Pay Rise on the horizon..

[ASH1111]

Thought I would throw this out there, I spoke with a well connected individual today that indicated that a hefty pay-rise is close at hand, unfortunately, it may be coupled with a reduction of housing benefits to based individuals.

FWIW.

Keep positive.

[NoAndThen]

A couple things,

First, a "pay-rise" with a reduction in housing is not a pay rise at all. It will most likely be a pay cut, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were a substantial one at that. WTF is wrong with this picture? We post a record semiannual profit and we're looking at a cut at housing????

Secondly, what is going on with these housing talks? The Company agrees to extend the housing to 25-years, and now we're talking a reduction in housing benefits? Why is the GC is tight-lipped about what is going on???

[Hellenic aviator]

hefty pay-rise is close at hand, unfortunately, it may be coupled with a reduction of housing benefits to based individuals.

Isn't that an oxymoron? :}

[Harbour Dweller]

Define "hefty"?

[pasa001]

Quote:
hefty pay-rise is close at hand, unfortunately, it may be coupled with a reduction of housing benefits to based individuals.

What housing reduction to based individuals are we talking about? Based individuals do not receive housing. If this is what I think it entails we could be on a slippery slope , if we continue along this path we will truly regret this in the near future.

[ASH1111]

Based pilots would only be eligible for Base Housing rate (24K HKD) if they elect to return to HKG. I hope this is categorically false, and that the pay rise rumour is true!:ok:


Keep positive guys, but eyes wide open.

[crwjerk]

The message here are obvious. Not sure why we need a to complete a survey to show our thoughts on what should be in the pay talks.
The AOA must not negotiate anything other than a PAYRISE, no reductions in any other condition. if they spring that **** on us, WALK OUT!!!!!!
NO from management is not an acceptable answer this time............

[Humber10]

Hefty payrise = 3% , RA 70, No BPP in COS, O.T. threshold increased to 92hrs (as we like to work so much), Housing reduced to new base rate 10K per month. :}

[geh065]

Does anyone really think they will give us something for nothing in return when we aren't twisting their arm in any way?

[RookieRookie]

Does the company have to get approval from the AOA before they can impose the new rules? If yes, then I guess we don't need to worry about the new AFTL , and BPP, and etc.. because the AOA will never agree with them. I m much more relief now=D

I hate the idea of 3 men crew to Europe, the idea of avoiding BPP, the idea of reduced housing allowance. It seems to me all of that are happening now. Are we really still in control?

[Flap10]

Just to play the devil's advocate here, to pay a base housing allowance for someone who voluntarily elects to return from a base is not unreasonable.

The whole point of the expat housing allowance was to entice people in coming to Hong Kong. If you voluntarily choose to come back why should you get the full housing allowance?? The main argument of having an expat package to begin with is to attract talent and experience. Well you took the offer and came to Hong Kong on full expat benefits, you then made another crucial decision and chose to be based. Just because you've gotten bored on a base, or realized that the taxes are taking a big chunk of your disposable income isn't really Cathay's fault. Many LEPs hail from Australia, Canada, UK, etc. if they take a base and in two years decide to return to Hong Kong, shouldn't they also then get full housing?

[404 Titan]

Flap10

Just to play devil’s advocate in the response. Most pilots coming off the bases do so to do a command that is only available if you return to Hong Kong. It is essentially a forced return to Hong Kong but if the company has its way, on reduced terms.

[Frogman1484]

Here is a refreshing thought. If you want housing why don't you make a choice of leaving behind your family and friends and go and work for Ek. Rather than reducing the conditions of another fellow crew member.
Some of us take a basing for our children so that they can have a chance to bond with their grandparents and build their lives in a more healthy environment. Something which you take for granted!

So Flap 10, why don't you tell your fellow LEP to stop working on G days and stop trying to screw everyone by trying to make sense of a management
deception. Plus if they stop housing for the based guys no one will come back effectively blocking up the bases for the rest of us.

Let's face it a based pilot cost is zero for housing. Even if he moves back someone will take his place. Once housing goes the attack on cos will increase because Cx has no skin in the game.
After 10 years and 3% increase. Cx should rather give us a meaningful increase and no reduction of terms we have earned it!!!

[stillalbatross]

JUst to play devils advocate again, on most bases the pay scale is close to the package of the legacy carrier we compete against. So be it that command upgrades on bases with us will probably take as long as it does with them.

Can't have your early command and your base too.


Well......


Unless you work for nothing on the freighter.

[SMOC]

Forced to take a command in HK :{:{:{:{ don't join if you don't want to live in HK at some point :=

[fire wall]

Just another divide and conquer measure by management, pit one beneficiary against another - and you clowns will fall for it.
Little wonder why I dissuade my children from what once was a "profession".

