Southampton Approach on Thursday

[NorthSouth]

Was on a Flybe arrival into Southampton on Thursday morning and we had a rather strange routing which involved passing through the final approach track to 20 at about 4000ft, approx 3nm from the runway, then hung a left into a downwind leg and eventually left again on to final. Can any Southampton controllers out there give me a clue as to what was going on?
NS

[Glamdring]

Sounds like a fairly normal pattern to me. Especially if you were number 2 or 3 in traffic.

[Weirdo Earthtorch]

Probably a practice SRA ;)

[DC10RealMan]

If it was a jet aeroplane and is handed over to Southampton Approach high and fast and not having an area of CAS to the North-East with low bases of CAS you will have to fly that pattern to add the track miles to allow the aircraft to bleed off the height and speed. The turboprops are "flexible" enough not to require the extra miles, I understand.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Why should an SRA affect the routing?

"Over the ILS and down the other side" is a straightforward tactical ATC manouever. Nothing unusual about it as other replies have suggested - happens anywhere.

[horsebox]

Standard way of doing things at Southampton. Has been for the last few years.

The vectoring keeps you in controlled airspace and offers a degree of protection & separation from the large amount of ga traffic in the area.

[Otto Throttle]

NorthSouth,

Not a controller, but a pilot. What you have described is a pretty normal approach into SOU. A number of years ago it was fairly normal for flights to make a straight in approach onto runway 20, with this approach taking the aircraft outside of controlled airspace and making its descent and approach under a radar advisory service until rejoining controlled airspace inside SOU zone.

As I understand things, a couple of years ago, this practice was curtailed, especially for Flybe aircraft. I don't know if this was in response to ATC requirements or as a result of any airprox, but we are now no longer able to accept routings into SOU which take us outside of controlled airspace. SOU zone is a fairly small chunk of airspace and it sits in a very busy part of the world with a mixture of commercial training traffic, GA flyers and military activity surrounding it.

The 'normal' vectoring now takes us towards the SAM VOR (sitting on the airfield near the 20 threshold) at approx 7000' and then descending as you describe at a distance of 5 miles or so from the field in a left hand orbit to join the final approach track at approx 8 miles. It adds a few more minutes to the arrival, but allows the flight to remain inside controlled airspace at all times, and thus maintain the benefits of a full ATC control service.

[TCAS FAN]

The hours building orbits north of the field widely known as a "Winchester 2 arrival", 'cos on a clear day you get to see Winchester twice!

As indicated in previous responses, ops normal at SOU. All due to a lack of controlled airspace in the Solent CTA, the base level of Q41 north of the CTA being FL 65 and local NATS policy of retaining aircraft within the limited controlled airspace that is available. The latter a very good idea to avoid TCAS going into meltdown.

Would be curious to know the additional fuel burn incurred annually by Flybe. About time for a long overdue Airspace Change Proposal to be kicked off for SOU to secure adequate controlled airspace for the traffic they already have, plus what could appear when the E175s arrive, assuming that SOU have somewhere to park them on their restrictive apron!

All that initially needs to be done is for BAA SOU to accept that an ACP is long overdue, and accept the fact that they are going to have to find a way of funding it, albeit that the cost can be shared with BOH to simultaneously increase Solent CTA airspace for the protection of BOH traffic, although ATC BOH and their customers currently don't seem too bothered about regularly leaving controlled airspace.

[055166k]

Before this hole gets any deeper, it may be prudent to ascertain whether this procedure is imposed by ATC or has been requested by the airline operator[s] in an effort to enhance safety. The major operator into Southampton has made several operating policy changes throughout UK airspace so that their aircraft enjoy regulated airspace protection where it is practical [and common sense] to do so. Certainly evident on the sectors that I do.

[TCAS FAN]

055166K

Imposed by the Air Navigation Service Provider, NATS Southampton, as the only tolerably safe option due to the inadequate extent of controlled airspace in and adjacent to the northern extremity of the current Solent CTA.

[DC10RealMan]

If the present procedure is safe why extend controlled airspace even more and restrict and increase the costs to other airspace users who would have to avoid it.

[Andy Mayes]

Why should an SRA affect the routing?


HD, I would have thought Weirdo Earthtorch was having a joke in that the ATCOs SRA skills might just be a tad out! :ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Yes, Andy, I realised that about an hour after replying. That's the speed my brain works at nowadays!!

[Andy Mayes]

Yes, Andy, I realised that about an hour after replying. That's the speed my brain works at nowadays!!


It'll happen to us all! :ok::E

Regards.

[TCAS FAN]

DC10RealMan

When were you last refused entry to the Solent CTA?

[250 kts]

If the present procedure is safe why extend controlled airspace even more and restrict and increase the costs to other airspace users who would have to avoid it.

True. Maybe the ANSP should push that anyone who receives a service from them should have to pay for it. Why shouldn't a zone transit which I guess is requested to avoid track mileage not have to pay for that short cut?

It's time the whole Solent area was redesigned to enable the operators who have no choice but to pay for the service provided to be given a more efficient and therfore cost effective service.

[NorthSouth]

Thanks for all your responses - very interesting. I'm quite surprised NATS Southampton should decide that services outside CAS aren't acceptable. I guess the combination of Popham (lots of non-transponding light aircraft?) and helis out of Middle Wallop does it.
NS

[Bright-Ling]

Given that the CAS north of SOU is some of the most infringed, maybe they would be at less risk outside CAS....!

