Poor Airmanship? Pilots reading non-relevent material in the cockpit during flight.

[126807]

I'm interested in the general opinion of other pilots regarding the subject of pilots reading non-relevant publications (newspapers, magazines, novels...) during flight. As an Airbus A320 captain myself with over 30 years in military and commercial aviation, I personally find such behaviour extremely non-professional and akin to poor airmanship. But in my airline, even though we're flying short-haul routes, I have definitely noticed an increase in the number of co-pilots whom I fly with who consider it perfectly acceptable to do so (until I ask them to either stop doing so, or otherwise hand over their duties as PF or PNF to me and take an official Crew Fatigue Management break, doing with it as they see fit). Even our chief pilot does nothing to discourage this behaviour. Some try to start reading even while we're still in climb mode!

I understand just as much as the next guy how hard we work and how important fatigue management is nowadays. But just to open a newspaper and start reading without handing over duty is grossly negligent in my books. Does anyone else out there agree with me? Is this indeed poor airmanship or am I just a relic of bygone age?

[Fish1]

If you've got next to nothing to do in cruise, what's wrong with reading a book or magazine?

I find it curious that you only object to people reading "non-relevant publications". Does that mean you object not to the fact that people are reading, but to WHAT they are reading? Like, an ops manual would be acceptable to read, but a magazine would not?

[Cpt_Schmerzfrei]

I am absolutely on your side, 126807. A couple of times I had to ask F/Os to stop reading. Two times it was taken as an insult (which was in no way intended). It is difficult to make your point if your chief pilot is doing it as well, as he was in the case of my former company.

Personally, flying short-haul, I don't like it for a couple of reasons.
First of all, you are taking yourself out of the loop. No matter what you read, you are devoting part of your cognitive resources to reading. If the guys who missed Indianapolis last year had been reading instead of looking at their laptops, it would have been obvious to everybody now that it might be a good idea to keep an eye on the flight's progress.
Secondly, I think it's impolite. Why not talk to the guy sitting next to you? (In this context, I find it remarkable that you never get asked whether it is okay to read - the other guy just pulls out his book/magazine and starts reading).
Thirdly, I think it makes a bad impression on the cabin crew (if fitted). They are working their butts off, and when they come to the cockpit they see a couple of guys who only seem to take a remote interest in the safe progress of the flight?

I have never heard a good and valid reason for reading. People who fly long-haul told me that it helps them overcome fatigue. As I have no experience flying long-haul myself, I can't really tell whether that's a valid point.

Fish1 is right insofar as it is hard to draw a line when it comes to the definition of "relevant material". Is it really necessary to have a look at the operating manual in flight? The latest company memo? In any case, reading "War&peace" may be a great cultural endeavour, but it is not what you are paid to do and what your passengers expect from you. Why not err on the safe side?

[Agaricus bisporus]

Srely there is a big difference between a newspaper/ops manual ans a novel.A novel is designed to "take you away", intended to distract and take a lot more concentration than scanning a newspaper or looking thru the manuals.

I too have noticed how FOs will just pull out a book without even the courtesy of asking, and also found offence sometimes taken when asked to stop. Yes, Airmanship. But it's not included in modern training, is it, having been displaced by SOPs.

[Fish1]

First, I should note that I do read myself, but only if I feel there's time and opportunity for it, and that a lot of flights I do are quite long. On a short flight across the North Sea to London, having only a few minutes in cruise and little time to even prepare for the arrival, obviously I'm not going to be spending any time reading. A flight all the way down to some place in the Canary Islands is a different story however. And I agree with the idea that reading something does a better job at keeping you awake than just staring at the instruments.

To say it's rude, well, you do run out of things to talk about with people at times. And even though I generally get along with people just fine, it's not said I've always got much in common with the other guy, often not enough to have eight hours worth of conversation when flying to Tenerife and back anyway. I certainly don't mind it if the other guy gets a book or magazine out.

A while ago I was flying with a management pilot who shared this view that pilots shouldn't really be reading during the flight. However, he has no problem himself looking through the manuals, or even get out his laptop to catch up with some digital paperwork. I find it quite odd that he refuses me to read my book while he's busy working on his laptop. You're not telling me that laptop isn't a distraction.

[PGA]

In my previous company there was an SOP stating that we weren't allowed to read any non flight-related items, sicne it was shorthaul and the aircraft wasn't equipped with autothrust it made sense.

I currently fly the 320, shorthaul, and I bring newspapers and books to work. I get very very bored on 3 hour + sectors, and even though it does distract you, personally feel it keeps me aroused.

Remember the curve? A lot of arousal decreases your performance, but so does under-arousol. It is well known that people can't stare at a videoscreen and keep paying attention for a prolonged period of time, which is in essence what we do.

Since everybody reacts differently to books / newspapers, and not every book is the same, I think you can't differentiate between what people read. As long as the job gets done, I think it's only a good thing to try and stay awake somehow. Personally I always scan the flightdeck every other minute to see if there are any changes / if we're approaching an FIR boundry etc etc and I don't think reading something is displaying bad airmanship, if you do it on approach it would be, but there is a time and a place.

All incidents and occurences I read about at work haven't been caused because people were reading, they have been caused due to mode confusion / loss of awareness / lack of understanding, the list is endless. When somebody can point me to an incident or accident where reading was cited as the main factor then please point this out to me.

[sorvad]

try getting through a 14 hour trans pacific flight with 10 hours of it CPDLC with ADS...no position reporting and absolutely nothing to do, and keep even vaguely a quarter of the way up that arousal curve!...impossible!...personally I have found the times I feel most out of the loop are not when reading a newspaper...or even a novel...(that might be a distraction, but it is easy to tear yourself away from it every so often to twiddle a knob!)....no it is when engrossed in the company manuals, maybe studying for a tech quiz trying to disseminate all that info and hell bent on getting it finished before bed time.

Short haul may be a different kettle of fish, but with ultra long haul, any distraction is welcome, and definitely not bad airmanship!

[parabellum]

Even in the middle of the night over the ocean on long haul it is wise to be disciplined about reading on the flight deck.

I remember a case where the captain was reading and the FO left the flight deck, captain thought the buffet was turbulence and it was the stall warning that got his attention! At that precise time the capts. ADC had failed and as the speed tape unwound so did the throttles and air speed! All very subtle too. one in a million chance perhaps but it can happen. (No, I wasn't the captain!).

[johns7022]

Some of us can drive down the road, talk on cell phone, drive with our knees....some drive with white knuckles, looking straight ahead at 20 MPH, where a cat running out would make them flip the car..

I fly single pilot routinely at Fl450, working on a laptop, IPOD under the Bose glancing up to monitor things.....the biggest distraction is passengers wanting to talk...not what I bring to the table for entertainment....I will get up there and do partial panel, double reversion on the EFIS..work on flight plans and paperwork, maint. logs...read books....I can't even imagine the copilot being anything but someone I have to watch, monitor, as he reaches out and wiggles some knob.....

Seriously, if I had a copilot, I would WANT him to take a nap or read a book or go in back and pour drinks, not up front messing with stuff...

[reivilo]

:D:ooh:
in what part of the world are you currentlfy flying, johns?

[TowerDog]

Secondly, I think it's impolite. Why not talk to the guy sitting next to you? (In this context, I find it remarkable that you never get asked whether it is okay to read - the other guy just pulls out his book/magazine and starts reading).


Aye, I am guilty

After the climb and level at FL, I do pull out the odd magazine or newspaper trying to read a bit.
Many a times I fly with a captain that is full of himself and his ego and naturally he wants to talk about himself..:sad:

It gets pretty darn boring after a few minuttes of listening to his concerns about his marriage, his next training session, his commute, his dog's bowel movements, etc.

I do not read during climb regardless who is flying.

In the past with various airlines I was the captain wanting to chat and probably bored my F/Os with my B/S and got offended if they pulled out a magazine or maybe not..Can't remember that far back.:sad:

In the right seat, my services or opinions is not needed or wanted beyond R/T and the occasional radar scan for C/Bs and alerts to TCAS messages.
Cruise only however: Climb or descent I put the paper away and try to show some interest and to listen to the Captain's personal concerns...:yuk:

[John Citizen]

A couple of times I had to ask F/Os to stop reading

I bet all the FO's hate flying with you. Are you proud of being hated for being such a nazi over little things that don't matter ? :eek:

If it does not bother the chief pilot and it is not forbidden anywhere, then who are you to enforce your own unique rules and procedures upon people ? :ugh:

I suppose you also believe that someone must also hand over to you whilst eating even though it might not be written anywhere ?

Why not talk to the guy sitting next to you?

So it's ok to talk with the person next to you but not ok to read ? :confused:

I have to admit there have numerous occasions where the flight crew (including me) have become so deeply involved in a very heavy conversation that they have lost complete situational awareness !! :eek:

You do not need to be reading to be distracted from doing your job, and having a talk with someone can be just as distracting. But you say talking is ok but reading is not ? :confused:

I agree with PGA, it's a good way to keep the (mental) arousal levels up, especially on long sectors, and stay awake (back of the clock).

