Situational Awareness

[Hap Hazard]

I find it increasingly frightning just how many singles are flown on a regular basis overhead the gliding site at Husband Bosworth at 2000ft or lower.. .Everytime I have been out to the site this year there has been a minimum of at least one aircraft a day flying directly overhead.. .Considering how busy this place gets, and the altitudes gained of the winch, it seems only a matter of time before a potential incident occurs.. .Why cant people read maps anymore, or are they just spending all their time following a GPS that doesnt cater for restricted airspace...come on you guys/girls be a bit more aware of your surroundings!!

[long final]

Sabb Boy and enyone else who can spread some light on this subject. . .. .This is not meant to offend - I really don't know the answer - is a gliding site restricted airspace? . .. .I will keep quite until I have an answer to that, be it from here or elsewhere before I pass a few comments on this.. .. .Thanks. .LF

[fireflybob]

I think you will find that most glider sites have an ATZ which extends up to 2,000 ft agl but quite a few do winch launches to heights exceeding this - Syerston springs to mind with winching up to 3,000 ft - I certainly wouldn't want to get wrapped around any of those cables so steer well clear!. .. .I suspect that a lot of the problems are caused by everyone wanting to fly around at 2,000 ft in light aircraft, for some strange reason. Admittedly in the UK the cloud base sometimes forces one to do this but why not fly higher to avoid these airspace hazards?

[yellowperil]

to quote from The Rules of the Air Regulations 1991 (Statutory Instrument 1991 no.2437) rule 17:. .. ."whereas aeroplanes shall when converging give way to aerotows and gliders, and gliders shall gove way to balloons, it is the responsibility of all pilots at all times to take all possible measures to avoid collision.". .. .however, be it restricted airspace or not Long Final; would avoiding flying through an area of "intense gliding" at a height where you are likely to encounter some or most of said gliding be a "possible measure(s) to aviod collision"?. .. .yp

[FlyingForFun]

This fits in with flying through an instrument approach, which is being discussed on another thread. Nothing explicit to prevent you from doing it, but is it really a sensible thing to do? No.. .. .Out of interest, though, does anyone know how to tell how how a glider-launching cable goes? The 1/2-million charts indicate which fields use cables, but I can't see any way of finding out how high I have to be to avoid it - so I usually just try to keep well clear. So you have to detour by a couple of miles - not going to make all that much difference really, is it? . .. .FFF. .-------

[bluskis]

Why did someone put an airfield directly under the CPT beacon, fill it with gliders, then semi obscure it on the half million topo.. .Result, the sky over the beacon is filled with transparent objects,well above any airfield zone. At least Booker has a glider symbol to warn transiting aircraft, a zone to separate traffic, and no VOR candle to attract conflicting power craft .

[Skylark4]

Long Final.. . Weston on the green, apart from being a Gliding Site with cables to 3,000 ft., is also a parachute site to 12,000 and a Prohibited Area (or similar, I don`t have a chart handy) We still get aircraft through quite regularly. We read about the fines levied in the Oxford Times.. .. .Mike W

[long final]

Thanks all. One or two thoughts and quotes, though my main point was I didn't think it to be restricted airspace. . .. .Close by, we have have a number of glider sites, one of which with cables to 3000. Now, restricted or not, you/I, in my humble, stay out of the way - as aforementioned cable ( not to mention gliders themselves ) could spoil ones afternoon jolly - BUT, can I ask, how far would our gliding friends ( and I can see a whole load of flack inbound here ) consider their no-go zones to extend? . .. .I consider the areas noted for gliding, and do attempt to avoid, or at worst, overfly at least the cable reach, but on occasion I have been remonstrated with, over the gliding frequency, at distances of over 10nm from the warning area.. .. .Saab Boy's point is a very valid one, and one I back 100%, it is just sometimes I feel there is an attitude of this ( and all that we soar in ) airspace is dedicated ( restricted ) to us.. .. .Perhaps I am just being sensitive having had one or two run-ins. I would appreciate opinions, constructive ones hopefully, as I am not trying to put anyone down - honest.. .. .Regards. .LF

[yellowperil]

Good morning,. .. .just to clear up a couple of things, try and spell right and not offend anyone...!. .. .re. cables and winch launching. Height depends on wind strength and cable length. The latter therefore depends on the size of the airfield/ runway used at the time. I've had launches from 600' to 1850'. Gliding clubs on old WW2 fields can go to 2000' fairly easily. However, although you can go higher (without kiteing), many clubs don't, because then people wouldn't take as many aerotows and the club would lose money. Lasham are notorious for this. . .. .There are exceptions, but as a rule, wire launches to much over 2000' are not that common. . .. .re. 'airspace'; those pilots without Bronze and Cross Country Endorsement are restricterd to 'local soaring' which means within gliding range of the site. 3-5 miles usually covers this. A bollocking from 10nm away is a bit rich, unless you hadn't realised there was a gliding club 1500' underneath you 10 miles ago... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> (just kidding!). .. .I think it's more to do with a difference between the two flying styles that can make glider pilots nervous, but I'll post my thoughts about that after I've had a coffee!. .. .yo

