SCMP Cadet Article

[NoAndThen]

What are they thinking????



It's easier to be a Cathay cadet but there's less money in flying




Elaine Yau
Updated on Aug 18, 2010 Nelson Chang Way-man and Oscar Francis were members of two very different professions but they had one thing in common: a love of flying.It led the doctor and investment banker to quit their highly paid jobs and join Cathay Pacific Airways' cadet pilot scheme last year with an initial pay potential of about a third of their previous earnings.
Both said their love of flying overcame any financial concerns and the chance to make a living from it was a dream comes true.
Yet while they may be about to realise their dream, others who have been through the same scheme are far less happy. The reason: the terms and conditions for pilots have been changed. A local captain said that after long-standing friction about unequal terms for locals and expatriates, Cathay, fearing action under Hong Kong's racial discrimination law, has stopped offering a housing allowance - not available to local staff - to all new recruits.
The Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association, whose membership includes many of Cathay's locally hired and expatriate pilots, said the change was implemented in response to pilots' complaints about the disparity in pay between expatriate and local pilots. But instead of equalising benefits upwards, the bar has been lowered.
A union spokesman, a local captain who has worked for the airline for 14 years and requested anonymity, said the change was initiated after the Race Discrimination Ordinance came into effect last year.
"Now everybody, irrespective of your nationality or how many flying hours you have clocked up before you join Cathay, is employed on local terms. Instead of raising the salary of locals to achieve pay parity, they now shrink the pay packages of expatriates," he said.
It is an issue that will affect both Francis, a Briton, and Chang - both are classed as locals because they have Hong Kong ID cards. They will have to get by on the salary alone. But expatriate cadets are now also out of luck on housing allowances.
Francis and Chang were among the first batch of 61 cadet pilots recruited by Cathay after it loosened the entry requirement for its in-house training programme last year in a bid to attract more high-quality applicants to cope with expansion.
Where once the programme was open only to Hong Kong ID card holders, now anyone can join regardless of nationality provided they agree to settle in Hong Kong and view it as their permanent base.
Francis, 36, worked for Morgan Stanley as a legal and compliance officer. In 1999, he applied to British Airways but was rejected. "Before that, I wanted to join the Royal Air Force, but I was hit by a car and hurt my hip in 1996, which made me medically unfit to join the force," he said.
Francis, who was earning about HK$100,000 a month when he left the bank in 2009, will bring his wife and two children to settle in Hong Kong. He said taking up the Cathay job had been a difficult decision to make.
"I got no pay during the 14 months' training," he said. "I discussed with my wife how to do it. My wife did a course on English teaching while I got my training. She will teach English after we move to Hong Kong. I owe her everything. I know she has had a very difficult year."


Chang, a 31-year-old University of Hong Kong medical school graduate, also married with two children, was earning about HK$70,000 a month when he decided to change jobs.
"My wife is also a doctor and we have savings so we are able to do it," he said.


While 61 cadet pilots were recruited last year, only 36 and 19 joined the training programme in 2008 and 2007 respectively. But though the numbers may have grown through restrictions being eased, the cut in benefits is likely to continue to rankle.

Expatriates comprise about 50 per cent of the airline's more than 2,000 pilots.
Locally hired pilots, trained for 14 months in Adelaide at a cost funded by Cathay of HK$1.2 million each, number around 300. Eventually, they receive a HK$24,000 monthly housing allowance, but only when they reach the rank of captain. From second officer, becoming a captain usually takes at least 10 years.



Maria Yu Chi-sum, the airline's corporate communications manager, said, "The airline is expanding quickly."


Now was a "superb" time to join the airline, she said. "During Sars in 2003, we had to park many planes in the desert. Last year, because of the economic downturn, all our staff had to take no-pay leave of two to four weeks. But as the economy has rebounded and our airline is expanding, you can get promoted much faster now than before."

Not all the pilots agreed. The local pilot who spoke for the union said the change to the benefits structure could lead to a high turnover rate when the economy was good.
"At international airlines like Qantas and British Airways, just one salary package is applied to everybody. Everyone wanted to stay put during the economic downturn. But many local pilots like me, after having endured the unfair salary treatment for so many years, are considering switching to another airline when the economy picks up," he said.

[freightdog188]

"oooooooooohh ...big shiny jets!"

that's what they're thinking

[Dragon69]

But many local pilots like me, after having endured the unfair salary treatment for so many years, are considering switching to another airline when the economy picks up," he said.

Interesting how many use the state of the economy as an excuse for not making the switch. Well the economy has been in the gutter for only one year or so. There WERE and ARE many opportunities to switch to another airline, but how many LEPs HAVE and WILL actually make the switch???? All talk and no action!!!

Nothing against improving the salary package of LEPs, but to use discrimination and unfair treatment as a motive is utter crap and only divides the two groups even more.

[Harbour Dweller]

Maria Yu Chi-sum, the airline's corporate communications manager, said, "The airline is expanding quickly."

Now was a "superb" time to join the airline, she said. "During Sars in 2003, we had to park many planes in the desert. Last year, because of the economic downturn, all our staff had to take no-pay leave of two to four weeks. But as the economy has rebounded and our airline is expanding, you can get promoted much faster now than before.

More management bulls#*t. What have they been taking in CX communications!

S/O's currently taking +4 hrs to upgrade & it's only going to get worse.

Did Miss Chi-sum miss the memo containing all the reasons why time to command is going to be much longer than 10yrs.