Why not talk to the guy sitting next to you?

We take our headsets off in the cruise, and once again, no doubt many crew (including myself) have missed out on hearing a radio call becasue we were too busy talking and just did not hear it. :eek:

If the flight deck was quiet, because 1 of us was reading, then we would be able to hear the radio and perhaps not miss out on a radio call. :ok:

I see radio calls missed more often than not due people talking and not due someone reading.

Remember that an aircraft does not require 2 pilots to fly it (might require it legally but otherwise can safely be flown by 1 pilot, especially in the cruise) :eek:

You are saying that if 1 pilot is reading, he is not purely focused on the job. True, but the other pilot is still there. How much attention and focus does the job require when flying in cruise, especially during the day in clear blue sky ? Does an airliner always require the full concentration and mental ability of all flight crew ? What about all the single pilot aircraft which only have 1 pilot at the controls ? They fly around safely on their own with only 1 pilot (that is only 1 set of ears and 1 set of eyes) :eek:. :confused: Its ok for them but you say its not ok in a multi crew airliner if one person is not fully concentrating whilst reading even though there is another pilot onboard ? :confused:

[GlueBall]

I'm long haul. I'm the captain. I read. I keep my headset on. I can read and hear at the same time. I don't miss radio calls. Any other questions? :ooh:

[John Citizen]

Glueball,

You're a legend. :ok:

Unfortunately we are not all this good :{

At least you think its ok to read the paper :ok:

[safetypee]

GB, re your “I can read and hear at the same time. I don't miss radio calls. Any other questions?”

Are you human; or just exempt human factors – split attention, distraction, etc?

J C “At least you think its ok to read the paper.”
But are you sure that he can read? ;)

[IGh]

Posed in initial message:"I'm interested in the general opinion of other pilots regarding the subject of pilots reading ... during flight...."
You asked about "opinion of other pilots" -- reading their responses (above) you can see that most of today's pilots feel just fine about both pilots reading during flight, with newspapers obscuring the windscreen.

Previous inflight UPSETs had several subtle factors inhibiting the human pilot's UPSET- RECOGNITION. READING during crz : Night? Lights-up bright?
“Behavior Factors” -- “... Safety Board could not determine conclusively that the captain was reading at the onset of the accident sequence. Coworkers established that it was his habit to read in flight with the cockpit thunderstorm lights set on bright. On the CVR transcript, the captain made a comment about lighting that may have referred to adjusting cockpit lights for reading ... If the captain was reading, regardless of the nature of the material, he would have been distracted ... Safety Board recognizes that operational material is read by flightcrew ... However, reading of nonoperational material is not a good practice because it detracts from the pilot’s primary duty, and therefore should not be tolerated in an airplane cockpit.... possible that the captain was inattentive ... and that his inattention was a factor ...”
[From aar pg 29, Zantop 931/ 30May84. CVR indicated gyro problem during CLB, \\ Zantop CVR preserved the pilot's comments about the suspected Attitude displays: "Gyro's ah screwed-up ---- * ... Wings level now.... Chuck could you switch it over to Number One ..." \\ crew selected #1 VG to drive both ADIs; entered right descending spiral as IAS increased; inflight break-up, debris spread over large area. P.C.-- entry into unusual attitude and inability of the flight crew to analyze the flight condition before there was a complete loss of control . . . an undetermined failure of a component in the #2 Vertical Gyro system . . . amplifier and associated circuitry . . . bad data to Copilot's horizon indicator. Speculation included that Captain had a history of turning cockpit lighting full bright during night flights (so he could read while the F/O flew the aircraft), CVR had sounds of pages turning, lack of outside visual clues inhibited the F/O's recognition of the developing upset.]
Reading may be less distracting than other thinking-writing chores -- How-goes-it Chart, Log Book, Nav-log "chores" have also been reported by pilots as the sourced of their-own pilot-distraction. Eg, Speed decay during CRZ (spd/pitch upset) STICK-SHAKER, pilots distracted while entering Log Book entry, delayed recognition of upset (from ASRS).

Here's an example where each of the pilots was doing routing pilot-chores, and thus were simultaneously busy, delaying upset recognition:

-- Evergreen International Airways, (under JAL charter, "JAL41E") a B747-121 (cargo), roll upset, supersonic dive, about 4:20am CST Thursday 12Dec91, 35nm SE Nakina Ont (near Thunderbay, Ontario). With autopilot engaged (Channel A, Alt Hold, INS nav, Auto Throttles Off), FL310, Cruise M.84, at night with no visual horizon; while Capt was busy turned outboard looking down (left & down), F/O completing nav log, the aircraft entered a steep bank; INS FAIL annunciation illuminated, pilots looked-up, "oh-uh", suspected ADI failure, rolled to 96 degree right bank, (press reported a 45 degree nose-down pitch)....

-- Jet Link Flt 2733 (Continental Express) / 29Apr93, Embraer EMB-120RT Brasilia (N27406), upset at 1533 CDT, landed at 1555 CDT, near Pine Bluff Arkansas 3 crew/27pax. Upset in IMC, icing conditions, climbing through 17000 feet aircraft stalled, aircraft out of control (time 1533:16) --entered inverted spin. Control regained at 5500 feet. Left engine nacelle structure damaged, three prop blades missing, engine almost broken from wing ... Board blamed captain for failure to "maintain professional cockpit discipline, inattention to flight instruments ..." At the time of the upset, Captain with engaged in conversation with the F/A (noting snow on windscreen), and the F/O was busy with logbook duties and eating crew meal. Just prior to upset captain noted "ball" (in Turn-and-Slip indicator) slewed full left and Rudder Trim at full right (10 units)....
Question: While the other pilot is out-of-cockpit (in the Lav), isn't OK for the remaining pilot to get out-of-seat?-- to retrieve his paperback-book from his suitcase, stowed in the back corner of the flightdeck??? He'll just be out-of-seat for a minute or two. [It happened.] He needs his book to read, while the other pilot is out-of-cockpit.

[TheGorrilla]

As an Airbus A320 captain myself with over 30 years in military and commercial aviation, I personally find such behaviour extremely non-professional and akin to poor airmanship.

What a pompous statement!! I hate to think what 126807 is like to fly with.

Personally I think reading is good for mental health. So is having a chat with your colleague. It makes for a more pleasant working environment. Freedom to relax a bit and have a chat if you want to or read a book/paper is good. It means when something concerns you, you are more likely to become vocal about it if you're relaxed and the skipper is approachable. Jokes and anecdotes are good for crm too.

Who likes doing a crossword or a sudoku in the cruise?

[NEWYEAR]

Hi everybody:)

I meet pilots who have been able to get a Diploma (University) thanks to take advantage of long haul flights, as they were able to study.

In a short sector you have to be planning ahead for normal events and be prepared for unexpected contingencies. To read newspapers or something like that overflying Germany, France, Swiss, etc is not a good idea because these areas are saturated and you have to pay attention.

So, it depends on the flight time and the pilots.

[zomerkoning]

First of all, I am also guilty of reading in the cockpit... I fly short-haul within Europe and usually try to have a good conversation with the person sitting next to me....

But if you're flying with each other, 4 sectors a day for 5 days, stuff to talk about starts running out, quite often because there is a generation gap between the FO and the capt.

I think reading during the cruise is no problem what so ever. During climb, during descent and whenever the other person is out of the cockpit I put down my newspaper and have all my attention on the aircraft.

As some people have said in this thread, try keeping a constant eye on the screens and dials at 0300z during your 5th early of that week... It's counter-productive, you start missing even more things in my opinion.

If a capt would ask me to put down my newspaper, I would not have a problem with that, but I would ask him/her as to their reasoning behind it (good CRM!). At least food for a good discussion and before you know it, it's time to get the approach plates out :)

[beamer]

126807

You are indeed a relic of a bygone age. In these automated days it is far better for a pilot to keep his arousal level ( no smut please :E) at an acceptable level by reading a newspaper or indeed a book whilst in the cruise.
Far better that, than gazing out of the window and dozing off in the middle of the night halfway across the Atlantic - for those with no experience of longhaul, trust me, it can be extremely boring !

My company uses laptops for all its manuals and notices, so we are often wading through relevant information during the cruise when not much else is going on during the flight. Once all the paperwork is complete - electronic or otherwise, I will happily read a newspaper or battle through the fiendish sudoku puzzle in the Times or Telegraph. What is the difference between 'relevant' or 'non-relevant' material - it makes no difference at all.

Mind you, I did get a little irate when one of the new troops started to watch Top Gear on his laptop at 30W - he did'nt watch it for long !!!

[John Citizen]

To answer your question, I think you a relic of a bygone age.

Relax, chill out and try to make the job more enjoyable for everyone :ok:

[parabellum]

We take our headsets off in the cruise,


Why? Much safer to keep one ear on and the inboard ear uncovered.

The idea that both pilots flying on speakers alone in the cruise is OK is questionable.

I don't see any harm in reading the paper when the work load is low.

[John Citizen]

I take my headset off in the cruise only because everyone else here does it.

