student for the PPL in a proper manner. .4. Does not know what he is talking about. .. .Any student that trains outside the UK will need some local training to get familiar with the area although that would be the case anywhere. You would be stupid not to do some "getting to know the area" training. However, from my experience this would be approx. 3-5 hours if the student has just passed the skill test. If the pilot needs much more, he perhaps shouldn't have passed the skill test or the Instructor is milking him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

chrishowley

8th Mar 2002, 01:48

Sorry to disagree with you DB6 (I don't want it to become a regular occurance disagreeing with you on pprune!) However: . .. .My trust in the magazines fell drammatically after I read an article praising a school in the US which I did some flying with. The article did not reflect my experiences at all and made me wonder whether the school had made it worth the student's while to write a good article. Incidentally it happens to be the same school which Capt Pprune himself holds in low regard! . .. .I'm sure the pros and cons of training in the UK have been more than adequately explored here previously but to add my 'umble opinion - don't forget the issue of bad weather which tends to add lengthy times to ppl courses in the UK. Problem is that if you have a spell of bad weather and can't get out for a while, when you get back in the plane you spend all your time re-acclimatising and revising old skills. . .. .If you are anywhere near Leeds/Bradford. Check out Leeds Flying School. Multiflight are also worth a look. Talk to the students to get the real truths.. . . . [ 07 March 2002, 21:49: Message edited by: ExiledTyke ]

MVE

8th Mar 2002, 02:07

Hi,. .There are lots of places for you to train for the JAR PPL in the US and one in South Africa to do it a little cheaper. You can of course fly in the UK on an ICAO PPL (which is cheaper to do and is usable in the UK with a few restrictions)and converting it to a JAA PPL after 100hrs is relatively straight forward (skill test + Air Law exam I think).. .. .It will all depend on what you plan to do after the PPL. I'll drop you an e-mail with some research I've done rather than taking up the space here.. .. .Regards Rodders

easondown

8th Mar 2002, 13:55

Hi,. .I agree with facts not fiction pls, you can get some good quality training reasonably cheap out in the states and can complete the ppl quilcky due to the better weather. Thats where I done most of my initial training - it didn't do me any harm.. .. .Good Luck !!!. .(appologies in advance for any swelling mistakes - this dislexia is terrible)

Cruise Alt

8th Mar 2002, 15:10

If you can check out where you are thinking of going. Go there, talk to the students (when the management are not listening) and ask what their experiences have been like. Also talk to the instructors. These are the people you will be spending your time with. If they seem professional and friendly it is a good sign. If they are arrogant or unfriendly then it is not. Also be prepared to 'convert' to UK flying if you do train in the states. I am sure there are many good schools in the states but there are also many bad ones. (It may also be worth asking how many people have died at a particular school!). .. .Flying around the empty wastes of florida in glorious weather will not be good preparation for a mucky weather day negotiating yourself around and through the controlled airspace of the UK.. .. .Good luck, enjoy it and always think of safety.. . . . [ 08 March 2002, 11:11: Message edited by: Cruise Alt ]

jimmyj

8th Mar 2002, 23:11

Hi guys, thanks for all your info, I think I will probably stay in Eng for my training as I am aware that Florida might not be the best prep for the smoggy, busy airspace of England. When I took my driving test I was determined to learn in the middle of Sheffield rather than cowering along the back lanes of Yorkshire and I think I will throw myself in the deep end when learning to fly too.. .DB6; I am in Rotherham. .ExTyke; Thanks for the advice, nice to have an actual recommendation, will check out Leeds.. .. .Thanks again people.

sam white

8th Mar 2002, 23:29

Stay in england , Ouch.. .SOME British flying schools are second to none, There instructors are profesional instructors as opposed to hour builders as in the states, But the money you save in the states not to mention time will mean you go home from a nice holiday having flown yourself around for lunch in various remote locations that them on the ground dont have time to get there. Then you come home with a piece of paper, which after a 3-6 hours local flying will transform into a perfectly good license that gets you flying in the smog of GB, at the end of it you have saved enogh money by doing it in the States to pay for for you first few (or quite a few) flights. British clubs are Great to learn to fly with, But there is a good reason so many people choose the states.