1) RA65
2) New FTL's designed to reduce crewing levels
3) Freighter aircraft being sold to Air China Cargo
etc etc

[Rod Von Eddington]

There is obviously no mental checks involved when Cathay hires new cadets. Seems like Francis and Chang are in dire need of a reality check, yes those jets are really shiny but it very fast gets old being jet-lagged all the time and flying cargo around Asia when your body wants to sleep, and you thought you would have exotic layovers in New York and Paris, and especially at the offered pay....

I hope Francis' wife is ready to take on a second job which will be required since they plan to live an expat life in Hong Kong with a family on a Second Officer salary for 4 years with no housing allowance! Or maybe she should just learn Arabic right away instead, so she is ready for the move they will be making to Emirates after a couple of years....

[crwjerk]

A banker and a doctor......... Sad to see cadet hopefuls who actually have a passion for flying get knocked back.

[Bye Bye Baby]

Oh yes Mr Cathay I really have wanted to be a pilot my whole life, really thats why you became a Dr or an investment banker. At least we are getting the right candidates.
Can't wait to see Mr Travis' next article in 3 years time.

[Ex Cathedra]

Investment banker and doctor?

They must be out of their friggin' mind...
I wonder how long it'll take them to be crying for their old jobs back?

Well, at least they have something to fall back on, unlike stupid old me who thought aviation was going to be a lifetime bread and butter provider.

[Neptunus Rex]

Why should they give up their former professions? The Investment Banker now has access to 2,000 plus potential clients, whereas the Physician can become avmed qualified and charge a handsome fee for conducting aircrew medicals on his days off. With the number of hypochondriacs amongst the cabin crews, he could hold surgeries in his hotel room on layovers. Perhaps they are not so stupid.

[flyingkiwi]

Rod Von Eddington

How arrogant are you to say that no person should try to fulfil there dream to be a pilot or are you the only one allowed. I know this person very well and infact he came to me and asked about which flying school he should train at so that he could do the GA route into the industry, i recommended the cadet program as a great option for him as it will save 4-10 years of GA hardship. BTW his wife was prepaired to support him through GA so it shows what kind of women she is, i think there are a lot of CX pilots out there that would appreciate having a wife so supportive.

Yes the cadet program and Conditions are not ideal but in his shoes when he is deciding to pursue his dream the cadet program is a whole lot more attractive than the current GA industry.

Try having a look around at current oppurtunities for someone with 0hrs. They are looking at 10+ years till they touch a jet, most of this time is on $0 salary. So no they are not out of there mind they are just unlucky enough to have missed the good times that we were lucky enough to have been in time to enjoy.

[ReverseFlight]

Hopefully the investment bankers and doctors of this world have accumulated enough wealth to let them survive the lean years. Better still, and to show their commitment, why not use that money to get CPL and frozen ATPL and then apply as a pre-qualified cadet ? Makes the story from stethoscope to sidestick a little more convincing.

[holdmetight]

They must be out of their friggin' mind...
I wonder how long it'll take them to be crying for their old jobs back?

I don't see any problem with what these two people are doing. Years later at retirement age, would you want to look back and wish you HAD done something to realize your dream to fly, instead of baulking at the massive paycut? I understand there is a large opportunity cost involved in making a leap like that but if you think about it - there is an even larger opportunity cost if you choose to give up your passion.

I don't know Chang and Francis personally but judging from where they were in life before they chose to make a career change, I'd say it would be stupid to assume they were totally uninformed about what they were getting themselves into. You don't become an investment banker or doctor without a decent amount of common sense and foresight.

[flyingkiwi]

all well and good but as any of us diect entry types will atestify to, to get to direct entry level takes 10 + years of hardship, if given the chance to circumvent that especially if already in your 30s off course you would take the oppurtunity like these guys have.

[Dragon69]

Nothing wrong with pursuing your dreams, but if they are going through with this because of their "love of flying" boy are they in for a big disappointment once the novelty wears off! After all these years why did they not at the very least pursue a PPL??

Interesting how in the past you had to demonstrate dedication and commitment to pursuing an aviation career before being accepted, now it seems you only have to show that you can financially cope with living in HKG.

[quadspeed]

I sympathize with anyone who really wants to fly. In fact, I have probably given up the best years of my life, a decade of income, the most of my liver and a train wreck of relationships while pursuing it. And I have flown my ass off. Almost literally, several times.

But someone should inform these gentlemen that what they are now embarking on has nothing to do with flying in the passionate term. Whatever they think flying is, this is not it. This is not where you start your career; this is where you finish it. This is where you give up any passion you once had in exchange for cold, hard cash. But cash, it seems, they already have.

The last thing any long-haul carrier needs from its Cadets is a passion for flying. They are the ones who become twisted and disillusioned as the realization dawns on them that the peak of their flying career was doing stalls on a Cessna 150, and whatever dreams brought them to their first solo will remain just that; dreams.

Some advice, gentlemen. Stay where you are and purchase an airplane instead.

[FIRESYSOK]

So what has happend to flight experience commensurate with age? When airlines start hiring "pilots" in the midst of their midlife crises, then you know they have hit rock bottom. Scraping the bottom of the barrel. This is what the US regional airlines do, sometimes with disaterous results. The Gulfstream Airlines programme in South Florida comes to mind with magazine commercials depicting the zero-to-hero making his transformation from construction worker to airline "pilot". Face it gentlemen, the days of this being a special career are decidedly over..

[Frogman1484]

After 14 years at Cx and doing mostly night flights...I wish I was a Doctor or an investment banker...uhmm!!

