Misuse of A/G units

[DVR6K]

Hiya,. .. .Just wondering, how many people have encountered misuse of A/G units at small airfields. I have encountered it twice, at Fenland, and Dunkeswell, both times I was "cleared" (TWR) to taxi to the holding point and was allowed to take-off "at my discretion" (AFIS) which threw me a bit because, having done all my training at an airfield with only a "radio" suffix as the callsign I was used to the normal correct procedures.. .. .Does no-one monitor this sort of thing because one day someone is going to get hurt by obeying instructions issued by someone not authorised to do so.. .. .Not picking at the above airfields, both are great places that I have visited more than once but sometimes have encountered some oddities on the r/t that´s all. Anyone else had these experiences?

[mad_jock]

Report them to the CAA. I am sure they would take a very dim few on the practise.. .. .MJ

[Red Four]

These problems are compounded by the fact that A/G or FISO units are not required to record the frequency they operate on. It is a recommendation for FISO units only. So any disagreements like this are very difficult to prove, unless there is an SRG inspector monitoring clandestinely!! Basically like all things aviation, you pays your money and makes your choice, where you fly from.

[Polar_stereographic]

DVR6K,. .. .Did it cause you a problem, or was it just a poor choise of words on behalf of who ever was using the radio at the time?. .. .I know Dunks quite well having flown in a lot, and from the way the radio operates, it's whoever is nearest to the Tx puts out the radio call. It's never been a problem to me.. .. .PS

[FNG]

At least part of the problem is attributable to pilots who cannot get into their thick heads the (clear and obvious) distinctions between ATC, FIS and A/G. I once overheard the driver of a twin asking for permission to start his engines at....Popham. He followed up by endless requests for clearances to taxi, phone his auntie, blow his nose etc. . .. .If the bloke at the other end of the A/G is also manning the front desk, making the butties, and tending the sheep, he may be led astray into inapt terminology by pilots blathering away using expressions such as clearance, requesting detailed traffic info etc. As is usually pointed out when this topic comes up, places like White Waltham have it down pat: if anyone asks for something they cannot give, he/she is told so politely but firmly, often just by the words "negative, air/ground only".. . . . <small>[ 08 March 2002, 08:37: Message edited by: FNG ]</small>

[Tee]

It irritates me when A/G ststions exceed their authority and, conversely, when pilots fail to recognise the difference between A/G, Flight Information and ATC.. .. .However, I must point out that Fenland isn't Air/Ground - it's "Fenland Information" and offers a Flight Information Service. FISOs can issue instructions to aircraft on the ground and use the phrase "at your discretion" to indicate to pilots that they are not subject to "control" by the FISO.. .. .Fenland isn't my home patch, but I've always found the service there to be provided within the rules.

[Polar_stereographic]

Yes, I totaly agree that from time to time that radio operators (whatever their qualifications) do exceed their auhority, but I must say that I've got to the stage where I don't get rattled by it anymore. I take the view that they are there to help me, and wherever possibe I avoid the conflicts that would lead to them being stroppy and all that goes with that.. .. .The late Chris Freeman at Headcorn had RT off to a tee. RIP.. .. .PS

[fen boy]

Having helped at an AFISO unit there is definately a big difference between an AFISO information service and air ground. An AFISO will have had to pass a very tough ATC exam, medical and be subject to frequent inspections from the CAA.. .. .If you look in Pooleys or the Air Pilot it clearly states that at weekends Fenland is an information service. The controller will also say information in all his calls. This is not an air ground service it is an ATC service - that's why you get different instructions. . .. .There are however many air ground services who think they are full controllers and will give you more instructions than an AFISO!!!