Wee Weasley Welshman

8th Mar 2002, 23:35

In your shoes I might be tempted to talk to a decent sized localish FTO such as, oh, Multiflight at LeedsBradford. If you walk in the door and arrange a proper meeting with the management they should help you plan your entire training ensuring you get continuity which is so important. As a potential £40,000 customer at a smaller school you will get a lot of well deserved attention.. .. .If you can do you PPL, CPL and IR all at one place then its a definite advantage. If its in the same aircraft and is possible with the same instructor then that is worth an awful lot. Hour building in the the States is OK particularly if your instructor gives you a list of things to cover.... .. .There are plenty of good FTO's arouns your area that could help you out so go do some research. If you can find one that means you do not have accomodation expenses then thats going to save you a good few thousand pounds.. .. .Good luck,. .. .WWW. .. .NB Your PPL is the basis of your entire career - the CPL is merely the same test to slightly harder limits - to skimp is to be penny wise and pound foolish..

OscarTangoRomeo

9th Mar 2002, 00:19

Humerside airport is not that far from Rotherham.. .Humber flying club do ppl courses as well as CPL & IR all to a high standard but at a reasonable price.At the very least you should pop over and check them out:www.humberflyingclub.co.uk

DB6

9th Mar 2002, 02:06

Facts Not Fiction, I'm not opposed to training in the good ol' US of A (note I only said 'be cautious') but I have had people who trained in America come to join the club I instructed at in Scotland and they were jaw-droppingly poor. I'm not talking about local R/T procedures or anything like that, I'm talking about basic Lookout-Attitude-Instrument, straight and level flying. I know it was not the ability of the people in question as they were just fine after some remedial work.. .Exiled Tyke, no disagreement old bean, I'm talking about those lists of clubs which say what aircraft, prices etc., not the subjective stuff. . .Yorkshire Lad, Sheffield's nearest then you have Retford/Gamston and Sherburn-In-Elmet not too far away <a href="http://www.sherburn-aero-club.org.uk" target="_blank">web page</a>

Sensible

9th Mar 2002, 02:38

All those that knock the USA training, how many have flown there? WWW, what is your total hours in the USA, nil? . .Learn in the USA, get talking to ATC not some local controller using a near obsolete radio and peering through a pair of binoculars. Yes, sure the USA is different and thankfully so, I for one would soon be bored of all the restrictions and primitive GA facilities in the UK. Differences training will be necessary if only to adjust to the backward RT and circuit joins employed in the UK. . .. .Rant over!

clear prop!!!

9th Mar 2002, 04:47

Well said sensible.. .. .And anyway, how come this post hasn't had the padlock and been moved to private flying forum???. .. .Is the new padlock policy selective?

jimmyj

9th Mar 2002, 14:26

Hey clearprop, that's not nice!. .. .I am a wannabe through and through. The only reason I am asking about ppl is because it is the first step to becoming a pro.. .. .I've tried posting a similar question on the forum you mentioned and I was advised to go back to the wannabes forum! I am not a parcel that's been sent to the wrong house, just looking for advice from a few seasoned pros. (Thank you moderators for not padlocking me!)

BEagle

9th Mar 2002, 14:55

I think that the only CAA-approved schools for JAR/FCL PPL training 'not in a JAA member state' are 2 in the US and 1 in Seth Efrika. If you do go overseas, remember that your Flight Instructor must now meet JAR requirements for your hours to count. Otherwise, when your logbook is received by the CAA it won't take long for them to finds that he/she isn't on their database, hence you won't have finished training, hence the Skill Test will have been invalid..... .. .Be very careful indeed if you are thinking of going to the US! And remember that most flying clubs back here won't let you hire an ac until you meet their requirements for flying in the UK's different airspace etc - usually an extra 10 hours or so will be needed...... . . . [ 09 March 2002, 10:59: Message edited by: BEagle ]

scroggs

9th Mar 2002, 15:52

I'm sorry, folks, but PPL training does come under the Private Flying purview rather than Wannabes, in spite of the fact that your eventual aim is to become a professional pilot. So off it goes....

englishal

10th Mar 2002, 15:28

BEagle,. .. .I see you are talking cr@p again. The is NO reason for someone who has done a JAR PPL in the US to need "usually an extra 10 hours or so will be needed".......unless they are a f**kwit, and would have needed the extra hours in the UK anyway. Either that or the instructor doing the dual check is more concerned about getting himself extra hours than being honest with the student. There seems to be some predjudice amongst certain people against others who have been fortunate enough to save themselves 000's of pounds by using a bit of common sense. JAR standards in the US should be (and are in my experience) the same as in the UK, and if they are not then it is the examiners who are at fault.. .. .I for one (and I know others) came back from the states, did a 1 hr dual check and was set free at EGHH. After all, you are learning the JAR syllabus, and lets face it its not particularly complicated is it.. .. .Rgds. .. .EA

Julian

10th Mar 2002, 15:33

Well said EA.. .. .I see others are now questioning WWW logged US time and he STILL is not answering.... .. .Julian.