[Final 3 Greens]

Two points. .. .Firstly flying through gliding launch areas is not good airmanship.. .. .Secondly why is there an immediate assumption that this is due to GPS? Any tool is as good or bad as you make it and I felt that SAABboys post was very credible and worthy up to the time that it lumped the blame on this "new fangled" gadget, whereupon it lost some impact for me, as it was addressing a perceived symptom, not the underlying problem causing it.. .. .Flying thoughtlessly along a track line, be it GPS, VOR or chart/dead reckoning produced is not good airmanship.. .. .I use a Garmin GPS92 as a supplement to my traditionally created flight plan, as the "HSI" and "DME" substitute capability it offers are a very useful addition to safe flight.. .. .It does not take more than a second or two every couple of minutes to cross check the GPS against the DI and the chart and it adds clarity to my situational awareness. . .. .So long as one is aware how one's GPS flags up areas of poor signal or zero signal (the former has never occured in using the device since 1998), then I cannot see an argument against it.. .. .In conclusion, I would assert that it is not GPS that is to blame, but rather the navigation awareness/skill of pilots who fly through any areas which good airmanship would avoid.

[Saab Dastard]

What would be very useful is to for each gliding club to publish max winch launch heights that could be represented on the charts, which the gliding club would stick to, and the powered pilots stay out of (plus 500 feet, or something).. .. .&lt;Thought&gt;. .. .I am assuming that most gliding sites do not like thermalling in the overhead, so I would think that (in most cases) flying directly overhead (vertically clear of the launching) is probably as safe or safer than routing nearby.. .. .&lt;/Thought&gt;. .. .SD

[Skylark4]

Gliders are going to form a sort of inverted cone shape around their home airfield. Not a clever idea to fly overhead at or below 2000`as you will pass twice through the circuit and or training area.. . You may meet a glider anywhere, including making unannounced arrivals at your airfield from the wrong direction I`m afraid. Most Glider pilots do not have a Pooleys or similar and have no idea of your radio frequencies. If he is low, below 1000`, he is busy trying to dig himself out of a hole and may not be quite as concious of what is going on around him as he should be. Think of the panic you would be in at 1000` with a dead engine. Do not expect to see gliders only in your windscreen, many of them will cruise faster than you will.. . Most glider pilots will be keeping a better lookout than you are, we are used to flying in close proximity with others and are more concious of the risks - but don`t rely on it. Keep your own lookout, it`s surprising what you will see.. .. .Mike W . .. .P.S. If you have more than one seat in your aircraft, take a spare pair of eyes with you. Even a non-flyer is surprisingly good at spotting other aircraft in the air.

[ShyTorque]

Husband's Bosworth is not restricted airspace.. .. .Therefore it is behoven of every pilot to see and avoid, bearing in mind that gliders have right of way over powered aircraft and I wholeheartedly agree that it is not good airmanship to fly near a glider site at an altitude that may result in a proximity problem, especially if the aircraft is still fastened to the ground. Perhaps the Husband's Bosworth gliding people should be campaigning for an ATZ if their problem is so severe?. .. .In my experience, conflicts sometimes occur in the open FIR when glider pilots expect too much from others, and it has to be said that some do hide behind the hope that power will always be in a position to give way to sail. (I'm not biased, I started out as a young glider pilot 30 years ago).. .. .Some glider pilots expect to be given an extremely wide berth (at all times when it suits them of course) but don't take into consideration the fact that their aircraft may not have been seen due to its small size and white "cloud camouflage". (Of course it is a conflict of human rights to expect a strobe or a transponder, even though these can be solar powered).. .. .It helps the pilot of a powered aircraft in transit past the duty thermal if the glider pilot can tip a wing to indicate that he has seen the other aircraft; it also helps us to see him due to the increased planform view but not many glider pilots do this as they think only of thermalling (or have I spotted many who never saw me at all?).. .. .Most of us (hopefully) do read daily NOTAMS as part of our profession (and religion) but even when the half of southern UK seems to be "reserved" for competitions, many of us still have our job to do in the same altitude bands. Unfortunately it is extremely difficult to spot thermalling gliders, and sometimes it seems like every CU cloud has it's own flock. Some glider pilots are no respecters of restricted airspace themselves..... .. .One of my most frightening aviation incidents ever was caused by a glider pilot who came close to getting a Darwin award at my expense at an RAF aerodrome in the early 1990s. In typical late afternoon summer haze, I was cleared by ATC to line up and wait behind a landing Chipmunk, which I did. The Chipmunk vacated about thirty seconds later and ATC then cleared me for takeoff, and I started to roll at full power. As my aircraft reached about 50 kts, a glider flew over me from behind, about twenty feet up, and landed directly ahead of me in the middle of the runway. There was no way I could stop in time, I had to go past and elected to continue as we were on the short runway (but they're all short when you're going 45 degrees off heading)! I had to swerve very hard and go very close to the edge of the runway to avoid him.. .. .Our SATCO apparently went apoplectic when the glider pilot stomped across to the tower and complained that I should have given way to him! It turned out he was in a competition and so he had a radio and knew the correct frequency but he didn't bother to make any R/T calls even though he had been operating for some time inside the ATZ. He came very close to causing a collision by landing on the runway in use ahead of a rolling aircraft, even though he could have landed anywhere on the airfield grass a quarter of a mile either side of me! It was a good thing he was no longer in the tower on my return or there would probably have been a fistfight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .No, I know most glider pilots aren't normally that stupid! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 04 March 2002, 22:06: Message edited by: ShyTorque ]</small>