[flyingkiwi]

I am stunned by you guys, the most important thing from any pilot is passion to fly maybe you guys should be the ones looking elsewhere.

And BTW he did have a ppl, but didnt you always dream of flying for an airline...

Stop fighting the guys your problem should be with management and the system not thses guys trying to make a break.

I ask any of you guys to honestly say that you would have turned down the cadet program when you were starting out with 0- 50hrs. especially having missed out on say the airforce to to some reason like a recient car accident. If you say you would turn it down i know you are full of BS. I wouldnt of at that point you woud take any flying job offered.

[Freehills]

To be fair it says he was a legal & compliance officer. They are the people, usually vainly, trying to keep the front office bankers on the straight and narrow. Or, if they are very cynical, telling the front office what is the minimum they can get away with and stay on straight and narrow... I guess Q&A/ Standards & Quality would be airline equivalent

A very frustrating role in a bank, the rest of the bank regards you as a sneak who is trying to stop them getting rich and also as someone who couldn't cut it as a "real" banker

[Dragon69]

the most important thing from any pilot is passion to fly


You are missing the point! What does passion of flying have to do with any aspect of airline flying??? Reminds me of that old joke where a bush pilot overhears an airliner on the radio and says "hey xxx airlines what don't you come down here where the real flying is", to which the captain relies "why don't you come up here where the real money is"...how the hell would a Cathay cadet on the radio reply when there is no real flying and there is no real money?????



I ask any of you guys to honestly say that you would have turned down the cadet program when you were starting out with 0- 50hrs


At 41 years old with a wife and two kids and giving up a HKD $100k a month salary??? you bet your bottom dollar I would have turned it down. This sounds about as silly as a mid 40s man joining the army!!!!

There is no way that someone in their mid 40s that had an established career is going to last five years sitting on the jump seat as an SO earning peanuts. Sooner or later the novelty will wear off and they will leave having ticked the box under airline pilot. This only serves to cheapen our profession!

Can't help but think that this is nothing more than a selfish attitude, fits a banker's profile perfectly. So if his wife tells him that it was her dream of becoming a Hollywood actress, will he give up everything, become a waiter in some run down diner in LAX and support her??

[pill]

These guys coming and going in short time can't do anything other than strengthen the position of those of us in window seats who stay. I guess it's reassuring they're not looking for the next generation of cx pilots in rice paddies.

[geh065]

You lot are sad. It must be awful hating your job, bitching and moaning about it all the time that even in your spare time away from the job you come on here to sh!t on other people's passion and dreams.

[Dragon69]

Actually geh065 rest assured if all of us were previously doctors/lawyers/bankers, etc, there would be a for sale sign at the main entrance of Cathay, because there would be no one left to crew the airplanes.

It is idiots like yourself that are completely oblivious to what's happening around you and accept everything for what it is. What a society we live in where we think anything is attainable at the expense of your own family. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[smilingknife]

Maria Yu Chi-sum, the airline's corporate communications manager, said, "The airline is expanding quickly."


Now was a "SUPERB" time to join the airline, she said. "During Sars in 2003, we had to park many planes in the desert. Last year, because of the economic downturn, all our staff had to take no-pay leave of two to four weeks. But as the economy has rebounded and our airline is expanding, YOU CAN GET PROMOTED MUCH FASTER NOW THAN BEFORE." :=

Where do they get these "spokespeople" from?
They couldn't lie straight in bed at night.
They must attend a Cathay course in saying whatever comes into your head with fingers crossed behind your back.

FFS, when will the lies ever end.
A "SUPERB" time to join the airline! For whom may I ask? The cadet or the manager reaping the bonus for screwing another human over.

"YOU CAN GET PROMOTED MUCH FASTER NOW THAN EVER BEFORE"
That's hilarious.
Maria Yu Chi-sum - tell that to the SO's staring down the barrel of 5 years to promotion to JFO and 20 years to command- with a company that refuses to pay contractual bypass pay.

Here's a hint Maria, you should pay a visit to FOP's once in a while and find out a few facts before making up your spin for the media.

[hongkongfooey]

100K a month down to 30 odd, then in 5 years 60 odd, then in 15 years ( command ) 120 odd, so at retirement I reckon he will only be around 500K worse off overall.
Yep, once the novelty of sitting in the jumpseat eating sandwiches wears off, he might just regret it :{

[Dragon69]

try again HKfooey,

Assuming he works until 65 he has 23 years left. A more realistic scenario is S/O 5 years F/O 15 years Cap 3 years. Taking into account the yearly increments the numbers are;

S/O HKD $1.9
F/O HKD $13.0
CAP HKD $3.7
TOTAL HKD $18.6 mil

Assuming an average monthly income of HKD $120k (which is more than conservative) from now until he retires from his current position.

Banker HKD $33.1 mil

That is a whopping HKD $14.5 mil difference, nearly 2 USD million. Or he would have to work half the time (12 years) as a banker to achieve the same amount (23 years) with Cathay. It is just insane!!!

Tell you what, money is not everything, but that amount would have bought this banker way more dreams than the cadet program ever will, not to mention the quality of life he would have been able to provide for his wife and kids.

[T-Mass]

Having been paddling around the DESO pool now for exactly 2 years I have two questions:

1) Can I have the Morgan Stanley job instead?

2) Are the sandwiches any good?

[Fly747]

Dragon, their dream is to fly, they don't mention having dreamt of flying for CX. After a couple of years here they will be highly employable elsewhere having been trained by the world's greatest. Your calculations assume that they stay, I'm sure we all agree that this experiment will only end one way.