QUERY

11th Mar 2002, 03:33

You are wrong, englishal, to imply that UK flying clubs are engaged in the complex process of prejudice, when it's just their business plan to:. .-rubbish training anywhere else. .-milk the students for max. hours. .-rip-off anyone who hasn't trained with us.. . . .Julian, you should remember that you are not allowed to mock the moderators. Even if WWW has no hours in North America, that does not prevent him pontificating on pilot training there or anything else. . .P.S. If anyone believes that American, Continental, Delta etc. pilots are incompetent and inferior to those on BA, Easy, Go, Ryan etc., they should ask the CAA to ban US carriers from UK airspace.

Julian

13th Mar 2002, 19:39

Good point Query!. .. .Next time I fly into KLAX I will be sure to ask the Cpt and F/O where they did their training, there is no point recklessly putting our lives in danger is there? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

BEagle

14th Mar 2002, 00:02

The 'usual 10 hours' to equip US-trained PPLs to fly in the UK comes from a CAA source.. .. .Some US-trained pilots need a quick 'UK orientation' and possibly an aircraft conversion check, others need almost totally retraining - I've encountered both ends of the spectrum on this!. .. .If you want to train for a JAR/FCL PPL overseas - just be aware of the possible problems when you get home.

Julian

14th Mar 2002, 15:33

BEagle - I would be very interested if you could post a link or details of how to obtain this CAA document. It would be interesting to see how they collated their data to come up with what I presume is an average time of 10hours....

Julian

14th Mar 2002, 15:52

Enclosing an extract of said report would be even better.

BEagle

14th Mar 2002, 16:04

'CAA source' is a person, not a document. He also said that this supplementary UK training was one reason why the CAA would not pursue a 'safety case' against certain US practices. . .. .Basically no-one will rent you an aircraft if you don't pass their club acceptance check whether you've been trained by a UK, US or Martian organisation; it's nothing to do with financial greed on behalf of the clubs, it's all down to meeting their standards.

englishal

14th Mar 2002, 16:04

Beagle,. .. .Are you sure the CAA are not refering to an FAA Licenced pilot? Ok, if you train for your FAA PPL then all sorts of rules and regs, like Air Law etc will be slightly different, and you will need to get up to scratch on the JAA stuff. However, a JAA trained Pilot in the US has been taught, and has proven that they understand the JAA syllabus (by passing the exams), and as we all know the laws of physics don't change between the USA and Europe. . .. .Fair enough, if a PPL has learned in a C152 and then want to incorporate PA-28 (for example)difference training as part of their UK checkout, then it will take longer than the 1 hr dual check, but this is the same regardless of where you trained.. .. .Remember it works both ways though. If you want to go on and fly in the USA later on (highly recommend it, due to cost and fun experience), I would recommend the JAA PPL in the US, then you get the best of both worlds. . .. .Rgds. .EA

The Flying I

14th Mar 2002, 16:20

EnglishAl:. .I think the CAA '10 hours' refers to the amount of flying time before these 'trained in the US' pilots accept landing fees as a normal part of flying.. .(They couldn't mean 10 hours extra for new JAR-PPL holders coming from the US as they are the ones who approve standards in the schools and instructors out there.... could they?)

Julian

14th Mar 2002, 17:57

BEagle - Aha , now we are getting to the bottom of it! Your 'CAA source' is an invidiuals opionion!!! I found out on Wednesday, by just chatting, that one of the engineering contractors I am managing is an Instructor/Examiner and this was one of issues we discussed. He hasn't had a problem with US trained pilots, he agreed that a couple of hours is generally enough, as you say a club check flight. If we are going to take one individuals opinion then it seems they contradict one another. If you, as Englishal has stated, are talking about FAA trained pilots then I can see your point as regards air law, etc. . .. .To see blanket statements such as those by WWW which basically don't hold water but also reflect on themselves in a bad light. I am quite happy to accept there are schools in the US which are not so good, just as there are some not so good in the UK. I fly in both countries so I am not providing a one sided argument, I would be worried if a club offered me an aircraft without a checkflight first! The club I use in the US requires a checkflight if you have not flown for a month or aircraft type for same period.. .. .Maybe if you see WWW you could ask him why when ever he is asked directly about his experinences in the US he refuses to answer - he seems to be chastising the area without having even been there! It would be like me critising the SA schools - as I have never been there either, although if all goes to plan I hope to get out towards the end of this year and give them a try.. .. .US instructors have problems with UK trained pilots with regard to airlaw, RT, etc, but they have a much more practical view on the situation before making a judgement on ability, I have seen UK trained pilots getting into diffulty in the US so is not exactly one sided!. .. .I hope now you can see which angle I am coming from and trust that when statements such as this are made, especially by moderators, they will be clarified. I am sure out US GA/professional friends would not like to be told that they are cr@p pilots!!!