[Hap Hazard]

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Like many of you out there I do not mean to offend, but to hopefully make some of us think.. .Thanks for the correction to my post regarding any Restricted airspace re GPS, bad choice of words in this case...sorry, but most of you can see the point, what ever you want to refer to the space around or overhead any gliding or similar site you can argue the toss until the cows come home if you want, but I dont want this to degenerate into a them and us situation.. .The point is that at the end of the day, if an aircraft is seen to be encroaching O/H that can be considered as a conflict when winching is going on, then winching is stopped until they have passed over.. .If they knowingly continued with a launch then they need their bums kicked (ground launch controllers). .Regarding heights gained off a winch depends on wind strength as previously stated in another post, last winch I did in strong winds took me over 2000ft, so yes it can be a serious conflict even at this height.. .Dont forget many sites, including Hus Bos, have aerotowing going on as well.. .Regarding markings on the chart, it is clearly marked on the chart that I have (out of date!!)WITH THE WORDS INTENSE GLIDING.. .It just seems that there APPEARS to me to be a significant number of aircraft that just blindly fly striaght overhead, which brings me to my comment about GPS.. .Assuming that they are on track, if you sat down and planned your journey in the way we were all taught, then your intended track drawn on your chart will highlight any potential Dangerous areas.. .If you are off track then at least I would expect if you have planned your trip with referance to a chart then you would be aware that a site exists in the area, so why then do 99.9% of infringements make a beeline overhead which suggests to me that they have no knowledge of what they are overflying?...and this doesnt just mean gliding sites.... .Please note that I DO NOT REPRESENT the club at Hus Bos, it is purely my opinion, so any comments re- campaining for it to become RESTRICTED airspace would be upto the club committee, not me!. .They wouldnt listen to me anyway!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .Lastly to those of you who suggest that I am refering to GPS as any new fangled invention and am anti GPS, then you are mistaken as I have to rely on some of the lastest gear every day I go to work, plus enhanced GPWS, EFIS, TCAS, blah blah blah, but it doesnt stop us from looking out the window as well!!. .I know it is easy to throw stones and I know that ALL pilots are capable of being positionally challanged, especially glider pilots, but we do need to be aware where we are, why it happens quite so often, that I cannot answer only to ask is it people just blindly following a GPS track or bad training? You tell me..

[FlyingForFun]

Regarding aircraft towing gliders:. .. .I don't view flight in the vicinity of glider towing as being the same as flight in the vicinity of winch launches. The big difference is the cable - which is very difficult to see, has a very large vertical extent, and has no capability to see and avoid me if I should happen to not see it. Even if there's no ATZ to protect the airfield, I don't want to be anywhere near a winch cable, for my own safety!. .. .An aircraft towing a glider, however, is not much different to any other aircraft, except that it has right of way over another aeroplane or helicopter. Therefore, if I'm in the same airspace as a glider being towed, I'll pass behind the glider. This is exactly the same way as I'd normally give way to any other aircraft which has right of way over me - whether it be a glider, an airship, or even another aeroplane that happens to be on my right. I don't see any need to stay clear of areas where glider towing takes place - I just look out for other aircraft, the same as normal, and make sure I know which aircraft have right of way over me. Although I do want to keep a little more distance from a glider (towed or not) than aeroplanes, as has been discussed here many times, because they tend to manoevre more.. .. .(This obviously doesn't apply in the immediate vicinity of an airfield, where, if there's an ATZ, I have to stay clear - or at least talk to someone if I'm not staying clear - and if there's no ATZ then common sense says I should stay clear.). .. .FFF. .-------

[Final 3 Greens]

Skylark4 . .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> You may meet a glider anywhere, including making unannounced arrivals at your airfield from the wrong direction I`m afraid. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Is this good airmanship? Duty circuits are promulgated for the safety of all and I fear a tragic outcome.. .. .Even with duty circuits, middairs do happen - look at the North Weald middair report of a couple of years ago with a C150 and a YAK - 3 dead.. .. .It is very important that we observe duty circuits and I would suggest that a glider which cannot should land in a suitable field.

[Final 3 Greens]

Saab Boy. .. .I don't know why pilots are flying through your overhead at Husbands Bosworth, but I promise it will never be with me as PIC. The last time I was in the vicinity I gave you guys a wide berth and the local ATC unit (sorry cannot remember which one) was also helpfully advising traffic on frequency that your field was very active.. .. .Pleased to hear that you are not against GPS per se: it is not a panacea for all evils, but I believe if properly used that it is a very useful aid to navigation.