[Dragon69]

Fair enough Fly 747, but bear in mind that they are not being employed as DEFO. They are starting as SOs with zero time. How are they going to be highly employable having only S/O time in their log book. They most likely won't be employable until the 2nd year as F/O, in which case that would mean 7 years at Cathay before they can be employed elsewhere. Then they would have to start at the bottom again. Leaving for another airline will only work in their favour assuming that most of the equivalent paying airlines in 7 years time are still expanding like mad and time to command is relatively quick.

[Captain Dart]

If flying is in fact these individuals' 'dreams', are they flying privately to at least 'give it a go' before sacrificing all for a potential life of staring at a sky the color of Oprah Winfrey's bum all night, jet lag, shouting at Delhi Control, crappy hotels and aggressive management?

There are some stunning high-performance modern light aircraft out there, warbirds, aerobatic aircraft, even some of the 'light sports' are fantastic if they are on a budget, and there are places such as Australia, NZ and the States to go and fly them, even if it's only a few times a year. Now that's something to 'dream' about...and as for first solo, they'll never forget it.

And before you ask 'why does Captain Dart fly airliners then', it is because he is not a banker or doctor; it's so he can fly light aircaft for fun, and he commenced his airline career in the long-gone 'good old days'; cadets joining on current conditions would be lucky if they could afford a motorized parachute.

[geh065]

It is idiots like yourself that are completely oblivious to what's happening around you and accept everything for what it is. What a society we live in where we think anything is attainable at the expense of your own family.

Actually, I am well aware of what is happening but that does not mean that I have to lose the passion for flying. Remember that feeling of how you wanted to be a pilot no matter what? That feeling of awe watching an airliner lift off into the air? Well fortunately for some of us, that feeling does not go away. It does not mean I accept all the bad things that happen in our profession, far from it. We all know that flying is not what it used to be in terms of remuneration and even in terms of glamour and recognition but I know that I would not give it up for an office job, no matter what. 9-5 in an office? Not for me thank you and I am sure most here would agree.

We all have a bit of a moan every now and then but I just like to see the glass half full sometimes and sh!tting on the dreams of budding young aviatiors is most definately where I draw the line. Make them aware of the real terms and conditions for sure, but I will always encourage a youngster to persue aviation if that is their passion because money cannot replace that.

[Dragon69]

geh065,

Are you involved with your local flying club?? Most people that I know that have a passion for flying are in some way or another involved with GA and get more satisfaction out of flying light airplanes than flying for Cathay. Everyone but you it seems sees this job as what it is, just a job! Actually if I could slide into another career earning 3/4 of what I now earn I will happily leave. This job is so regulated, controlled, monitored that there is no longer any job satisfaction, not to mention that morale is so low that there isn't any camaraderie left anymore.

Furthermore we are not talking about a "youngster" or a "budding young aviator", we are talking about a 41 year old individual at the peak of his banking career with a family. If he were a close friend of mine I would try anything and everything to dissuade him from this cadet scheme. you can be naive and foolish when you're young, but being naive and foolish in your 40s is plain stupid.

This is not a dream of accomplishing a challenging feat like sailing around the world, it is a dream to tick the box of having been an airline pilot. OK done that now what???

[ecuk]

Sorry to sidetrack here but isn't he 36 not 41? So that's 29 years of flying ahead of him if he sticks with it to 65. I personally think there's more courage involved in his decision than stupidity as some would suggest. Come on guys it's a great job even if it meant eating sandwiches for the initial 4 years. After a couple of years as FO he'd have enough hours to go anywhere should he wishes to. For a guy with investment knowledge and a good wife, he's got more of a chance of making a bit more on the side and provide for his family well enough than some.

[flyingkiwi]

Interesting stories.
I am just wondering how someone can have the personality to be sucessfull in the greedy egoistic world of investment banking and then be a good companion in a flight deck.
Considering the guys next to me at work, I enjoy sharing a day with nearly all of them tremendously.
But they all lack the ellbow-mentality you need to become sucessfull in banking life.
As was said before, something seemed to have gone very wrong here in selection.

Have you meet this guy? do you know him? have you drunk beers with him? if not then you have no idea. I have and if you had you would apollogise to him but i guess you are too much of a !@#$$ to admit you were wrong.

Criticizise the company policy for hiring cadets criticizie the package and what ultimately it will do to our package but unless you know the individual shut the #@#@@#$ up

[iceman50]

Flyingkiwi

Think you had a few too many beers when you typed in your last comments!

[flyingkiwi]

Maybe, actually it was a stonger colourless liquid, but I dont like personal sledging when people havnt even meet the person concerned.

It seems like these guys are being treated almost like those during the recruitment ban yet the AOA has not even said anything about them joining.

As for the decision it is their personal joice, right or wrong, in this guys case working 12-13hr days monday to friday would be a compelling reason to look to change vocation. But at the end of the day like the rest of us its his choice and if it was such a bad decision maybe you should ask him if you could have his old job..

[Sidewinder123]

I've been monitoring this forum for a while and generally won't comment unless there something I feel strongly about, like this issue here.

I have to say I agree with flyingkiwi and geh065, you guys bitching on those two cadets are crossing the line. So maybe they are giving up their lucrative careers for far less pay and benefit, but it's their choice. Just because some of you guys are starting to regret your career choices dosen't mean they will regret theirs. And in case you haven't read the article, both were tough choices to make, they did'nt decide on a whim to become pilots. Besides, one is in his early 30's and the second is in his mid-30's, they aren't that old, we aren't talking about someone in his late 40's and 50's where a career change is more difficult.