[Unregistered_pilot]

Top Tip…Just buy a place before Sept 2011 (when the housing policy comes up for renewal)

[404 Titan]

SMOC

You have misquoted/misinterpreted what I said but I will let it slide because I’m sure you knew what I was trying to say. For the record I’m HK based.

[nitpicker330]

stillalbatross..........JUst to play devils advocate again, on most bases the pay scale is close to the package of the legacy carrier we compete against

You must be dreaming, Oz "B Scale" CN is about 30 to 50K behind the QF 330 CN Pay. "A Scale" is also behind, but very close.

[fly123456]

The problem is that the rules keep on changing:

I was forced to join on a base, with a VETA contract, paying taxes in HK. Now we have on-shoring, have to pay taxes in Europe...
So in short, we have seen our salary being reduced by 30%

If you want to reduce the housing of ex-based crew, then you need to give them (and only them) a hefty pay-rise.
And why not reducing your housing by 70% to finance it? (but of course, in exchange, you can have your 20K for 25 years)

What do you think of that proposal? Probably the same as what we think about the initial proposal! :yuk:

[Flap10]

404 Titan,

The seniority system (rightly so) doesn't allow a based FO to do a command on a base out of seniority. Therefore he/she has no choice but to come back to Hong Kong for a command course and wait in seniority again for a base. This is deemed as an involuntary return not a voluntary return.

Frogman,

Plus if they stop housing for the based guys no one will come back effectively blocking up the bases for the rest of us.

Why don't you look up the term permanent!

Firewall,

We are all clowns, including you, and not only that but also cowardly clowns! The reason this isn't a profession anymore is because we never stood up to them decades ago. Don't blame the younger generation, it was the fault of our generation!!!

[711]

Smog, Stillalbatros and Flap 10

It is because of individuals like you that CX developped the divide and conquer strategy, as it has been said before.

Following your "arguments" a based guy has no right to come to HK with housing, even if he is in the company for many many years, would never ever have joined under those circumstances and only comes to HK for an "early"(very funny by the way) command.

Are you completely out of your mind?????

If one JOINS as a cadet without housing, it is a totally different story, it was never on the table. When CX decided to decrease pay it didn't touch the salary of those already in the company, only newjoiners were affected, same story.
What you guys are saying now is, that it is ok to degrade the contract AFTER joining, totally different thing. With the same method one day YOUR conditions will be eroded, don't you guys get that???

[SMOC]

A command in Hong Kong forced due to seniority will receive housing, what I think CX is after is, if you decide on a base that you now want to come to HK because you can ie not forced like an S/O new joiner or due to your command, they want to cut that out. Yet a further reduction to our COS.

404 not having a go at you, appologies.

It's the crowd that refuse a command because it's in HK, when it's a HK airline.

711 We all know CX has reduced the package probably since before B scale, the problem is when will we say enough is enough?

Seems the Dunnunder forum may have reached that point.

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/423751-pilots-australia-time-unite-meeting-aug-23-a.html

[Flap10]

fly123456,

I was forced to join on a base, with a VETA contract, paying taxes in HK. Now we have on-shoring, have to pay taxes in Europe...
So in short, we have seen our salary being reduced by 30%

Nobody forced you into joining anything. If you were duped by Cathay thinking you could live and work in Europe without paying taxes in Europe then you only have yourself to blame.

If you want to reduce the housing of ex-based crew, then you need to give them (and only them) a hefty pay-rise.
And why not reducing your housing by 70% to finance it? (but of course, in exchange, you can have your 20K for 25 years)

Yes I agree that the salaries have fallen way behind the drag curve on bases, and hopefully that will be remedied soon.

711,

It is because of individuals like you that CX developped the divide and conquer strategy, as it has been said before.

As it has been said before, it is only because of a weak pilot body that we find ourselves in this predicament. I don't need to remind you how many people went and bought trampolines when the company only recently said jump. If you were one of those who never abandoned the 49ers, never worked on a G day, never used discretion, never took a training position, said no to SLS, said no to CoS08, etc..then my hat off to you, otherwise you can run along little boy.

Just because someone has a varying opinion doesn't mean it is all about divide and conquer. If you are going into negotiations then you best be sure of your strengths, capabilities, and be realistic in what is achievable.

Following your "arguments" a based guy has no right to come to HK with housing, even if he is in the company for many many years, would never ever have joined under those circumstances and only comes to HK for an "early"(very funny by the way) command.


The bases were never meant to be a go as you please come back as you please offer.

[fly123456]

The bases were never meant to be a go as you please come back as you please offer.

Weren't they? Hence the possibility for DEFO to come to Hong-Kong after having done 3-4 years? And on full expats benefits!

This create some kind of movement, so people can get out of polluted Hong-Kong for some years, then eventually get back into it.
If you remove housing, I doubt many will ever make the move back to Hong-Kong.
We will end up having people on bases who want to be in HK, but cannot afford to do it, and more commuters out of HK. Don't see how we could win from this?