[Noggin]

There is no such thing as an "AFISO" any more. The term is FISO because they may operate in information regions as well as at aerodromes.. .. .Red Four makes a curious comment: "A/G or FISO units are not required to record the frequency they operate on". .. .They are only allowed to operate on the frequency that has been allocated to them by the CAA.. .. .The major problem with A/G operators is that many are unqualified. In order to operate an A/G station you must be in posession of a Radio Operator's Certificate of Competence, to be valid the certificate must be signed by the radio station licensee, who is responsible for ensuring that the station is operated in accordance with CAP452. Many holders of this certificate obtained it on the basis of holding a FRTOL, it is probably unsigned, and they may never have seen a CAP452.

[fen boy]

I think he means record as in keep a tape of the conversations. I thought FISO units had to do this now?

[CaptAirProx]

Polar, I don't think it the likes of yourself that need worry. You clearly understand whats going on. It is the poor student that has read his books but finds in practice it ain't true. It is confusing to them and ultimately dangerous. We must all try and be professional in what we do right from the start or else one day it will be a free for all. Hope Im not flying when it gets like that. The more experienced pilots I believe are in a very good position to demonstrate a good example to the learning brethren.

[Polar_stereographic]

CaptAirProx . .. .Agree completely.. .. .PS

[bertiethebadger]

Though things like this shouldn't happen, I take instucitions from A/G as an advisory, certainly not an order.. .. .I say advisary, as I would expect ( read hope ) that they know more about what is happening at that airfield than I do.. .. .As P1, your in charge ( & ultimately responsible ). If it's not the right thing to do, don't do it! Personally, I wouldn't sit on a runway & wait at an A/G airfield.. .. .BtB

[sennadog]

Well for the benefit of us students who haven't got as far as the RT - maybe one of you guys could give the various definitions between ATC/AG etc?

[DVR6K]

Thanks for your replies everyone! Not checked for a couple of days so lots to read!. .. .In response to a question from Polar Stereographic, no it wasn´t a problem as it was not very busy at the time and therefore any "instructions" I recieved at Fenland were pretty much what I was going to do anyway. I kinda wanted to question it but it was my QXC so I had other things on my mind!. .. .Dunkeswell weren´t that bad at all but some of the calls were a bit dubious but with hindsight they didn´t pose a danger to the operations at all.. .. .Thanks again for the replies, it´s very interesting to hear what other people think on this sort of thing. I certainly wasn´t expecting it when I first made radio contact with Fenland at the time and was a bit confusing etc considering all my training was at an A/G airfield.. .. .Cheers. .. .DVR6K

[Final 3 Greens]

Polar. .. .Chris Freeman was indeed a character! If you listened carefully, you could often hear the latest litter of Jack Russells in the background!. .. .Sleep easy Chris. . . . <small>[ 09 March 2002, 06:52: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]</small>

[Chilli Monster]

Sennadog. .. .Ok - quick resume. .. .ATC - Can give instructions both in the air and on the ground.. .. .FISO - Can give instructions on the ground but only information (including traffic information) in the air. .. .A/G - Can give information only with regard to the aerodrome operation, as opposed to specific traffic information (they're not trained nor qualified to do so).. .. .CM

[sennadog]

Cheers Chilli!. .. .Ultimately, it's the responsibility of the PIC to make the decision regardless of whether it's an A/G or ATC - right?. .. .As far as the instruction - " line up on RWY ... at your discretion " what people are saying as far as I can tell is that this is incorrect and that the A/G should not be giving this instruction? Am I right in saying this. From my limited experience this does not seem out of order.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[DVR6K]

Sennadog,. .. .It´s always the pilot´s responsibility to make the decision whether ATC have told you it´s safe to do so or not. It´s your arse on the line remember.... .. .As for AFIS units, well, when you call "Ready for departure" they´ll say something like "Take-off at your discretion, one PA28 late downwind" and that will tell you to have a look for him and if he´s far enough away for you to execute the takeoff, you can go for it. They´re not telling you it´s safe to go, just informing you of what they know so you can make an informed decision as to whether you want to go or wait for the other bloke to land. See what I mean?. .. .I´m not an instructor so I´ve gone about explaining it very poorly but there´s a rule out there somewhere!. .. .Hope that is as clear as mud.