With pilots like you attacking each other, no wonder Management finds it so easy to deal with us. In fact, that what Management wants, us attacking each other.

Bottom line, we are like to bitch and moan, you can say a pilot career ain't that glamourous or CX isn't really the best choice (on that particular issue I think we can agree), but attacking someone's passion and desire to fly is hitting below the belt and I can't let that pass.

[flyingkiwi]

thanks sidewinder, well said.

[flyhardmo]

To all the people who believe the love of flying should get you into the cadet program and in the pointy end of cx aircraft.
What about all of those pilots who took the GA route, actually flew an aircraft hands on and whose dream was also to work for an airline. They can't get into cx anymore because of the cadet program and people like the article mentioned willing to take the role. Is that fair :=. While i'm not attacking these people as individuals, I am pissed off that in a few yrs my T&C's will be on the line because cx can attract individuals who were earning quite a bit more, to take a pay cut and work for peanuts.
I think this is the point that most of us are trying to get across in objection to the cadet program.

[Dragon69]

I've been monitoring this forum for a while and generally won't comment unless there something I feel strongly about, like this issue here.

Why do some have to state the above?? Do you think that you're somehow extra special and believe that your opinion holds extra merit because you comment on special occasions? :ugh::ugh: Get real!

With pilots like you attacking each other, no wonder Management finds it so easy to deal with us. In fact, that what Management wants, us attacking each other.

Management finds it easy to deal with us because they know that there is always someone out there willing to do the job for a lot less. I don't have a problem with a young aspiring aviator trying to make it, but I do with someone who has an established career earning a very good salary and willing to come for nothing.

Do you think it is coincidence that this article is published with the start of pay rise negotiations? It basically sends the message to the public that anyone can become an airline pilot in 14 months, and that our worth is really only a third of a doctor's and banker's salary. All you need is that childhood dream of becoming an airline pilot. Go on tick the box and don't worry about the sub standard salary package.

Yes FlyingKiwi, right or wrong in the end it is his choice, this is a forum and we are all free to state our opinions. Future candidates need to hear both sides of the story ( no matter how unpleasant we come across), not just the fairy tale stories. However, you are incorrect when you say criticize the company for offering the package. When you persuade friends of yours to join on this package you are actually degrading your own.

Assuming he never left his previous post, how would he feel if I went to his employer and said; Listen I've always wanted to work in the banking industry, just provide me with 14 months of training at no salary, and then I will agree to work for a third of what you pay these other guys. How secure do you think his package and employment will be???

As someone already stated, there is only one way this experiment will end. Enough said on this topic, just hope he doesn't eventually come after you with a baseball bat......sorry cricket bat!

[flyingkiwi]

I agree but we wont achieve anything by attacking these people, saying to them dont join wont work as there are 10's of thousands of applicants. we need to somehow lobby the company for a decent deal.

My 2 cents worth now were not debating character.

I think there is a place for the cadet program for applicants with 0- maybe 100hrs. CX puts a lot of money into there taining, so they should have to do a return of service.. 4years?? then they go onto a "HK based package" which includes the housing.

i disagree with the newly developed short course. i think this is the danger to our COS, this is a CX work around for guys that should be hired as direct entry. This is the first fight the AOA should be having, stopping this scheme and go back to direct entry SO hiring. If they insist on this course then the return of service should be less, 2 years then onto the "HK based package"


just my thoughts

[Sidewinder123]

Sorry to break it to you Dragon69, but it looks like you are the one who needs to get real. There has been and always will be people who switched careers to get into this field, however way they can, like it or not, that's just how the world works. You may have a problem with that, but you are delusional to think you can dictate whether others can join CX. So long as the cadet programme exist, you can't blame them for joining. As I said, the passion for flying will be always be there, attacking that desire is reprehensible and completely self-defeating and won't fix the issue.

Slamming them won't change things one bit. Do you honestly think the cadets gives a f*** what you think? The problem is not with them, but with the system, the cadet programme. So long as that programme remains as it is, all your objections will go to waste.

Use your head and think about it, Management makes us hate these new cadets, which weakens solidarity, which gives them a stronger hand.

Stop wasting time and energy directing your wrath at the cadets, that's what management wants and it's not going to improve things one bit. Direct your anger at the system.

So, it's time to wise-up Dragonair69, and see what's really going on.

[Dragon69]

Ooooohhhh Post number 6!!!!

At 36 just because an easy opportunity becomes available you call that passion for flying or following your dreams!!!! Sounds like you've had things handed to you on a silver platter. Tell you what, pull your head out of your ass and speak to those individuals who've had to do whatever was necessary to pursue their dreams, like getting **** jobs in Africa, the Arctic, etc. Then perhaps you will get an appreciation and understanding of what it means to have passion.

I am strong believer that this cadet scheme should ONLY be open to locals from Hong Kong. They are the ones who have almost no means of pursuing a career in aviation. It is utter BS how the company claims that there isn't enough local talent when there is plenty.


Use your head and think about it, Management makes us hate these new cadets, which weakens solidarity, which gives them a stronger hand.

Where the hell do you get your logic from???? Managers don't give a (how did you put it) f*** whether or not you support the international cadets. Furthermore what new cadet is going to fight the overall fight when they view you as a fat cat??

Stop wasting time and energy directing your wrath at the cadets, that's what management wants and it's not going to improve things one bit. Direct your anger at the system.

So what are YOU going to do about it???

Also I am not dictating who can and cannot join the cadet scheme. We are debating the folly of this one individual's decision, and the decision of others who have respected, well paid careers and are ready to throw it away with indirect consequence to the profession as a whole.