I occasionally leave it on, especially when dealing with foreign ATC.

I usually let the captain take the lead (headsets on/off) and just go along with him/her.

[GlueBall]

I don't allow the "thunderstorm/daylight" lights to be on at night; if and when I read at night, it's with my map light only. I don't allow cockpit speakers to be used in flight, and everyone keeps on their lightweight headsets.

[GlueBall]

126807 and IGh . . . tell us the correct, professional protocol about what to do for 11 hours in cruise, besides sitting up straight, looking out the window, scanning the dashboard, and talking on the radio . . . :confused:

[Agaricus bisporus]

If a capt would ask me to put down my newspaper, I would not have a problem with that, but I would ask him/her as to their reasoning behind it (good CRM!).

Questioning instructions "Good CRM?" Hmmm. I wonder.
Depends on how it was put, surely? "Stop reading please" is probably not good CRM, neither is questioning it after, " I think we ought to be paying a bit more attention, would you mind?". However after the second missed Rt call the first option may be perfectly good CRM on its own.

Clearly there's a huge difference between mid Pacific and central Europe, just ass there's a difference between skimming a newspaper, getting engrossed in a novel and bunging your mind up solid with a sudoku to the exclusion of all else.

All a matter for judgement, surely?

[IGh]

GB asks about the difference between a pilot's duties, and a passenger's recreation:
"... the correct, professional protocol about what to do ... in cruise ..."
Maybe there might be one Pilot Flying, and one Pilot Monitoring (if that is defined in your company's regulations). Once you've got that problem solved, then go back to the cabin or to the crew bunk (don't distract the pilots).

[126807]

Sorry I couldn't reply beforehand but I was away working. I thank everyone for their inputs and opinions. I would just like to reiterate some of the provisos from my first post and defend myself against some of the more "colorful" replies.

My post concerned, firstly, reading during short-haul flying on the A320 and, secondly, reading without declaring it. I have had three occasions in my career in short-haul commercial aviation in Europe when the simple act of looking out detected non-controlled military aircraft and meteo ballons passing in dangerously close proximity (yes, reports were filed). Thirdly, the only co-pilots I've ever asked to actually stop reading were those who started reading whilst the plane was still changing its vertical mode, either climbing or descending. Otherwise I simply ask my colleague to take the company-approved "fatigue management break", an up-to-40 minute break with which they can read or close their eyes, I don't care, but which has the added bonus of legally covering us should an incident occur (won't help much if an actual mid-air collision occurs but you get the point...).

Chief-pilots don't hold exclusive rights on best airmanship practice. It is the responsibility of each and every captain to determine how best to conduct his flight, how safe is safe enough. What someone might call a "relaxed" flight-deck, others might call slack. I personally know which type of pilot I would rather have my family flying with. By the way, I'm also a firm believer in the "sterile cockpit" and I also feel obliged to give any cockpit jump-seat riders a proper safety briefings before push-back too. I even take repetitive checklist work earnestly. In other works, I take airmanship seriously. That doesn't make me a nazi (actually I'm an Aussie). Perhaps surprisingly for some in these forum, the vast majority of feedback that I have received from my F/Os on the line has been overwhelmingly positive, that they appreciate such conscientiousness. Maybe even a good impression might have been made on some, like some of my many captains made on me during my years in the right-hand seat.

In any case, after reading some of the comments posted here, I have to admit that I actually prefer being a relic of a bygone age, when pilots really were pilots and not apparently just bored (Air)bus drivers.

What prompted me to write this thread was simply the growing tendency I have noticed of new F/Os reading in the cockpit. I have now come to realise that just because everyone else might be doing it doesn't make it any more correct... I for one do not intend to lower my standards to their level.

[parabellum]

I don't allow the "thunderstorm/daylight" lights to be on at night


Glue Ball - The USAir Force produced a thick tome all about pre flight rest, eating habits pre and during flights and cockpit lighting. The entire study was intended to reduce fatigue caused through night flying as it affected their B52 crews, on constant patrols, a lot.

On the cockpit lighting side they said that, during the cruise phase of flight, it was recommended to lighten up the cockpit as much as possible as this could reduce fatigue by up to 75%, if the surroundings are darkened down then the body naturally wants to sleep.
At night the human eye will focus about nine inches the other side of the windshield unless it latches onto something, so maintaining a dark cockpit won't always improve lookout, especially if one is reading a newspaper at the same time! Just for what it is worth.

[John Citizen]

I for one do not intend to lower my standards to their level

Why do you have to be so different if every one else does it and finds it acceptable, including the chief pilot ? :confused:

You just want to proove a point how much better you "think" you are than everyone else ?

Ok, so in your own opinion, you don't want to lower your standards you say. However it sounds like you are very unenjoyable to fly with due to your petty demands. Are your proud of yourself ?

Maybe you are proud of yourself, for enforcing your own "unique" standards and you see everyone else as a slack.

You don't seem to care about making the day enjoyable for the other person but seems like you like to use this as an opportunity to "beat your chest" (I am the captain, I am better than everyone else because of my unique demands).

Reminds me of a few other captains I flew with and no one enjoyed flying with them. They were also mostly old, as you say, relics of an older generation.

However, I do agree with you, that one should definitely not be reading a paper whilst in climb/descent.

[bArt2]

I remember one flight up and down to Tenerife, 4,5 hours up 4,5 hours back. The captain was telling stories about himself during the whole cruise (two times 4 hours in a row). As he had some accent it took some concentration to understand him.
At the end of the flight I got so exhausted because of the long concentration that I considered to give him the controls for the approach and landing. I didn't but I should have because at the end my performance was crap.

[Piltdown Man]

Just how complicated is it to fly an A320 shorthaul? I am sure that there are times when both people have to work hard, but I would suggest that once the hard work bit has passed, one of you could wind down a bit. And while on the subject of airmanship, there is also another very important aspect to be considered: Does your attitude piss people off so much that you create a split cockpit on an aircraft that requires two crew? Should you ever be involved in an incident you will be given feedback whether you want it or not. You'll also find out on your leaving do when your friends come and say farewell. I don't know if you need to start checking your brakepipes before you drive home, but I would lighten up a bit.

PM

[John Citizen]

Well said Piltdown Man. Exactly how hard is to fly an Airbus in the cruise ? :confused: It probably requires less than 10% of a normal pilots brain capacity. Do you really need to apply 100% attention and concentration to the task ? Is multi-tasking beyond your ability ? Maybe your age has something to do with it. :eek:

If you need to apply 100% concentration to handle the workload in the cruise, then how do you handle the abnormals and emergencies in the simulator ?

[IGh]

Pilot (PF? and PM?) READING during flight: Merely an Ethical choice?
Is there a specific company "standard"?
Any Regulatory "standard"?
An element cited in the Code of Ethics?
Responses, so far, there are about 30+ comments in this thread (with one guy offering a half-dozen statements against any standards of pilot- "professionalism"). -- Several comments suggested that neither their company, nor regulatory agency, offered any specific "standard" banning any form of READING (non-essential).

-- OR, perhaps the pilot simply did not "buy-in" to that specific "standard" -- feeling that the captain can arbitrarily ignore that standard.

-- Some comments suggest that it is OK when FO asks if the CAPTAIN would consent to his (FO) violating the specific "standard" (?shifting the blame to the captain?).
Should this question even be tolerated in an airliner cockpit?

-- One comment states that his company has a "standard" permitting ONE PILOT to read during a specified "fatigue management break", of limited duration.

-- Several commenters perceive NO RISK of delayed-recognition [seemingly ignoring seven-decades of regular airliner inflight upsets].

-- Is this cockpit housekeeping item (choice) left to the Captain? Can you get any help from the "Professional Standards" guys??? ASAP-feedback to the slacker from Pro' Stan'????
Literature was recently expanded with a USA- NTSB's
Professionalism in Aviation Forum: NTSB - Symposia (http://www.ntsb.gov/events/symp-professionalism-aviation/symp-professionalism-aviation.htm)

FSF reprinted excerpts from that "Professionalism" forum:
Out of Bounds (Expanded Version) | Flight Safety Foundation (http://flightsafety.org/asw/jun10/professionalism.html)

From that Forum, there a sense that "professionalism" qualities should be a focus BEFORE employment -- some individuals should be "selected-out" before they get near an airliner.

Once hired by an airline, whether a Captain or an FO, the forum cited the human's choice on specific "standards":
Out of Bounds (Expanded Version) | Flight Safety Foundation (http://flightsafety.org/asw/jun10/professionalism.html)Getting Buy-In
"One of the NTSB’s questions about the “Generation Y” flight crew demographic concerned reports that these pilots may expect others to obtain their personal agreement or “buy-in” to comply with regulations and SOPs; in particular, that some captains may not actively enforce rules they consider arbitrary. “Buy-in is … one of the essential parts of what we are trying to accomplish ..."

[John Citizen]

I for one do not intend to lower my standards to their level

You lower yourself to someone who is a complete pain in the ass to fly with. You proud of yourself ?