Seriously, this is nothing odd. It happens at lots of airfields where airspace can curtail more expeditious routeings.

[DFC]

Why shouldn't a zone transit which I guess is requested to avoid track mileage not have to pay for that short cut?




A zone transit is not a short-cut if it is the flight planned route. Refusing (or not being able to obtain) a transit is extending the normal route.

Control zones are not exclusion zones where you can't plan through and if you manage to get through it is a short-cut. They are fully plannable (within reason) and it should be viewed that a reasonable transit request is not a request for a short-cut.

Therefore it could be reasonable for aerodromes to pay for the resource they use -airspace and receive a reduction in the amount paid based on the number of aircraft that proceed through that airspace. Offspace anyone? :E

[WorkingHard]

"Maybe the ANSP should push that anyone who receives a service from them should have to pay for it"
I have a much better idea. Why dont those who require exclusive airspace pay for it on a volumetric basis? Wonder how quickly CAS would shrink.

[soaringhigh650]

I'm quite surprised NATS Southampton should decide that services outside CAS aren't acceptable.

There are services outside CAS. It's called ATSOCAS.

Provided by Bournemouth (to the west), and NATS Farnborough (to the East).

[chevvron]

Strange, I wonder what woke Bright-Ling and DFC.

[Bright-Ling]

chevvron. Do I know you? Are you at Luton?

[Bright-Ling]

DFC A zone transit is not a short-cut if it is the flight planned route.

Just so I am clear in what you are saying: Are you seriously telling everyone (and there are people on here who believe things that are said) that VFR pilots should PLAN on going through CAS?

[DFC]

Are you seriously telling everyone (and there are people on here who believe things that are said) that VFR pilots should PLAN on going through CAS?


Absolutely 100% they should have a plan that if appropriate to the route goes via controlled airspace class B,C,D,E,F and G. i.e. airspace available to VFR flights

Too many pilots plan to fly in various Shaped routes avoiding every bit of class D and then when cleared through have no established plan to do so which leaves them heading into controleld airspace without any pre-planned heanding or route and opens up the posibility of wandering round inside the zone which I believe is worse than wandering round outside it.

Of course everyone should have a back-up plan for a delayed or refused clearance which could be simply hold until you get one and/or divert or both.

However, VFR flights are no different from IFR flights - they plan a route via the airspace they are permitted to fly in and where necessary request ATC clearance.

IFR flights legally require the exact same clearances as VFR flights for every bit of airspace they fly through. In most places the clearance is automatic for an IFR flight to reduce unnecessary R/T - in many other places it is not.

There is no real difference legally between an IFR flight from Heathrow to New York requesting a clearance to transit the Shanwick and Gander OCA's and a VFR flight requesting a transit of the Solent CTA. In both cases ATC can refuse. In both cases the pilots can come up with an alternative plan that enables the destination to be reached but costs lots more and in both cases it is an ATC reason for not getting a clearance. So the extra cost to the operator in both cases is a result of ATC capacity.

Pilots should not hesitate to plan reasonably via all the airspace classes that they are legally entitled to fly in. They should request a clearance when appropriate and they should have an alternative plan should a clearance not be available.

Can you please tell me where IFR or VFR is mentioned in the previous paragraph?

Can you tell me what is unreasonable from a safety or legal point about the same paragraph?

Disclaimer;

None of the above should be read as encouraging IFR or VFR flights to plan via airspaces where known restrictions or ATC actions cause frequent unnecassary delays if there is an alternative route that avoids the issue. :)

[soaringhigh650]

Absolutely 100% they should have a plan that if appropriate to the route goes via controlled airspace class B,C,D,E,F and G. i.e. airspace available to VFR flights


I agree 100% with this.

Uncontrolled airspace almost does not exist over here. Everything is planned through controlled airspace.

We transition Delta and Charlie airspace regularly. Entering Bravo airspace is usually possible off-peak with priority given to aircraft landing and departing at the field.


which leaves them heading into controleld airspace without any pre-planned heanding or route and opens up the posibility of wandering round inside the zone which I believe is worse than wandering round outside it.


Not sure about Euroland but Delta in the US is too small to "wander around" in.

If in Charlie or Bravo, we can "request vectors to [place name]" and from that point we resume our own navigation. This is essential and encouraged as we can get vectored around all over the place.

[WorkingHard]

DFC and Soarhigh650 you are going to have a few ATCOs with apoplexy after those remarks.

[Gonzo]

Would they?

Surely it's good airmanship to have planned a 'desired' route which might transit a zone as well as a route which remains outside CAS in the event that transit is not possible.

[mad_jock]

Gonzo its common sense never mind Airmanship.

Also its normal to have 2-3 cunning plans for fuel managment as well.

All goes wel,l get the transits no need for a fuel stop.

Bit more head wind than expected fuel stop at egxx

Don't get the transit sod it when can get some lunch and fuel at egyy.

Although to be honest the pilots that seem to have the fore though to do as you say are usually the ones that have enough savy to hoof it on the fly and go with the flow with only a loose plan with 3-4 different options. Mind you these pilots are the ones that are more than likey to get zone transits cause they not only know what they are doing but also sound like they know what they are doing, so get the transit.