DB6

15th Mar 2002, 22:44

BEagle is not talking crap and it's nothing to do with prejudice, nor is it a blanket statement that applies to all US trained pilots as some of the more vociferous amongst you seem to be bent on implying. The fact is that some people come back from America with a PPL on paper but (and I am choosing my words carefully here) THEY DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO SAFELY TAKEOFF, FLY STRAIGHT AND LEVEL AND THEN LAND AN AIRCRAFT. It is nothing to do with the individual's ability because after a few hours of tuition (ten would be a reasonable estimate) the two people that I came across were just fine.. .When I first started instructing the CFI of the club gave me a few tips - things to watch out for etc. and one of the things he said was 'If someone comes to you for a checkout and they've trained in America, don't assume they'll be OK after a quick trip - be on your guard'. At the time I thought he was being a bit biased but, by Christ I remembered his words a couple of years later when such a situation arose. It is nonsense to suggest that anything other than a minority of US trained pilots are like this but until you have been an instructor and come across one I'm afraid you just would not believe it.. .America's a great place to fly and has a much better attitude to aviation in general than the UK but one or two of their flying schools are really, really bo11ocks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />. . . . [ 15 March 2002, 18:44: Message edited by: DB6 ]

kieranwilliams

15th Mar 2002, 23:12

I am hesitant to post to this thread as people seem to be so agressive if someone writes something they don't agree with. However, I would like to help people who are considering training in the US on grounds of cost. I have been an instructor for some years in the UK and have also flown quite a bit in the US. I am only basing my observations/advice on my own experience. The way that navigation is taught in the US is usually different from the UK dead reckoning method-it is a lot easier to follow roads and hop from point to point in many parts of the USA. Many students who have learnt there find it very difficult to find their way around in the UK where fields and villages can be much closer together. Airspace, particularly in the southeast can also be hard to manouver and RT here needs to be a lot more disciplined. Many US airfields fly racetrack circuits, joins are different and instructors often teach students to land half way along the enormous tarmac runways which are common. I find that pilots have often developed a habit of setting up approach configuration downwind then "dragging" the final approach. I don't need flying hours and encourage pilots on check to log flights P1 if I don't touch the controls - but it is true that many people returning with licences gained solely in the US need to do a fair number of dual flights before they are cleared for PPL hire at our club. What I did myself, many years ago, and have advised my own students to do is to complete initial training here and then go to the US to build hours and do type conversions. There is a lot of flying to be done and fun to be had. If anyone does decide to do ab initio in the US then choose a reputable school and get personal recommendations. Remember that there is no rush and take as much time as you need - everyone is different. Most of all - enjoy it, stay safe, don't give up.

chrishowley

16th Mar 2002, 00:51

DB6 - Finally something we really agree on. . .Titch - very well put, if I may say so. . .. .I did some of my ppl training in the US and appreciate some of the differences (which become more significant to an inexperienced pilot). In fact yesterday I had en e-mail from a friend who as just returned from Arizona and he reminded me of a lot of the things I now take for granted. I have also heard many stories of pilots training at 'certain' schools in the US who had a long way to go to become competent pilots. . .. .Yes the views expressed here are generalisations and there will always be exceptions. However I believe the expereinces that these instructors and others tell of are very real. . .. .I would still encourage students to do some (probably not all) of their training in the US. But the same rules apply as for any training - research well, choose carefully and be aware of the pros and pitfalls of your decision and never forget its always a lot of money which you are going to part with!

zzzz

16th Mar 2002, 18:54

Sorry I haven't read most of the posts, 'cause I don't want to get bogged down on the US vs UK issue.. .. .Back to the point, try Sheffield Aero Club at Netherthorpe (by Worksop) and close to Rotherham. As it is a club in the true sense of the word the prices they offer are very good, and I know a few people who trained there and loved it!

Julian

18th Mar 2002, 16:40

I did say earlier that I agree there are bad flight schools - just as there are in the UK. I have watched UK trained pilots do $15000 worth of damage to an aircraft, I have heard them infringe airspace, not maintain assigned altitudes under IFR, to name a few.. .. .Does this mean that all our schools are cr@p? No of course it does'nt!!!. .. .If you have students come back from the US who are frankly unfit then name and shame the school so others will know, otherwise blanket slagging off of the FAA system won't really gain you much respect.