Maybe you just don't have the mental capacity to multi-task like most other pilots easily can :p

It looks like even flying straight and level in the cruise at flight levels on autopliot is all too hard for you, and you have not got any spare brain capacity to do something else simple like read a paper

[choppingmotion]

I would have thought that someone who was engrossed in reading material was almost by definition no longer situationally aware, and would be at greatly increased risk of missing visual and even aural warnings. How many times, reading my paper or magazine, have I missed my stop on the London Underground despite knowing the route blindfolded and receiving a succession of aural cues as station stops are announced?

So, before deliberately disengaging oneself from instrument scanning and general flight deck monitoring activities, I would have thought it prudent to seek and obtain the consent of one's flight deck colleague. Failing to do so is surely inconsistent with the principles of vigilence and diligence that are of the essence of good airmanship, and in my view amounts to a wilful neglect of one's duty to pay due care and attention to the condition of the aeroplane.

On short haul sectors in congested environments like western Europe, I think it is reasonable to expect that both pilots would have their eyes peeled and be actively monitoring RT, flight instruments and externally for the duration of the flight.

I am researching air accident causation at the moment (for a degree, not a news article or book, don't worry!) and it is shocking how many fatal accidents begin as recoverable flight upsets or gradual departures from controlled flight (gentle bank or pitch excursions that went undetected) but the recovery was botched through a combination of late detection and inappropriate flight crew response because of lack of situational awareness.

[sunset_contrails_10]

I read my newspaper while shooting an approach to minimums in a twenty five knot crosswind in snow and icing conditions. I would never have lasted for eight thousand hours of single pilot operations otherwise. I guess some guys are not capable of dividing their attention while at the controls. Wonder how you can run an emergency checklist without reading?

[Piltdown Man]

Choppingmotion: I think you are wrong. The human brain is capable of processing a whole variety of inputs at the same time while still remaining situationally aware. Furthermore, with one or two exceptions, when things go wrong it is important to QUICKLY DO NOTHING. Too many fools start pressing buttons, moving knobs & levers, read checklists before they have even considered what the real problem is. Also, I'm sure many of us here would appreciate the name of your assessor so that we can put them right once you have finished your paper.

PM

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

If we are to banish distractions from the flight deck there are much better places to start than this.
The vast bulk of my pre flight prep is now spent wrestling with various deficient and user unfriendly systems and procedures. These are mostly management "Gold star on my cv" schemes or "CYA" catch-alls from the latest training meeting.
It's a real strugle to find time to actually think about flying the aircraft . I believe this is the single largest distraction in today's operation and is behind the bulk of Config warnings/performance errors/ track violations/ level busts etc.
We are all to some degree aware of and willing to exercise the Commanders authority to delay things if we percieve a rush, but the SOP's must be in place to facilitate the process within the allocated timeframe. This is simply not the case in many companies. Management know this but refuse to confront it. It's easier to play the "He allowed himself to be rushed" get out card when faced with the results.

[Chesty Morgan]

There are clearly two different opinions on this subject.

1. It's ok to read a novel/newspaper/magazine.
2. It's not.

I'm not an advocate of getting engrossed in a novel whilst I'm flying and neither do I expect my F/O's to do it. But I fly European short haul and our longest sector is about two and a half hours.

If you are doing your job properly on these shorter sectors then you shouldn't really have the time to get bored in the cruise, which is about an hour and a half at the longest.

There are plenty of chores you should be doing to keep yourself busy. Keeping yourself in the loop is an essential part of the safety system.

How are you going to cope if you've had your head buried in a book for the last half an hour and then your engine falls off? Where are you? Where are you going to go? What's the weather like there? Don't know because you haven't got the weather yet!

A delayed reaction time at best.

And how do you keep yourself ahead of the aircraft if you aint paying attention?

You're there to do a job and my opinion is that you can't be doing it properly if you have time to read a book.

How can I cross check the instruments when you've got the Telegraph spread out over half the flight deck? I can't so you're not reading it.

We have one (not) fine chap who pulls out his latest novel as soon as we get in to the cruise. No courtesy of asking either. I give him a minute or two then I ask him to get the weather for all the enroute divs I fancy. That keeps him busy for a while, then I brief him for a while, then he gets the ATIS etc. then we're at TOD. If he's PF his choice is PF'ing or reading.

Long haul is a different matter.

Finally, does anybody remember the first rule of airmanship?

[IGh]

Statement shown in previous comment:"... The human brain is capable of processing a whole variety of inputs at the same time while still remaining situationally aware. ... it is important to QUICKLY DO NOTHING. Too many fools start pressing buttons, moving knobs & levers ..."
Could any airline pilot seriously accept such a fool statement?
[Please excuse such a blunt question, but that sort of statement should be identified as contrary to lessons of our industry.]

Have this man stand down, then he should recite the lessons from the Waldo Lynch upset (B707/ 3Feb59 N712PA, over North Atlantic), concerning the distracted- PF's inability to recognize that subtle INITIAL upset.

From a recent, typical, DAC-Pitch/Speed upset, reprinted in the report:"... It is important that the flight crews recognize an unreliable airspeed condition in a timely fashion, and imperative that their initial action is to maintain aircraft control. Air data and pitot system malfunctions can result in different EIS [electronic instrument system] alerting system displays or erroneous indications depending on the nature of the cause of the malfunction. Not all malfunctions will be readily obvious or result in specific alerts."

Eventually French BEA investigators will recover a DFDR from an A330 (currently beneath the sea) -- and then you AirBus guys will get more lessons -- similar to those lessons Boeing has recorded repeatedly since the 1930's:
Yaw x Roll =DIVE initial-upsets can be very subtle.
Often these "occurrences" are initially an un-notice 1-G event, ask Sam Peters after that 3Feb59 upset -- that he did NOT recognize until nose had sliced to steep NOSE DOWN.

Such subtle UPSET events have been repeated several times each decade.

Mostly, an observant pilot DOES recognize the subtle onset Pitch-Spd, or Yaw x Roll, INITIAL upset: such an observant PF then simply clicks-OFF the Autoflight, and quickly recovers aircraft control [merely a log-book entry later].

On the other hand, each decade, a few pilots fail to recognize the onset of INITIAL upset, and an otherwise easy event progresses into a next interval of sustained uncontrolled flight, and is later cited in TV-news, and requires lengthy "investigation".

[Piltdown Man]

IGh: It is plain to airline pilots that you are not one of us. When you are and when you are able stop posting with your wretched fonts size and colour changes and when you have a valid point you might be taken more seriously. The initial thread was about reading on a flight deck. So pay us all a little more respect and continue along that thread. The modern airliner, in this case the A320, is more than capable of giving enough notice that things are going wrong in the cruise well before any heroic action needs to be taken. So please stop wasting our time with reports from 1959 and get back to your Tellytubbies.

PM

[johns7022]

The next time someone in here want to pontificate on professionalism...let's all take a good hard look at his weight and balance, flight planning, and preflight inspection....his log book, whether he's cheating on his wife, or taxes....maybe take a gander at his resume for inaccuracies...see if he supports putting 200 hr pilots in the right seat..

and if he's squeaky clean, and just sits there and stares at the instruments and scanning 10 degree increments for 8 hours....then he can feel free to come in here and tell me not to read a book up in the cockpit.....

[Chesty Morgan]

Actually John nobody can come on this here thread and tell you not to read a book at work. Regardless of their fidelity, which hasn't got anything to do with it anyway.

However, if your captain doesn't want you to read a book then I suggest that you don't. Not that you should be anyway. Simple as that.

Again, does anybody remember the first rule of airmanship?

[A37575]

And how do you keep yourself ahead of the aircraft if you aint paying attention?

One technique I used was to monitor the progress of the flight by tuning to various on-track and cross-track NDB or VOR's using the RMI needles. This was excellent situational awareness and alleviated the inevitable boredom of glass cockpit operation. It also kept my instrument scan current in case for some reason one had to revert to raw data basic navigation.

[A37575]

when you are able stop posting with your wretched fonts size

He is trying to impress by being the font of all knowledge...:ok:

[John Citizen]

One technique I used was to monitor the progress of the flight by tuning to various on-track and cross-track NDB or VOR's using the RMI needles

The Airbus does all this for you, leaving you time to read the paper :ok:

[beamer]

It seems obvious that some posters need to get out a little more:E

[bArt2]

Again, does anybody remember the first rule of airmanship?

Wasn't it "thou shalt not read books" :E


Or was it "Дисциплина"

[Chesty Morgan]

The Airbus does all this for you, leaving you time to read the paper

And where does your situational awareness come from? The crossword?

bArt2, nope but thanks for trying.

[pilot999]

personally I find a good dose of hardcore porn magazines rather good in flight after this i can assure that my arousal curve is well sorted. especially when flying with female fo's either that or buy the star for 10p, all else fails by the sun for 20p.

[beamer]

Let me get this straight.

Obviously T/O, Ldg, Climb and Descent are no-go areas for anything other than complete attention - right, now lets put that those to one side.

Am I now expected to maintain my 'situational airwareness' by endlessly tuning and identifying navaids, reading 'relevant' material such as aircrew notices, checklists and manuals, getting weather for airfields which I can see from a fifty miles away, endlessly staring into space in the middle of the night which personally sends me straight off to sleep.

