Position fixing from ATC during QXC - is it allowed?

[beammeupscottie]

Sorry to go banging on about yet ANOTHER cross-country question, but after 2 failed attempts, I don't want it all to go wrong on my 3rd attempt!. .. .If you become unsure of your position for any reason during your QXC, will you fail again should you ask for assistance, such as a postion fix, QDM, etc? (I know it shouldn't happen, but just in case...). .. .I've talked about this with various persons, and nobody seems sure - some say you will be marked down for asking for help on your QXC, others say that to ask for help, rather than bungle on, is a sign of good airmanship, so should not go against you.. .. .Can anyone advise me on this at all? - Thanks. .bmus

[SteveR]

IMHO, it's perfectly OK. Your QXC is kind of proving that you can find your way around outside the local area, and if you want to get fixes from ATC, then why not? Personally, at that stage in my training I wasn't comfy enough with the radio to do much more than request loining and janding information, so if you're happy to chirp up with a QDM call, then go for it.. .. .After all, you only have to get sigs from the fields you land at, and they are for your standard of airmanship:. .1. If you call an en-route station for a QDM nobody else will ever know. .2. A decently executed QDM call demonstrates good airmanship (provided they're a station equipped to answer you, and provided you do summat sensible with the info obtained).. .. .Would the people who say you shouldn't, approve of you cross cutting on VORs to position fix?. .. .Steve R

[DodgyFlyer]

On my QXC I became a bit unsure of my position, but instead of asking for a QDM I went straight to 121.5 and asked for a practice training fix, and quick as a flash they pin-pointed me to only a mile or two off track. . .. .In my humble inexperienced ppl non flying instructor opinion I'd pass you on your QXC if you'd demonstrated the ability to keep cool and ask for a QDM or training fix if unsure of position rather than panic and continue completely lost and end up going straight through a busy control zone.. .. .Good luck and don't give up!

[bertiethebadger]

Surely you must be safer asking for assistance rather than wallowing around the sky constantly looking down at a map, wondering if you are where you think you are.. .. .Anyway, who's going to know? So long as you ask a station that your not going to.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Why not, its just the same as using a VOR or two to fix your position. Surely the point of a QXC is to prove that you can find your way around using whatever means available (OK, GPS may be questionable).

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The rules allow it.. .. .WWW

[Ts&Ps]

I think any navigation aid (QDM, VOR, DME, ADF, GPS) not only could be used but actively should be. The spirit of the solo XC is one of dead reckoning but it shows good airmanship to cross-check a visual position with a second and even third source. Redundancy should never be penalised!. .. .I remember my solo XC a few years back, flown out of Ormond Beach, near Daytona, in Florida. It was great fun but at the time a little daunting as the familiar training area dissapeared. I had a VOR frequency tuned in the whole time, which was not required in the event, but it was reassuring to know I could fly a radial to a known position.

[niknak]

Communicate.......it's no good blundering in the hope that it'll turn out OK.. .Let us know at the first practical opportunity, more often than not we'll know that your on your QXC and the assistance will be tailored in a fashion that gives you the minimum help to enable you to get back on track. . .Sometimes we have to do more, and on those occasions we may feel obliged to note it on your QXC form. Personally, if this is the case I always ring the relavant CFI to let them know why I've written what I have, this explanation has enabled more than one QXC pilot to get through the test even though they've needed help.. .. .D + D are there to help, and they're always happy to do so with folk who really need assistance, but don't push your luck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 06 March 2002, 20:21: Message edited by: niknak ]</small>

[Monocock]

Word of advice..............You are travelling at 100 mph (for the sake of argument). Mark on your track lines 5 minute intervals and then if you do think you are lost,LOOK ABOUT YOU.. .. .You know (by the clock) where you should be and the most you can realistically be off track in 5 minutes is a few hundred metres.. .. .Works for me.

[spitfire747]

I would agree, demonstrating good airmanship is all about learning to fly. If you do become "temporairily Unsure of position" then you should use all available means to find out where you are. I do not think that anyone is going to peanalise you for using your head.. .. .Goodluck this time, do not worry about getting lost, just sit back and enjoy the ride.. .. .Spitty

[BEagle]

There is nothing to stop you asking for a QDM on your 150 Km cross-country. But if your navigation isn't up to scratch be very careful not to jump into the PPL Skill Test until it is - otherwise you could face a retest fee.. .. .Use of anything other than visual techniques on the navigation part of your PPl Skill Test is not permitted until the examiner is content with your visual techniques - and that doesn't include 'track crawling'!