[Chilli Monster]

Senna. .. ."At your discretion" should not be used at an A/G unit. It implies that the operator giving you the information has assessed the situation, sees no reason to prevent your departure, but the final arbiter of that decision is you.. .. .A/G however are not qualified to provide that assessment. All they should be giving you is the surface wind (if available) and it is then up to you to assess both the traffic environment and whether it is safe for you to depart.. .. .CM

[sennadog]

Ta muchly. I've heard " at your discretion " a number of times at A/G airfields in the past. Looked for anyone on finals and quite often seen someone and thought....." he's a bit optimistic " calling that one and decided to stay put.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> . .. .This is the kind of stuff that is a lot more relevant than knowing some obscure ICAO article in Air Law!. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Tee]

An A/G operator CAN give traffic information - see CAP 452

[Noggin]

"FISO - Can give instructions on the ground but only information (including traffic information) in the air. .. .A/G - Can give information only with regard to the aerodrome operation, as opposed to specific traffic information (they're not trained nor qualified to do so).". .. .WRONG! INFORMATION is INFORMATION no matter what it concerns, its purpose is to permit a pilot to operate in accordance with the rules of the air. Whilst a FISO might be better qualified than some A/G ops, legally, there is no difference between A/G and AFIS when airborne. The Authority of the FISO ceases once you pass the holding point.

[Squadgy]

Hi. .. ." As far as the instruction - " line up on RWY ... at your discretion " ". .. .As expalined already , coming from an A/G unit this is definately a no no. However it's also technically incorrect coming from a FIS. . .. .FISOs will use "Take off at your discretion" when there is no air traffic reason that an aircraft can't depart. . .. .If a FISO wants an aircraft to line up on a runway and wait (perhaps due to traffic wanting to cross the runway, or to traffic departing from further along it etc), the phrase "G-XX, report lining up" is used. The aircraft should not then report until "Take off at your discretion" is issued.. .. .Cheers

[Spiney Norman]

Hi All.. . With regard to monitoring the provision of service by A/G or FISO. CAA ATS Safety Regulation do monitor service but, as their main responsibility is to full ATC units they will only generally be aware of misuse or poor A/G or FISO work if you tell them. So if you feel the service was poor or misleading enough to warrant a complaint to them their phone numbers are... .(Southern Region) 01293 573426 (Gatwick). .(Central) 0161 499 3055 (Manchester). .(Northern)01786 431401 (Stirling). . . . Personally I agree with a lot of the previous posts that the problem lies with the fact that many service providers expect anyone qualified, (I hope), to handle the radio who happens to be near it! If this is combined with a lack of pilot knowledge of what the service being provided should be you have a recipe for confusion. A few years ago I used to do the A/G at a local fly-in and I can tell you the requests from many of the visiting pilots for 'clearances' etc were quite an eye opener. When I'm flying I always remember the part that was in the Air Nav Order when I had to learn it..'Notwithstanding any ATC clearance it shall remain the responsibility of the Aircraft commander to ensure the safe operation of the aircraft'. I think with that in mind you shouldn't go far wrong.. .. .Spiney

[Daifly]

Deary me people... We'll be going to full ATS's at every airport soon if you lot have your way!. .. .It's the PIC's responsibility to know what service (s)he is being offered and act accordingly. You look up the approach and check the runway before you enter it - that's the same whether it's Luton, Duxford or Dunkeswell! . .. .We don't need anymore regulation in flying. Take the services on offer, in general A/G Operators are helpful - they know stuff about their own airfield which you don't, AFISO's know even more and can provide a first class service. ATC - well, they set a world class standard.. .. .If I'm told to do something I think about it, "Jump!" "Why?", not "How High?", therefore if you're not happy with something don't do it! . .. .The CAA don't need phoning about A/G Operators going outside of their limits, the A/G Operators just need to know where your flexibility ends.