There are 'chores' which have to be done - techlog, paperwork for the next sector, ops returns which my company insists on being done both electronically by laptop and by paper as a back up etc. However, to insist that after completion of such tasks, pilots must not read newspapers or books not to mention completing the traditional crossword or new-fangled sudoku, is quite ridiculous. Do the young co-pilots have to sit there listening to old farts rambling on about their vast pensions and three ex-wives for hour after hour ?

I suspect that some of the 'anti-brigade- have never flown longhaul - try your philosophy on a 9-11 sector - you won't be very popular. I suspect that due to your enhanced situational awareness, when a problem actually arises, your hands fly around the panels so quickly that your colleague cannot keep up with your actions - oops, shut down the wrong engine - and yes it has happened !

There is a time and a place, we can all accept that, but some element of common sense and latitude must make for a more pleasant flightdeck.

[Chesty Morgan]

Am I now expected to maintain my 'situational airwareness'

Yes, but reading the Telegraph wont help will it.

endlessly tuning and identifying navaids

Dontcha know they are all automatic these days, giving you more time to monitor.

reading 'relevant' material such as aircrew notices, checklists and manuals

Only if you want, unless you are required to.

getting weather for airfields which I can see from a fifty miles away

Might be nice to know what the weather is like more than 7 minutes before you get there! You know, planning ahead. What about the airfields you can't see?

endlessly staring into space in the middle of the night which personally sends me straight off to sleep

Endlessly? An hour and a half cruise isn't endless. Like I said, longhaul is a different matter.

However, to insist that after completion of such tasks

Are your flying related tasks ever complete whilst you are still airborne?

I suspect that due to your enhanced situational awareness, when a problem actually arises, your hands fly around the panels so quickly that your colleague cannot keep up with your actions

So I am unable to operate properly as part of a two man crew because I have more situational awareness than the bloke reading the paper? What a stupid statement.

Do the young co-pilots have to sit there listening to old farts rambling on about their vast pensions and three ex-wives for hour after hour?

I'm not old. I don't have a pension or three ex-wives. So no you don't:p

Still, nobody appears to know what the first rule or airmanship is. Come on it aint that hard. It was probably the first thing you learnt on your first day of flying.

[John Citizen]

We have one (not) fine chap who pulls out his latest novel as soon as we get in to the cruise. No courtesy of asking either. I give him a minute or two then I ask him to get the weather for all the enroute divs I fancy. That keeps him busy for a while, then I brief him for a while, then he gets the ATIS etc. then we're at TOD. If he's PF his choice is PF'ing or reading.



Glad I don't fly with you.

So if he wasn't reading, you wouldn't ask anything of him ? :confused:

Weather for enroute diversions is not important if he is not reading but is important if he is ? Talk about double standards.

Can't you get it yourself or is it just too hard for you and beyond your ability ?

Yet as soon as he likes to read you like to interfere with him, you disturb him and distract him.

You are the one that's not being courteous I think.

[Chesty Morgan]

So if he wasn't reading, you wouldn't ask anything of him ?

I wouldn't have to because instead of reading he'd be doing what he should anyway.

No I can't get it myself because if I am PF then it is up to PNF to get the weather and other stuff. Just like any other airline. You see we have our own individual jobs to do don't we? And I expect you to do it. If you don't then I'll tell you to. That's my remit as a captain.

Yet as soon as he likes to read you like to interfere with him, you disturb him and distract him.

Ah bless, I'm disturbing his quiet time by asking him to do his job. Shame on me. Why is there? He can read at home can't he?

Glad I don't fly with you.

Oh dear! I'll cope.

[John Citizen]

I wouldn't have to because instead of reading he'd be doing what he should anyway.


What should he be doing ? Can you expect him to read your mind and know everything you want without you asking for it ?

No I can't get it myself because if I am PF then it is up to PNF to get the weather and other stuff. Just like any other airline. You see we have our own individual jobs to do don't we?

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Well that's not how in works in the airline where I work.

Below is an extract from the Airbus QRH regarding Normal procedures in the cruise :


PF :

ECAM MEMO/SYS PAGES.....REVIEW
FLIGHT PROGRESS.....CHECK
FUEL....MONITOR
NAV ACCURACY....CHECK
RADAR TILT...ADJUST
CABIN TEMP.....MONITOR
TCAS.....BLW

PNF :

(BLANK - no specified duties at all !!)


Please note, there are NO specified duties for the PNF in the cruise, this is direct from Airbus themselves !!

Yes,as you say we all have individual jobs, and the PNF has no job at all in the cruise (as per Airbus QRH) !!

Nowhere does it say in our QRH of any of our manuals that :
-PF must request PNF to get the weather
-PF or PNF must get latest weather enroute at all actually
-PNF always gets the weather / PF does not ever

In the airline where I work, if someone wants the latest weather whilst enroute, whether you are Capt. of FO, PF or PNF, you just get it yourself.

Its not that hard actually, just press a few buttons in the MCDU. :ok:

Is this really such a big task and distraction for the PF that he (she) can't do it themself ?:confused:

Why do you do need to ask someone else to do it for you ? :confused:

Its a bit like asking someone to scratch your head because your are too lazy to do it yourself.

[411A]

I'm interested in the general opinion of other pilots regarding the subject of pilots reading non-relevant publications (newspapers, magazines, novels...) during flight. As an Airbus A320 captain myself with over 30 years in military and commercial aviation, I personally find such behaviour extremely non-professional and akin to poor airmanship.

Personally, I find nothing wrong with the practise of reading whilst in cruise flight (climb/descent excluded), in fact, I bring along a selection of magazines for the FD crew, just for this purpose.

Could it be that your time in the military has made a difference?:rolleyes:

[John Citizen]

Could it be that your time in the military has made a difference?

I agree, I flew with quite a few other oldies ex military and many seemed to behave exactly the same (fault finding anal control freaks strictly enforcing their own unique procedures and techniques).

Maybe its because they were treated that way by their superiors in the military, and now they have there turn to treat others that way too.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I regularly read newspapers, read FCOM, revise for sims etc during the cruise. In 5 years and a couple of hundred captains I've never come across one who has had a problem with it. If the captain is not reading and we are in the cruise with all tasks complete and conversation dried up I will ask if they mind if I read. Never been a problem. On that basis I would say anyone who thinks we should sit there and monitor for an hour or four is in the minority, a throwback to a less automated age - whatever you choose to describe it. Lots of guys I fly with will also take a nap on a long four sector day if they feel the need. It is an accepted method of fatigue management within the company (ezy). While I agree SA is something that is important during the cruise, I also think it quite possible to maintain awareness and read something other than the PFD.

Again, does anybody remember the first rule of airmanship

The F/O always buys the first round. Everyone knows that.

[choppingmotion]

John,

Isn't the point of the extract you quote from the Airbus QRH (re Cruise responsibilities for PNF) that in effect, both pilots are expected to share equally in the monitoring responsibilities, and that in this regard neither is entirely a passive PNF during cruise?

[choppingmotion]

This thread puts me in mind of the old chestnut that an Airbus is designed to be flown by a man and a dog. The man's job is to feed the dog. The dog's job is to bite the man if he touches anything.

[pilot999]

best you stick to Earlys as their are never any papers on the first few sectors , whilst on lates you have a wonderful selection including second edition, magazines etc.:mad:

[TopTup]

An interesting thread but I see it more based on common courtesy and professionalism that appears to be void here and regarding this topic.

So what if the CP hasn't the backbone to implement (his own) SOP's? Should we stoop to that level.... And we've all flown with poor CP's and great CP's.

Every SOP I've ever read or worked under has a statement along the lines of "any procedures outside of company SOP's require a special briefing....." So, if you want to read, or pull out your laptop then employ some damn basic CRM!!! Ask your fellow pilot if he minds if you read for a bit, or look at something on your laptop. There is your "special briefing" and hence both pilots are in the loop and aware of each other. And, if your fellow pilot does mind (FO or Capt!!!) then show him/her the respect they deserve. They have their reason for doing so. (Imagine an FO with issues you as Capt are not aware of...perhaps personal issues and they know they are not "with it" today, yet an arrogant Capt dismisses the FO's needs).

Personally, give me an FO (any pilot) reading something & checking the flight plan, instruments, etc routinely than doing the head drop & bounce as they fall asleep yet try to force themselves awake. And at the same time, 45 mins - 1 hr before descent all attention should be completely on the task at hand....same with ETOPS Entry Points, and diversion airports, wx updates, etc. And it's just RUDE not to mention unprofessional to force your colleague to do all the work as you indulge in some "me time" by getting completely engrossed in other things.

It's called professionalism, courtesy and just plain common sense and all within the scope of SOP's (as I understand it).

[John Citizen]

I had a really good captain today. :ok:

On the way on the aircraft, he stopped at the newsagent and purchased 1 newspaper, and possibly 2 magazines. I had my own literature to read. The cabin crew also bought up some papers from the back.