[Sidewinder123]

As I said, seems like you are the one who needs to get the head out of your ass. Life ain't fair. Some are born richer or poorer. Some have better chances and other's don't. Deal with it. If you want things to change just sitting and complaining isn't going to do jack for you. I had crappy jobs flying **** planes here and there before I landed at CX. Why? I took the initiative to change my circumstances. But bitching and moaning is all I hear from you. And you haven't answer my original question, if you are not satisfed with the cadet programme, what are you going to do about it, Dragon69?

[Dragon69]

Wow sidewinder123 you must be on a roll today.

But bitching and moaning is all I hear from you

And what is it that you are doing here???? If not bitching and moaning about current topics certainly bitching and moaning about us bitching and moaning.!!

Welcome to PPRUNE!

[Sidewinder123]

Yeah I guess I have turned into a ppruner, after all.

But, I want to hear some solutions for a change, you know. Or at least suggestions to improve the cadet programme.

[Dragon69]

Ok, for one thing start with the little things like if you have friends in other careers and interested in this scheme try and dissuade them from joining.

[sirhcttarp]

Anyone consider the fact that maybe they don't NEED to work and are doing it for the fun of it?

That's the kind of guy in a position to not get pushed around by management.

[minglestar]

I wonder what Dragon69's reaction would be if it were a lowly ground staff / office marketing/accounting staff joining the cadet program? Would D69 being saying the same and trying to dissuade the ground/office staff from "throwing away" his/her career as a ground/office staff?

Seems like some here thinks the piloting profession is an exclusive club and no one, except for the few (well-connected), is welcome to join. Saying that getting accepted to the cadet program with zero experience means compromising safety is alike to bashing the cadet training program.

There's nothing wrong with his two guys pursuing their dreams and passion. If they wanted to "throw away" their previous well-established career and make their family "suffer" ... well, that's their and their family's decision, and doesn't concern anyone else. I salute this two for having the courage to follow their passion, even if that means starting from scratch. Not many of us can have the courage (and means) to do it. They might be already financially secure for the rest of their lives, and don't need to concern with the lowly cadet's salary ... you can call it unfair or whatever ... but that's not anyone else business either.

[IFB]

Dragon

If as you say this thread is all about an individuals decision to give up a well paid and respected job to join CX then who the hell are you to criticise them?

You don't know these individuals or what their circumstances are so how on earth can you make such critical statements based on the minuscule amount of info you have.

He might only have made a few posts but I have to agree with sindwinder123.

[pasa001]

Well I'm very happy for these two gentlemen and their career decisions. I just hope they realize that the new flight time limitations are in the works and the relief pilots will end up being the ones burnt out. After a month of flying through the night with little or no rest I think the novelty of flying big jets will fade quickly!

[SMOC]

What about a BA or QF cadet? As there are many in CX, the most senior Captain in CX is a ex QF cadet and I believe the current director of flight operations was a cadet.

[minglestar]

Everyone has to start somewhere. Just because one doesn't go through the GA path doesn't make him/her less qualify, or less worthy of the cadetship. Seems like the theme here is that "I have 'done my time' in the GA and regionals, therefore all new entrants must 'do their time' as well". I have to side with Sidewinder here, life ain't fair, get use to it.

I also feel it is a 'no, no' to criticize the commitment to and passion for aviation of the cadets with 0hr experience. (You might not even personally know these people.) Just because the cadet has no prior experience doesn't mean he/she is any less committed and less passionate about aviation. They might not have to means and resources to learn flying when they were younger. The area/region they grew up in might not have easy access to GA. They might have to work at jobs that can provide for their needy family first (and now financially secure, they take up on their real passion.) There are just too many reasons. We all have to start somewhere. Give these cadets a break. I bet you were given many breaks in your career before reaching the position you are in now.

[ReverseFlight]

For those who don't know the real difference between a banker and a pilot, it's the banker who does not have duty time limitations. :ugh:

Remember the story of the New York finance lawyer who had a heart attack while at work ? He was checked into hospital but back at his desk 48 hours later, sending numerous emails to clients apologising profusely about his temporary absence and consequential inability to reply timely to their emails. :}

[main_dog]

That's because when the banker has a heart attack, he doesn't risk taking 400 people with him... :}

[EXEZY]

But when they act irresponsibly, like they have been, they screw the world for 99% of the population.

[Captain Dart]

There is a distinct lack of activity on the Fragrant Harbour Wannabees Forum lately! Do I detect a certain lack of interest in a housing-allowanceless and commandless career with Cathay Pacific Airways?

[Starting Blocks]

There is a distinct lack of activity on the Fragrant Harbour Wannabees Forum lately! Do I detect a certain lack of interest in a housing-allowanceless and commandless career with Cathay Pacific Airways?

No, what you detect is a certain lack of interest in reading answers from people like you, stuck in their time warp.

The moaners and whiners here simply disgust me. In case none of you take any interest in what's going on in the world, let me enlighten you - wherever you look, companies are cutting costs, laying off staff and reducing benefits. If you're in Europe rather than Asia it's even worse, if you're 50 or over then you may as well forget any chance of working again.

Trouble is, you and your sort have lived for so long with your heads up your arses that you probably will never understand that there are queues of intelligent, qualified people who would give anything to have the jobs that you have, yet treat with open contempt. You're surprised that no-one wants to hear your views? Well that just shows that you are not only arrogant, but stupid as well.