[eyeinthesky]

BMUS: I am probably setting myself up for a barrage of abuse here, and I would like to point out that I have no problem of the idea that you should be able to use all methods to CONFIRM your position. However, I think you need to ask yourself what is the purpose of the QXC. I believe it is you confirming to yourself (and those waiting back at the flying school) that you can navigate safely from A-B-C using the techniques you have been taught (and maybe some of those you have picked up on PPrune!) in good weather (if the weather's marginal you should not have been sent). If in all of this you become so disorientated that you need a third agency to tell you where you are then you should be thinking of whether you need more training rather than worrying about whether it will mean you pass or fail. This is not just an exam-passing exercise. You are being trained in methods which in the worst case might save your life, and certainly will save you a lot of worry and potentially other units a lot of hassle if you can do them properly.. .. .The use of QDM/Radials etc comes in only to CONFIRM what you already know, for example in an area where confirming visual features are maybe sparse (such as Norfolk!).. .. .To summarise: Concentrate on getting your navigation to the point where you know where you are all the time without really having to sweat at it, and the passing or failing of a QXC will be an irrelevant question. You will also be a safer pilot in the long run.

[beammeupscottie]

Eyeinthesky. .. .I actually do agree with what you've said, with regards to using navigation aids to confirm where you are, (as opposed to hoping they'll help you if you're totally lost).. .. .In my case, perhaps I should explain a bit more: The first QXC that I did, I failed because I really DID get lost, and it was down to my own stupidity. When eventually back on track, (after a SEVERE infringement of controlled airspace), I followed that up by completely c*****g up the landing aerodrome circuit, (because I was so stressed out), mangling the landing, and completely infuriating the controllers. On that occasion, I EXPECTED to fail, and deserved to do so.. .. .On my second attempt, the weather, (although forecast good), closed in on me very quickly, and I had to return to base.. .. .The reason I ask the navaid / position fix question, is because I am petrified of accidentally infringing controlled airspace again. I am confident that I won't get lost, (know the route quite well), but a lot of it is extremely close to controlled airspace, and doesn't allow for too much deviation.. .. .In view of what I did the first time around, I don't think it will be looked on very favourably if I so much as put the nose of the aircraft into controlled airspace this time.. .. .On another note, I WOULD like to get through unscathed on the next go, because it is getting rather expensive!!. .. .Anyway, thanks to all for the comments.. .. .bmus

[bamboo]

I had to do it, and wasn't penalised, but I've been told that it can be different regarding which area of the country you come from, (and the mood of the ATC person!)

[Whirlybird]

beammeupscottie,. .. .I think just knowing that you can ask someone where you are if you need to, will mean you'll be just fine. I had a similar experience to you, but it was a few weeks after getting my PPL - I got lost in marginal vis, and was found 3 miles from Birmingham Airport. Everyone was extremely nice about it, but I was just terrified of it happening again. And stress when flying means your brain slows down, so you can't think clearly, so you get more stressed, so it affects your co-ordination and your feet stop working properly.... .. .I bought a GPS two weeks later. I was scared to do any more long trips without it. But I hardly ever used it. Just knowing I had it took off the pressure and so I was fine. And it sounds to me like FEAR of getting lost is your problem, rather than not being able to navigate.. .. .In my opinion the effects of stress and how to recognise them (preferably in advance) is something that isn't taught/discussed nearly enough in aviation, either before the PPL or after. Anyone else agree?

[eyeinthesky]

BMUS: I wonder where you operate from. It strikes me that to send you on a route which is very close to CAS as a QXC is perhaps inviting hassle, unless there is no alternative. Is another route perhaps a better choice?. .. .If not, is the CAS a CTR or is it an airway. If it is the former, you should not be scared of calling the ATC unit (in fact, airmanship would suggest it is a GOOD idea) and telling them who you are and where you are going. The chances are then that they will keep an eye on you and will warn you before you get yourself in trouble. We are generally a friendly bunch, you know, and I for one would rather be talking to someone who is skirting along the edge of my airspace rather than for him to be an unidentified blip who might infringe at any time.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Eyeinthesky wrote:. .. .I for one would rather be talking to someone who is skirting along the edge of my airspace rather than for him to be an unidentified blip who might infringe at any time.. .. .Well, not all minders of CAS think about it like that. Try Luton or Stansted.. .. .Glider Slider