The time went by very fast and we both got the job done. :ok:

Another great day at work. :ok:

[PBL]

I think it's a good question. Is reading non-pertinent material during relatively un-busy times a danger? An inappropriate activity? An appropriate activity? A safety benefit?

Danger would be inattention to indications that something was going wrong with the flight. The Zantop 931 case is not decisive: other personnel may have behaved differently also when reading. And most inattention incidents do not involve reading: think of China Air Lines 1985 over the Pacific, who suffered a LOC when they lost some power on an engine; they weren't reading, although human-factors issues were all over that (I understand that that inquiry was a watershed for investigating fatigue and biorhythm issues). Or Colgan. And it is not clear to me that non-pertinent conversation, as suggested by one respondent, is any degree less inattentive than reading, although I am happy to be persuaded otherwise.

Is it inappropriate? NTSB apparently said yes, in the Zantop report. Would they think that now?

Is it appropriate? Some views here hold that it is.

Is it a benefit? Some here suggest that it can keep you awake and alert on long-haul or medium-haul. In which case one could imagine it would decrease, not increase, susceptibility to inattention errors. Napping is, after all, an inattention scenario.

Seems like a worthwhile issue to work out.

PBL

[IGh]

PBL asked this question in his thoughtful response, of the 25th, concerning reading:"...Is it inappropriate? NTSB apparently said yes, in the Zantop report. Would they think that now?"
During the NTSB's recent "Professionalism in Aviation" Safety Forum on May 18–20, the Board did express a general concern on such subjects:Out of Bounds (Expanded Version) | Flight Safety Foundation (http://flightsafety.org/asw/jun10/professionalism.html)

"... the NTSB asked ... about opportunities to strengthen defenses against deficiencies such as lapses of discipline, distractions and deviations ... lax, casual or unfocused atmosphere on the flight deck; inexplicable deviations from SOPs; self-centered behavior; substandard airmanship; loss of situational or positional awareness; reluctance of pilots to challenge each other’s deviations ..." ["NTSB delves into theories of why airline pilots ... strayed from professional behavior."]

[The African Dude]

Hey Chesty, I'll take a punt on the answer 'lookout' seeing as nobody else has!

[Chesty Morgan]

What should he be doing ? Can you expect him to read your mind and know everything you want without you asking for it ?

His job. It's written down in our OPS manual, therefore, I have no need to tell him what to do unless he's not doing it.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Well that's not how in works in the airline where I work.

I'm amazed that you can actually, vehemently, say that I am wrong. Bearing in mind you don't know which airline I fly for and what our SOPs are. But then you back track a bit and say not in your airline anyway.

Below is an extract from the Airbus QRH

So? Airbus isn't an airline it's an aircraft manufacturer. If my airline choose, as they rightly can, to tell us what the roles of PF and PNF are then that's what we do.

The bottom line is that PNF, in my airline, cannot do his job properly and effectively if he's engrossed in a novel. And, in fact, neither can PF.

PNF duties include, but are not limited to, getting enroute weather. Which enroute weather he gets is up to the captain.

NO specified duties for the PNF in the cruise

So you're airline doesn't really need you there then?

ECAM MEMO/SYS PAGES.....REVIEW
FLIGHT PROGRESS.....CHECK
FUEL....MONITOR
NAV ACCURACY....CHECK
RADAR TILT...ADJUST
CABIN TEMP.....MONITOR
TCAS.....BLW

Is that your exhaustive list for things that need to be done in flight?


I had a really good captain today.

On the way on the aircraft, he stopped at the newsagent and purchased 1 newspaper, and possibly 2 magazines. I had my own literature to read. The cabin crew also bought up some papers from the back.

I find it interesting that you judge a captain to be really good because he bought a newspaper and let you read it.

Tell me John, if your captain had quietly and unceremoniously died today when would you have noticed? When he dropped his book?

The African Dude

Bingo, keep a good lookout. Something that many pilots seem to have forgotten.

Is it ok to keep your eyes in because we've got TCAS? Is it ok not to navigate because we've got autotuning and autopilot. Is it ok not to monitor because nothing ever goes wrong?

Reliance on technology is eroding basic airmanship and ability.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Reliance on technology is eroding basic airmanship and ability

Agreed, but I would suggest in the context of this thread the level of automation and its levels of reliability on modern jet transport a/c means the reading of newspapers, magazines etc is really not a safety issue on a two-pilot a/c, in the cruise phase of flight. There is a marked difference between becoming "engrossed" in a book and losing all sense of what is going on around you, and reading a newspaper whike maintaining an awareness of what is going on. The initial paperwork at top of climb for PNF on one of our longer sectors (SSH, HRG etc) will take at least 4-5 minutes. Head down. Occasional glance around to stay in the loop. I find light reading of something other than the flight plan would involves something similar.

Is it ok to keep your eyes in because we've got TCAS? Is it ok not to navigate because we've got autotuning and autopilot. Is it ok not to monitor because nothing ever goes wrong?


Again, on a sector upwards of 3 hours? You can do all of these things while affording a bit of time to do a crossword or read something. I admire your work ethic, I just don't deem such a high level of arousal necessary for hours on end in a highly automated cruise phase of flight. I would be shattered before we were even half-way through the day.

[Chesty Morgan]

BMRR, I have said that my point of view concerns the 'hour and a half at the most' cruise type of operation. I agree with you about long/medium haul stuff where the reality of low arousal is more apparent.

That said I've seen with my own eyes and on more than one occasion somebody miss several radio calls in a row. Why? They were either concentrating on a crossword or reading a book. Or, to use your words if I may, they lost all sense of what's going on around them. I know we all miss radio calls occasionally but to miss half a dozen in the matter of 10 minutes is going beyond reasonable. What else would they miss?

To clarify my point it is easier to emerge yourself in a novel or the paper than in an Ops manual or something like the QRH. Therefore, I don't condone zero reading in flight but read something that you're not going to lose yourself in. And having thought more about this today I think the real problem is the attitude of the "book readers" rather than the fact that they are actually reading.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Ok fair point. To repeatedly miss radio calls is suggesting a serious loss of SA. I agree with you regarding attitude, while I admit I do read non-ops material I do so knowing it is far from the primary task in hand.

On a similar issue I personally don't ever partake in 'controlled rest' but fly with a lot of guys who do, some on sectors of the length you mention, and I am suprised that even in a short haul environment this is deemed par for the course by my airline. Though that reflects the attitude of my outfit to FTLs and how they roster their crew, which is another matter!

[John Citizen]

The bottom line is that PNF, in my airline, cannot do his job properly and effectively if he's engrossed in a novel. And, in fact, neither can PF.


In my airline, I see the job being done very effectively every day whilst both the PF and PNF might by reading.

If no one was reading, it would not make any difference at all here.

But most importantly, I want to enjoy my job and enjoy the people I work with.

This job would be far less enjoyable if I would not be able to kill the occasional boredom by reading if I so desire.

This job would also be far less enjoyable flying with others who disallowed this luxury.

I want to enjoy my time at work and for others to enjoy flying with me.

Unfortunately not everyone thinks this way :(

I want my fellow work colleagues to speak well about me behind my back. I wonder what they all say about you ? You think they all enjoy flying with you and look forward to it ? Probably you don't care.

[A37575]

Reliance on technology is eroding basic airmanship and ability.

That fact has been discussed and known for years. Countless research papers and symposiums have done the subject to death. All this matters nothing to manufacturers and airline operations management who still push the blind use of full automation ad nauseum. Cadet first officers who have known nothing except button pushing are the captains of the future where basic airmanship is laughed at as old fashioned crap.

[Rwy in Sight]

And here goes where a friend of mine (who is a PPRuNer and I hope does not read this) and a FO for European operator explained to me that airmanship is not necessary. What you need according to him is to be a good system operator and know how to bring the aircraft where the manufacturer wants it to be at each phase of the flight - and how to bring it back if it departed the point.

I don't want to derail the thread but I wanted to vent.

Rwy in Sight

[Chesty Morgan]

I want my fellow work colleagues to speak well about me behind my back. I wonder what they all say about you ? You think they all enjoy flying with you and look forward to it ? Probably you don't care.

John, you're right. I don't care what anyone says about me behind my back. Being a captain or first officer isn't a popularity contest. What I do want people to do is to respect my position, rank and authority (as I do theirs) and if I ask them to do something then they should do it. With the usual disclaimers of dangerous or illegal requests. If they enjoy flying with me then that's ok, if they don't that's ok too. As long as they do their job as I do mine.

In my airline, I see the job being done very effectively every day whilst both the PF and PNF might by reading.

Are you serious? Both pilots reading? Who's monitoring who, what and how? Can you really say with any authority that two pilots reading at the same time is as safe as two pilots monitoring at the same time?

But most importantly, I want to enjoy my job and enjoy the people I work with.

Except you can't enjoy your job without partaking in something that is irrelevant, not part of that job and to be honest quite antisocial! How do you think people enjoy your company when you've got your nose buried in the latest Mills and Boon?

The most important thing is to actually do your job whether you enjoy it or not.