[rick.shaw]

Starting Blocks - Or maybe management wind up/wannabe. I see you were booted from another thread for your arrogant remarks(pot:kettle).

Although many comments here are charged with emotion, the underlying feeling is the same - negative. And rightly so. Some people express themselves somewhat differently to how you or even I may find pleasing. That's human nature.

CX has, over the years, slashed here, slashed there and gotten away with virtually no payrises or any other benefits increases for at least the last decade+. In addition, they have gotten quite a productivity increase out of their pilots and possibly more to come for nothing in return. All this while the cost of living, education, housing etc goes up steadily. What people are saying is 'enough is enough'! We all know times have changed, but there is only so much people can take a hit on.

The lack of housing allowance for expats coming to HKG now make this job marginal for many people. It will suit single and unattached people, but those who are married and/or have kids will struggle to have any semblance of a decent lifestyle here without housing allowance or other income means - that is a fact. A starting salary of 30K a month can easily be swallowed up by 15-20k worth of rent for a half decent place to live.

[TopTup]

Ahhhh....bet(youget)pumped(regularly)5(timesaday)

Still coming out with informative comments and words of wisdom! Turning to personal attack when unable to argue from an informed or logical stance.

So, to allow others to know your platform (information from your previous posts):

1. a guy who went from flying school to 737 because daddy paid for the endorsement and training, then CX as DEFO on the 74F;
2. a guy who advocates the lowered and lowering conditions borne by the cadets in order to allow one group of CX pilots to suffer financial loss so (as you said in your previous posts) as you see it, you don't have to. After all, someone has to take the hit and it's better it's someone else rather than yourself (again, to quote YOU);
3. a guy who is a member of the AoA advocating for the division of rights and financial reward of some for his own personal gain;
4. a guy who offers cadets words of wisdom from how, what and when to even the role of female pilots at CX;
5. a guy who is so busy feathering his own nest at the expense of others (own admission) that can't wait to throw pure and utter abuse on this forum to anyone with a differing opinion;
6. a guy who admitted to having to change his username in case others discovered who he was and hence retribution due previous (work) history.

Still fancy a punch-up? I'd hate to see your man-bag scratched during a scuffle outside Volume..... Then again, daddy will buy you a new one.

To quote yourself: "I will agree with one thing though- My housing allowance as a DEFO makes it all worth it" and yet you push so vehemently for more cadets to take the job and lower the general T's & C's, again, just so you can be comfortable. Again, TO QUOTE FROM YOU.

As I said in my PM to you: you are the lowest of them all. Hiding behind an AOA membership yet advocating and pushing for the lesser T & C's of your colleagues. If people wish to join CX from the CEP then so be it, but to act as you do is at the height of arrogance.

Someone asked for advice a while ago, but you immediately and for no reason jumped on your deluded high horse telling him/her to shove their thumb up their ar$e, and here you want to fight. Wow. What a piece of :mad: you are.

To Francis and Chan: good luck! bet(youget)pumped(regularly)5(timesaday) is thanking you for keeping him in the lifestyle he thinks he deserves.

No, as said before, I don't work for CX but have good friends in senior roles who do. They have to fight day and night against scum like you ruining the airline they worked so hard for and were once proud of.

I just think people should be aware of from which source and the type of charactor this dirt is who wants to punch others for having a different opinion to himself.

bet(youget)pumped(regularly)5(timesaday), if you want to argue me, then do so via a PM. Don't waste the administrators or others time here.

[Flap10]

Still fancy a punch-up? I'd hate to see your man-bag scratched during a scuffle outside Volume :D:D:D:ok:

CLASSIC!

Sounds like the only thing he pumps 5 time a day is his little willy! What an idiot!

[betpump5]

Flaps 10,

Great contribution.

TopTup,

I was going to reply via PM so that we don't air our dirty laundry in public (nor waste admin time) but I remeber you telling me via PM that you had blocked me if I were to reply.

I think I need to explain something here.

Last year, I started defending the cadet programme and wannabees who wanted to apply from the personal attacks that were coming from "colleagues" of mine.

It was so damn obvious that the attacks were based on the ridiculous notion that with the cadet programme going international (and the fact there was no housing allowance) ,current ex-pat pilots would suddenly overnight lose their salary, housing benefits and girls in Wanchai...blah blah zzzz.

In my defence of the programme, I happened to mention in my replies that I find it ironic how my ex-pat "colleagues" were dumping all over the dreams and passion of these applicants yet it is the cadet programme itself ,albeit indirectly, that will probably keep most of these guys in their jobs for a good deal longer with a "reasonable" ex-pat. package.

This does NOT mean in any way that I was advocating a cadet programme for the sole reason of "keeping me comfortable". Do you understand this or shall I draw you a picture in crayon? Only a black-and-white person like you would be able to dig up this type of dirt from my replies.

Do you seriously think there is a conspiracy theory where the only reason we have a CPP with no housing benefit is to "keep us comfortable"? Give me a break!

And this thread says it all. We have an investment banker and a doctor on the programme yet because they left $100K per month jobs to join an industry that pays $35k, people think they should be thrown into a mental ward. Sod the fact that these guys with families had to make difficult decisions to change jobs, study from scratch. No, lets take the p1ss out of them and make jokes.

[betpump5]

Anyone consider the fact that maybe they don't NEED to work and are doing it for the fun of it?sirhcttarp,

How dare you come here spouting such nonsense. Don't you know the rules of the Fragrant Harbour? The "F" word is a forbidden word for Cathay Pilots that post on Pprune.