Furthermore, when people on full housing will eventually be a minority, what do you think will happen? Who will fight for YOUR rights then?

[SMOC]

Funny you should say that, maybe we should fight for CEPs while they are still the minority, because they are going to be the majority sooner than later. :eek:

[2 cents]

What a complete joke. After shafting us for more than 15 years, there is not much left shaft us on. So now they are trying to go after housing. You have to realise that it will NEVER end. They will never stop, they will never be happy. Enough is enough. We have helped this company post RECORD profits, and have not had a payrise in 10 years! It is time for a payrise now, and I'm not talking about a payrise that is linked to MAJOR contract concessions.

We haven't seen anything on paper yet, but let's just say that any attempt at contract concessions/degradations in the current record profit environment would not be warmly recieved.

[Waterskier]

I think the thread should be retitled "Pay Cut on the Horizon"

As far as I'm concerned...
My Pay = Salary + Housing + PF +HDP + Allowances.

Decreasing/eliminating Housing would require a very substantial (ie. $8,000 USD a month) salary increase to call this a pay rise.

But back to my original posting and let's wait to see whats being presented before we rumour how bad this could get. Otherwise, there's expectation management in play.

[crwjerk]

Waterskier,
And the rest!!! A payrise of that amount would merely replace your housing allowance and you'd have nothing extra

[letsfly75]

I don't know if I'm catching all the nuances here but if the housing allowance in Hong Kong drops I'll just keep my base. I was planning on moving to HK after my 4 years in the states was up but if the housing allowance essentially disappears I'll just hold my base forever. Even if I have to stay FO I'll just hold on to it and avoid HK.

[411A]

if they spring that **** on us, WALK OUT!!!!!!


Hmmm, shades of the 49ers, again...with a new twist.:rolleyes:

[Frogman1484]

Flap10
Why should you get housing ? You are a local right. Do guys on a base get housing?

What is the cost of having the normal housing on a based pilot contract? Zero$$$

It is there purly to stop Cx from degrading the conditions to a point that you need to come back to HKG.

Once housing goes what is going to stop them from working you to death or imposing a salary cut? Nothing.

Can you not see what managememt is doing here. Why would they want to take something away that costs them nothing?

So for one moment take off your $$ glasses and think about what you are saying.

[Forward CofG]

I can't believe that when the company is making so much money, there are people who would even consider any kind of reduction to Housing or Pay, or anything for that matter. It has already been 10 years without a pay rise. How much longer will it take for people to realise now is the time to stand together.

Many may not like the AOA, but it is the only show in town. If you wish to be heard, join.

We are coming into another boom period and I for one would like a substantial pay rise without selling out any new joiners or junior crew.

[Bob Hawke]

The company will become truly divided by removing housing, and or being eligible to be on base; as the next logical step is to creating a seniority system based on Base. It will be a separate airline in many respects with differing contracts of which you wont be eligible for and thus excluded.

[FO4EVA]

lol, 2 pages of bickering and not a shred of fact......
Classic pilot rumour network:hmm:

[Ex Cathedra]

and not a shred of fact......


This IS a rumour forum, as its name vaguely reveals...

And furthermore, the rumours about contract modifications that pop up on here do have that eerie tendency of never being too far from the money, give or take the occasional wild prognostic.

And it doesn't exactly take a crystal ball to figure out that no matter the situation, our dear management will do anything to try and squeeze more out of us, and trying to disguise it as a 'payrise' is just one of the vile tactics they excel in using.

If a famous fellow Fragrant Harbour patron allows me to paraphrase:

To their bonuses...

[BillytheKid]

To those if you that accuse others if being neive about CX being a HKG based airline that may require one to live in HKG at some point, allow me to retort. Our neivity is equalled by your ignorance in thinking there is still an operational reason to live in HKG. Additionally, while you help management divide our ranks you fail to realize that this would be a degredation of terms for our pilot group at a time of outstanding financials. Who is the one being neive?

*Disclaimer* I have no idea how to actually spell the word neive and I am too lazy to look it up.

[The Wraith]

Billy, it is NAIVE. (I think!)
And you are right on the money.:ok:

[goathead]

until we as members get rid of the AOA committee or at least most of them and turn it into a exec committee without so many different agendas secret or not and one term wonders ( and a few idiots as well ) it's just going to keep happening like history repeating itself over and over and over and over again..... seriously when will we ALL wake up and realise that committees just don't work ...never have never will.

[BillytheKid]

Billy, it is NAIVE. (I think!)
And you are right on the money.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Thanks! How naive if me.:p

[The Wraith]

....naive if you or OF you?!!

Sorry, I'm just being an ass now!!!:ok:

[BillytheKid]

Let's go with of.