A37575,

And that's where self-discipline and professionalism should play a part. We need to use technology and the automatics rather than rely on them completely.

It should fall on us to maintain that discipline, pass it on, encourage others to use it and not let them start down the slippery slope of what essentially amounts to laziness.

Unfortunately too many people these days see that kind of thing as an afront to their right to do whatever the hell they feel like. Tough.

To paraphrase Mrs T, this man is not for turning!

[John Citizen]

I don't care what anyone says about me behind my back. Being a captain or first officer isn't a popularity contest. What I do want people to do is to respect my position, rank and authority

I find it hard to believe that you can respect someone if you do not like them. :confused:

Also be very careful about any food and beverages from out the back :eek:

Every day flight crew make small errors, and multi crew is about helping each other and supporting each other.

There are many FO's out there who I believe would get tremendous satisfaction seeing a Captain they dislike completely make a mess of something rather than help him out.

I know this is very poor CRM and I do not practice this, but I am sure others do.

Example :
Capt criticised FO for using non-standard phraseology (eg. check not checked)

Later on, "Capt perfect" parks at the wrong aerobridge (I almost seen it happen at least more then once, but I spoke up).

The FO sits there with big grin on his face thinking "you are far from perfect too".

Now what were you saying about standard phraseology captain perfect ? Is that more important than parking at the correct bay ? Who is the d!ckhead now ?

[John Citizen]

Except you can't enjoy your job without partaking in something that is irrelevant, not part of that job and to be honest quite antisocial! How do you think people enjoy your company when you've got your nose buried in the latest Mills and Boon?


I normally let the captain lead the way, as I know there a few in the minority who discourage reading.

If he reads, then I usually read as well.

If he doesn't read, then usually neither will I.

If the conversation has run dry and we got absolutely nothing to talk about anymore, then I do not see it as antisocial.

[mrdeux]

I've had various theories on this over the years. So, on a two man medium haul operation, where you don't have any crew relief, I consider a short period of reading to be your break. But you won't be sitting there for hours reading a novel. Probably 30 minutes tops.

On long haul ops, with extra crew, then you have ample time to read when off the flight deck.

Domestic ops...not at all.

[Chesty Morgan]

I find it hard to believe that you can respect someone if you do not like them.

I didn't say that. What I said was I expect them to respect my position, rank and authority. As I also respect theirs. It's professional respect, personality shouldn't come into it.

Do you like every single person who you work with, personally? Probably not but you still, I hope, respect them professionally.

I know this is very poor CRM and I do not practice this, but I am sure others do.

It's not only poor CRM it's unprofessional and dangerous. Bottom line is if my F/O knowingly allowed me to make a mistake he would be off my aeroplane in very short order.

I normally let the captain lead the way, as I know there a few in the minority who discourage reading.

Ok, that's fair enough. Although I still maintain my point of view.

Anyway, we digress.

[The African Dude]

SOPs only cover Standard situations... hence the name! Airmanship forms the basis of these instructions.

People don't want or feel inclined to act as a good resource to a colleague they disrespect or cannot communicate with.

[Patty747400]

This thread just shows many pilots have different pet subjects. Some guys never use intersection take off, some guys always use max reverse, some guys never reads on the flight deck etc.

They are all wrong. Good CRM, airmanship and situational awareness is the ability to adjust to the situation at hand.

Whenever I hear someone say "I never do this" or "I always do that" I know he's a pilot who lacks confidence and is afraid of making decisions.

[Quality Time]

I occasionally read something in the cruise but prefer not to and try to keep it to a minimum.

I basically agree with the OP and I too am happy to be considered a bit of a dinosaur. I get annoyed with some FO's when operating the aircraft appears to be a bit of a distraction from being forced to sit there and read newspapers for a living.

I had a head - on in the cruise airmiss years ago and If I had been reading a paper that day it might well have been catastrophic.

[IGh]

Comment from R...C...:"... won't be long before casual reading material will be banned ... too many people ... too casual about it. ... manager/regulator?"
Various "operators" currently do have a standard explicitly prohibiting their pilots from such "reading".

Mergers have introduced that "standard" to some pilots who previously had no such prohibition. The USA's Safety Board heard from one merger-group, where pilots did NOT "buy-in" to some of the new (merged) company's "standards". [So, what's the story, does the new Delta "Policy Manual" prohibit "reading" for pleasure while serving as PF or while PM???]

The pilots' Professional Standards committees have mostly NOT been active in either setting or keeping-up such Cockpit Housekeeping "standards" -- their role has drifted into other areas (disagreements between pilots).

[Oyindo]

(until I ask them to either stop doing so, or otherwise hand over their duties as PF or PNF to me and take an official Crew Fatigue Management break, doing with it as they see fit)

The cockpit environment must be pretty boring. It if happens regularly on your flight then, take a good inward look, otherwise they may be looking next at the escape rope round the neck, after a 4 sector day.:bored:

[The African Dude]

OK, Roger. I would still maintain that good CRM depends upon both pilots getting on well together.

AD

[Pugilistic Animus]

Airmanship is a non-concept; we use the ops manual and SOP's. CRM is about maximising the use of all resources, nothing to do with how well you get on together.

Airmanship is a mind set that can not be written, it the sum of all those little things-has nothing to do with SOPs or OpsSpecs, neither of which replaces airmanship although it apparently tries

[Pugilistic Animus]

here's an Airmanship example..yes I know it's so old

YouTube - United 1448 Runway Incursion at Francis Green, RI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cofPH1y9vuw)

listening to other radio transmissions, watching all runway intersections even with 'clearance' ...airmanship is when you adapt the Old smokey Axiom 'Trust Nothing; trust No One' and when you can perhaps make an informed decision to slow way way down:ouch::}

[The African Dude]

Fair point. We should know our weaknesses though and being sat next to somebody who winds you up can be a terrible distraction - regardless of how good your CRM is!

That being said, I agree with your inference on the dangers of 'friendly' complacency!

[ShotOne]

This puts me in mind of a (now long-retired) senior trainer who spent most of the flight head-down preparing a sim scenario but exploded with red-faced fury when I opened a newspaper.

[IFly86N]

Chesty sez:

It's not only poor CRM it's unprofessional and dangerous. Bottom line is if my F/O knowingly allowed me to make a mistake he would be off my aeroplane in very short order.That is, if you lived to talk about it afterward. Think Western Airlines/Mexico City, ca. 10/31/1979.

Let's reverse roles here (and use the example of the incident above) and see where your "infallible" captain leads you.

The FO reminds you numerous times that RWY 23L is closed due to construction, but you line up on it and insist on landing on it. On final the FO is now screaming that 23L is CLOSED, but (you) the captain ignore all of this.

Result? A lot of dead bodies (72) and a wrecked DC-10-10.

Your analogy works both ways, chief. Your attitude, to be polite, is both errant and arrogant.

[Chesty Morgan]

And your attitude is both ignorant and presumptuous. Chief.

You mention infallible. Why?

Inclusion of the word 'knowingly' effectively precludes the presumption of infallibility on the part of the first officer. Maybe I should have used 'deliberately' instead.

It should be fairly obvious that I do not consider myself infallible as your kindly highlighted text shows.

You also presume that I would ignore the protestations of my first officer.
but (you) the captain ignore all of this.

So you think we should allow a deliberately obstructive first officer to remain on the flight deck. A first officer who will deliberately not correct you when you make a mistake.

I hope you can see the difference between a captain who ignores his first officer and a first officer who will deliberately not correct a captain who makes a genuine mistake.

[johns7022]

We have a new law in my state where you can't hold a cell phone up to your ear and drive at the same time...it's a distraction and accidents have been caused this way.

All of us know, that if we went to sim training, on a LOFT, springloaded for the guy behind us to pull some scenario on us, the last thing we would be doing is pulling out a newspaper......

All that said....can a pilot do an 8 hour flight, checking and double checking everything, going through flight planning and weather, scanning instruments for minute changes and trends, digging through the manuals for little pieces of info that haunt us... going through maintenance logs, constantly looking for alternates and checking the status of them, looking for smooth area and checking temps up ahead...

Imagine flying the president of the United States, 30 babies, 10 intensive car patients, a cargo hold of a deadly vaccine, 10 nuclear weapons...

You bet we would be jacked up the whole flight, spring loaded to save the world with our flight skills..

I know that we can read a newspaper and fly a plane, but the right way to do it, is to find stuff to do, that constantly mitigates the risk away from a flight...

The question is...how far do we go to be that perfect pilot....

All of us should be in a sim once a month, reading manuals and books at night, running marathons everyday, and springloaded for a problem on everyflight, running scenarios in our heads every ten seconds....

But like I said before, when 200 hour pilots are being stuffed into the right seat and a million other transgressions, it's tough to be the one guy that standing up for the the right way to do things, when the standards are constantly being dropped for expedience and cost.

I get lazy like the next guy, but I can say that in my flight depts...I try to bring the A game....TRY being the operative word.

[411A]

Maybe its because they were treated that way by their superiors in the military, and now they have there turn to treat others that way too
Could well be.
Personally, I have little respect for ex-mil fast jet types, as they can be a pain.
Really.
Ex-transport mil guys, on the other hand...generally good operators.