Being a CX pilot is all about moaning and whinging about pollution, moaning about Cadets, moaning about salary- basically moaning about life in general .

[MidgetBoy]

Big shiny jets? Wrong airline then..

[Private Pile]

Being a CX pilot is all about moaning and whinging about pollution, moaning about Cadets, moaning about salary- basically moaning about life in general

Errr, isn't that just being a pilot full stop!?!?!? :}

Sadly, as with most industries nowadays, terms and conditions will be dictated by market forces. Truth is, the market wants to fly for less money than it costs to ride a train over the same distance so until lots of planes start crashing and "would be" pilots (as well as current aviators) turn their backs on flying careers then we will continue to be bent over and rogered...

[El Lobo Solo]

Ah, the love of flying. What a useless sentiment that management knows they can exploit.

[Pollution IV]

At the risk of stirring this heated pot even further, I'd like to add another point re the folly that is the expanded cadet program.

Disregarding the effects of setting a ridiculously low benchmark for remuneration and the rights and wrongs of age suitability, family sacrifices and 'achieving ones dreams'; lets focus for a minute, not on our personal gripes or beliefs on what is best for us, but what is best for this industry and the traveling public - yes that's right, the reason for us having aviation jobs in the first place!

Given there seems to be no plan to ever recruit experienced pilots again, I believe CX (and KA) have gone dangerously off track in considering that the Cadet Scheme can be the sole source for new joiners to the company. The truth is, cadet schemes are little more than a burden on the trng system and in particular the Capts who need to manage the experience levels (or lack thereof) on the fltdeck. In their relentless push to increase profits, Management are happy to lean even more heavily on the experienced pilots in the company, expecting a safe operation with ever decreasing competency levels. Why? -because Management ultimately won't be held responsible if a fatigued Capt makes a mistake on an appch due to not being able to get adequate rest in the cruise, as he doesn't trust the inexperienced cadet pilot to watch the shop. At KA it's even worse, as the cadet SO's are put straight into the right seat and are the the only safety back-up in one of the most challenging flying environments in the World - China.

This risk has been manageable until now, due to the proportion of cadet pilots being relatively low. Even current Expat 2nd officers often have an abundance of good quality pre-CX experience behind them. It's a charming egalitarian notion to pander to individuals who wish to change career in their late 30's, but the reality of having a mature age inexperienced guy doing OJT, suffering the stress of raising a family on a grossly inadequate income, resentful of the trap that he has fallen into and can't get out of until he's actually got some form of qualification (at ~7 yr mark) and who wants the same rest as the other aging dudes on the crew, is a patently unfair situation to visit upon existing CX/KA pilots.

I recently found myself being sounded-out by one of the Western cadet hopefuls up here for his selection process. He was blissfully unaware of the real costs and realities of living in HK. Yes the job is better than his current one, but when prompted to consider the future for his wife and himself let alone when/if kids arrive, the grave financial situation was a real eye-opener for him. Now, this guy was far from simple, I think the reason he was considering this job with it's low pay scale was due to the popular, long-held misconception that we expats pilots are massively overpaid and that it was still quite affordable to live here without the housing or to just commute. At least he is now aware of the real story and can make a truly informed decision without the rose coloured glasses that CX like to slap on these guys & girls. I do appreciate my job and at the time, I found myself wanting to speak highly of it, but realised that at the pay level on offer, it would be a huge injustice to perpetrate on this guy.

CX is simply trying what every other carrier is doing - cut costs, but at what cost to safety? Airline managers are kidding themselves if they think that cutting competency levels so drastically is going to have little effect on the operation.... or perhaps they do and they justy don't care. The HKCAD needs to recognise it's in an unusual position of having a major carrier with no pilot feeder system, apart from its own Trng dept. The CAD should impose constraints on the no. of cadets CX employs and a ratio of 'cadet to other pilot' on the fltdeck should be set, until the cadet reaches a level of relative competency (perhaps ~7 yrs). After all, Airline Managers are in no way experts on levels of proficiency in a flying operation, and I'm sure the FLTOPS Pilot Managers are hardly going to stick there heads up in defiance, just to get them chopped off. The cadets themselves may have the potential to be highly capable pilots, however, the CX/KA trng system is simply not resourced sufficiently well to cope with trng nothing but low hrs pilots to a standard that would be anywhere near equivalent to extant levels. I believe it is the preservation of standards in new recruits and thus safety, that most of us are truly concerned about, not just preserving our CoS or what we personally consider is a reasonable income for an expat in HK.

Notwithstanding, it can and will get worse...just wait until the MPL (Multi-crew Pilot Licence), comes into being. Those cadets will receive only about 1/3 of the actual flying hrs that our cadets currently get in Adelaide - scary stuff! Does any other profession have to put up with this rubbish? :yuk:

[Harbour Dweller]

Pollution IV,

:D An excellent, well balanced & honest post.

[frampton]

BCF - no, not Beef Chicken or Fish or the Halon extinguisher product.

This is your main enemy; Bean Counters Fraternity.

Unite and combat this "world-wide" festering sore.

[iMad]

Pollution V, very well-written and balanced post. I'd agree 100% standards will go down the drain IF that is indeed what CX is doing, training purely low-hour pilots.

But the sad fact is that this is just an attack on conditions, as CX is putting experienced pilots (those with same qualifications as current DESOs, even DEFOs) through a super short "cadet" course (read Finesse course), and voila! You've got yourself "Cadet-Scale" guys with a wealth of experience.

Guys, this is the new C-Scale. Protect Housing for these new guys or the whole A-scale B-scale saga will repeat itself.