[Chilli Monster]

Tee & Noggin. .. .There are certain places where the A/G operator does not have a view of the circuit and the entire airfield, working from an office as opposed to a tower (Sherburn, Caernarvon and Welshpool come immediately to mind). The sort of traffic information that they cannot posibly give (and which I as an ATCO refer to) is when you call downwind and you start being given where the other traffic in the circuit is. . .. .In addition to this bear this in mind. In an uncontrolled environment how do you know the traffic information you are receiving is correct?. .. .So - although you say they can give it, the real question has to be - is it accurate?. .. .CM

[Spiney Norman]

Daifly.. . The last thing I would want is for people to feel that if they have a 'problem' with an A/G operator or FISO they should start ringing ATS standards! I merely put the info in the post because this question was posed earlier in this topic. My personal view is that firstly, as you rightly say, you should understand the limitations of the service that,as a pilot, you're recieving. Secondly, the responsibility finally rests with you as the pilot, whatever the ATC service you're getting.. .. .Spiney

[skippyscage]

you just jogged my memory.... .. .the late Chris Freeman of Headcorn (oops Lashenden). .. .I used to travel between Guernsey and Headcorn quite often, and I'll always remember the first time I rang enquiring about who to fax regarding customs and SB.. .. .His reply was "I am Customs". .. .RIP and sadly missed as one of the characters of aviation

[Dannyboyblue]

Just a quick reply after breezing through all of the replies, thought i might set the record straight.

First of all if you have any problems that you believe may endanger the safety of aircraft, please report it. I would always advise that you go through the chain of command. I am a senior FISO (A) at a very busy aerodrome (when the weathers good!), if i had any information given to me by a pilot that one of the FISO's had been going beyond their proffessional capacity i WOULD do something about it.

If you do not seem to have any luck for some reason then go to the Airfield manager or head of operations and advise them of your concerns. If this does not work (which frankly i hope it would) your next step would be ATS standards at Gatwick.

In reply to noggins note, FISO's have Full control on the ground up to the holding point. This rule can be found in CAP 410 part A and B and also in CAP 427.

After the holding point you will hear one of the following phrases, either Hold Position (at the designated holding point) Take off Your discreation RWY-- Surface wind, or The runway is occupied report lining up (this is instead of Line up RWY-- This is a command and cannot be said when you have passed/or are about to pass the holding point).

In response to another question, all FISO's have to do whats called a revalidation after two years. This involves a member of the CAA coming in and examining you for say 3 to 4 hours and you then have an oral exam. This must be done to contiue to use your Lisence at an aerodrome.
We also have an Air Traffic inspection every two years so we are regulated and if the aerodrome fails this something must be done to improve it otherwise the CAA may take away the privilages of using a FISO service.

Recording of the RT is not yet in force for a FISO unit (Aerodrome) details of this can be found in CAP 427

I hope this has helped

[foghorn]

A few years ago I regularly had a problem with the A/G service at a certain Kent airfield that styles itself as a London airport (despite being on a mudflat next to a nuclear power station a good 60 miles from the capital). On some occasions it was like listening to Heathrow Final Director. It wouldn't have surprised me to be given vectors. I don't visit there anymore.

Overall I think that P_S's approach is best. First of all, if you are confronted with a unit that is behaving above its station either politely comply (if it is good airmanship to do so) or ignore it (but announce your intentions for the sake of the other a/c on frequency).

If things get any worse (at the aforementioned Kent airport I was once berated on air for not doing what the A/G said despite announcing my intentions), a simple polite call of 'Station Calling, confirm your callsign XXXXX RADIO' with a follow-up phone call on the ground to tell them what you think!

If you still get problems after that, contact the CAA and NATS - A/G units and AFISOs have senior NATS ATCOs allocated to them to oversee their standards and would be very interested to hear about what units for which they have responsibility were up to. Certain members of pprune's ATC community do this job!

cheers!
foggy.