[IFly86N]

Chesty,

And your attitude is both ignorant and presumptuous. Chief.
To start, two points to clear the air:

1. I'm not out to pick a fight. You seem to be a rational, clear thinker. I have agreed many times with most of your posts/statements.

You mention infallible. Why? 2. I used the term "infallible" in a general sense. It was not directed at you personally. So no ad hominem was intended.

So let's move on with other things.

Inclusion of the word 'knowingly' effectively precludes the presumption of infallibility on the part of the first officer. Maybe I should have used 'deliberately' instead.
Agreed. Deliberately would have been a better word. Knowingly permits a "gray area" when the FO:

(1) knowingly allowed the CA to make a mistake, but maybe was held back by some sense of inferiority (that "Assertiveness With Authority" thing, or whatever they call it);

(2) or he just unknowingly allowed the CA to make the mistake. (Age, experience, et al.)

Early in my aviation career, I was certainly guilty of the first. But I know better these days.

You also presume that I would ignore the protestations of my first officer.Never said that about you. My original quote was a hypothetical. I'm quite sure that you would listen and respect your FO's concerns.

But I'll address this a little closer further down.

So you think we should allow a deliberately obstructive first officer to remain on the flight deck. A first officer who will deliberately not correct you when you make a mistake.

I hope you can see the difference between a captain who ignores his first officer and a first officer who will deliberately not correct a captain who makes a genuine mistake.You'll get no argument from me on either point. An FO who deliberately does not correct me before the commission of mistake is a dangerous pilot. And probably will wind up being a dead pilot (i.e., a fatal crash, not by murder.)

So this leads me to my story about the Western Airlines/Mexico City crash in 1979:

According to the full NTSB report, the FO was holding a serious grudge/hatred against that CA. On approach into MEX, the crew was given the ILS 23R, but the captain lined up with 23L (no one knows why). The FO knew full well that RWY was closed for construction (very recently). So he was deliberately trying to embarrass the CA if he did, indeed, land on 23L.

What the FO did NOT anticipate was heavy construction equipment on RWY 23L.

Oops. 79 dead. All because of a lousy grudge.

Lesson: Cockpits are the last places to be holding grudge and/or ego matches.

-------------------------------------------------

On topic, I fly lots of LH stuff across the Big Waters. There's a time and place for reading. And a time and place for paying attention to the airplane. I think two/three sharp guys/gals in the cockpit can distinguish the two.

Be safe out there!

[Chesty Morgan]

-86N,

Okay, my apologies. First for not being clear enough. Secondly for misinterpreting your post.

Thanks for clearing up the Western Airlines accident, the small matter of large equipment on the runway. Which I missed. There's a lesson there!

Keep the blue bit up:ok:

[john_tullamarine]

Or, as a wise man once observed with tongue in cheek, "I just fly the cockpit and keep it fine - everyone else is bolted to my tail and along for the ride"

[IGh]

From Ifly86N, on the 2nd:
"... my story about the Western Airlines/Mexico City crash in 1979 ... the full NTSB report, the FO was holding a serious grudge/hatred against that CA... So he was deliberately trying to embarrass the CA ... land on 23L.... FO did NOT anticipate was heavy construction equipment on RWY 23L.... All because of a lousy grudge...."
Hmmm, an NTSB report?????? A grudge listed in the P.C.?????

Where did you get this information about Western 2605 / 31Oct79 DC-10-10, N903WA, Landing accident at Mexico City Rwy 23L ???

I don't think there was any NTSB report on that mishap in MEXICO. I only found that Mexican AAR: Crew failed to make the standard altitude call-outs during the approach. \\ P.C. = Non compliance with meteorological/approach minima, failure to comply with ops procedures during instrument approach, landing on a closed runway.

[IFly86N]

IGh,

From Ifly86N, on the 2nd:"... my story about the Western Airlines/Mexico City crash in 1979 ... the full NTSB report, the FO was holding a serious grudge/hatred against that CA... So he was deliberately trying to embarrass the CA ... land on 23L.... FO did NOT anticipate was heavy construction equipment on RWY 23L.... All because of a lousy grudge...."
Hmmm, an NTSB report?????? A grudge listed in the P.C.?????

Where did you get this information about Western 2605 / 31Oct79 DC-10-10, N903WA, Landing accident at Mexico City Rwy 23L ???

I don't think there was any NTSB report on that mishap in MEXICO. I only found that Mexican AAR: Crew failed to make the standard altitude call-outs during the approach. \\ P.C. = Non compliance with meteorological/approach minima, failure to comply with ops procedures during instrument approach, landing on a closed runway.I can't recite my original source material right now because I'm away from home. You are correct in assuming that current Internet searches won't lead you to the correct analysis of this accident.

I did a long study of WA 2605 as part of an in-depth CRM course in college twelve years ago.

Buzz me next week (as a reminder) and I'll dig up (from my archives) all that I have on this accident. Can't do it now as I'm sitting in a hotel in BAH drinking the amber nectar from the green bottle(s) all during Ramadan.

Bottom line remains: The FO had it out for the CA, and the result was not happy.

Not trying to evade you; but followup later.

Thanks.

[pilot999]

Whats the best hand held game to use in flight PSP or NDS, also is their an easy way to hot wire the sound into your headsett??

[Basil]

It's entirely at the discretion of the captain.

There, that was easy, wasn't it? ;)

[Gyro Nut]

Recently, I had a F/O pull out a newspaper on me in the middle of an annual route proficiency check. How's that for audacity.

[de facto]

You ran out of questions or?:E

[Gyro Nut]

No, I was in the left seat, and I wanted to see if the check captain was going to say something and he didn't. I was hoping for something to come out during the de-briefing, but it didn't. Next time, I think I will politely say I don't think it's really on to pull out a newspaper during a check flight.

[Denti]

What about the check captain pulling out newspapers already on the ground, getting bored by them and falling asleep right after gear up to wake up on touchdown 2,5 hours later? Not to mention that he was the postholder training as well. And yes, although he complained about the touchdown (because it woke him up) we both passed...

[glendalegoon]

When I first joined my airline (over 25 years ago). Reading in the cockpit was not that uncommon. But so was smoking.

FAST FORWARD to more automatic jets and VP flying (that's vice president of flying) in the jumpseat of some guy flying from california to back east.

Captain was reading a novel. Plane flying fine, making turns on airways etc. Two hours into the fight, VP flying asks the captain: what state are we over?

SILENCE.

He didn't know.

Soon after we got a memo: NO MORE READING in the cockpit.

WE also stopped the smoking.

I THINK not concentrating on your flight is just asking for a problem. I was reading another thread where one pilot indicated he was always looking for places to land. Another said this was to be ridiculed.

IT is obvious to me who the better pilot is. YOU take care of YOUR flight before anything else.

[Piltdown Man]

Has the stopping of smoking in the cockpit made your crews more aware of which State they are flying over?

PM

[SawMan]

Has the stopping of smoking in the cockpit made your crews more aware of which State they are flying over?

PM

It at least makes for better cockpit visibility so you can look out the windows hoping to find a landmark a bit more easily :8

[FLCH]

Nah ...the newspapers serve as a sunshield so looking out the window is not an option.
Maybe looking in the Navdata to see which the navaid you are passing over might work ? :)

[Denti]

Read a study recently that claimed that anything that keeps pilots mentally engaged is a good thing as the alternative is that they are in danger of falling asleep out of pure boredom. And reading newspapers can serve as a means to keep a minimal level of mental engagement going, however reading books (apart from company manuals) is usually frowned upon, as is playing computer games, especially networked games with your colleague on the other side.

As we use iPads for company training and documentations now i just keep my flight subscription on that as well and peruse the jobs section during especially boring times.

[Mikehotel152]

I've always felt that the sign of a good line check is when the check Captain gets out his newspaper. ;)

Joking aside, I have read this thread and must admit that I do not have a problem with pilots reading in the cruise provided they maintain a good degree of situational awareness. This IS possible.

In my experience, 95% of pilots read in the cruise on a regular basis with no obvious negative effect. Moreover, the vast majority of missed RT calls or loss of situational or temporal awareness is actually the result of intense conversations - work-related or casual - between pilots.

Where is the evidence that reading inflight is dangerous? :confused:

Surely reading, talking or taking photographs is ok if the circumstances permit it to be done without impinging on safety or in-flight procedures? There is a time and a place for everything.

[deptrai]

Gyro Nut resurrected a four year old thread.

[cavortingcheetah]

Next time some little whippersnapper pulls out a newspaper on a check flight just fail the auto pilot on him for the remainder of the sector.
That should sort out his attitude problem.

[Piltdown Man]

...just fail the auto pilot on him for the remainder of the sector.

Which leaves the aircraft with an idiot in the left seat. This action is more crass than letting matey boy read; for so many reasons.

PM

[SumFingWong]

Notice the original bloke says thats hes an Aussie ?

Aussies think they are laid back - but are in fact some of the most uptight and anal micro-managing pilots ive flown with !