P/ut P1 P1/s Picus??????

[Okavango]

I need to correct my records for solo hours during training. The CAA asked me to refer to them as P1 (rather than P/UT which I used). However, the Jepperson logbook seems to make reference to PICUS for this and Pooley's uses P1/S (though in their example then records them in the Dual or P2 column rather then the P1 column just to clarify things!!). I thought P1/S (ie P1 under supervision) was only to be used for time in a flight test? What have others recorded their P1 time during training as?

[rkgpilot]

I logged P1 when solo pre-licence and P1/S for the flight test. Both in the P1 column. I have only had my licence for a couple of weeks and the CAA issued it without any problems. What did your CFI say or suggest when he signed off the log-book before sending to the CAA?

On a similar note - after qualifying PPL, if I have a lesson with an instructor to brush up on or revise any aspect of PPL flying training, do I log this P/UT or P1/S? Is there any difference between that and say, undertaking new training (e.g. night qualification, IMC etc)

[Talkdownman]

Oh Lord, he we go again.

I think the UK CAA should re-issue the AIC regarding Recording Of Flight Time.

P1/S when conducting differences training in other aircraft after I got my licence. Then logged in P1 column.

The word 'training' begins with a 't'. A Pilot Under Training when undertaking differences training logs the flight time as PUT. The pilot cannot be P1, S or otherwise, until the training has been completed.

P1/S is for flight test. Training and testing, and a commander and trainee, are different things, believe it or not.

Guidance for the Recording Of Flight Time within the UK is in LASORS.

[S-Works]

P1/S when conducting differences training in other aircraft after I got my licence. Then logged in P1 column.

Oh god................ :ugh:

P1/S is only ever used for the successful completion of a flight test or in certain circumstances during an integrated ATPL course.

It is never used for differences training, this is always PUT.

It is very simple and god knows why people make such a meal of it.

P1 - Solo - you are in command
PUT - Dual - recieving training
P1/s - Skill test - you were acting as commander under supervision of the examiner.

[tmmorris]

Yes, but isn't an unsuccessful flight test PUT?

Which rather muddies the waters.

Tim

[Duchess_Driver]

Does one need to ask what the instructor/CFI were doing in allowing a logbook to be submitted to the CAA with these glaring errors in them?

[liam548]

That's all noted. In fact the logbook has not been sent to caa since as obviously differences flights were post ppl. This can and will be easily corrected.

:)

[liam548]

I logged P1 when solo pre-licence and P1/S for the flight test. Both in the P1 column. I have only had my licence for a couple of weeks and the CAA issued it without any problems. What did your CFI say or suggest when he signed off the log-book before sending to the CAA?

On a similar note - after qualifying PPL, if I have a lesson with an instructor to brush up on or revise any aspect of PPL flying training, do I log this P/UT or P1/S? Is there any difference between that and say, undertaking new training (e.g. night qualification, IMC etc)

Lessons I've had post ppl to brush up (PFLs EFATO etc) have been logged PUT on my part.

[Talkdownman]

if I have a lesson with an instructor to brush up on or revise any aspect of PPL flying training, do I log this P/UT or P1/S?
P1/S, P1U/S, PICUS, call it what you will, is for the result of a successful TEST, in which case exceptionally both you and the examiner may log PIC column time.
If not a TEST only one of you can be PIC so you had better agree with the instructor BEFORE THE FLIGHT who is to be PIC. A 'brush-up', or 'revision', smacks of Pilot Under Training to me...

Is there any difference between that and say, undertaking new training (e.g. night qualification, IMC etc)Both are further training for a further qualification. Successful IMC TEST may be P1/S, P1U/S, PICUS, and must be countersigned by the examiner.

It's all in LASORS...free download...on the CAA website.....

[rkgpilot]

Good. Glad I've been doing it right then.

[jollyrog]

Can anyone tell me which is the best headset please?

[Fuji Abound]

I dont care.

[S-Works]

tmmorris
*
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 1,086
Yes, but isn't an unsuccessful flight test PUT?

Which rather muddies the waters.

Tim


Yes it is. So why does it muddy the waters?

[Okavango]

Bose-x - regarding your first post - yes it is simple - but then why do Pooleys get it wrong in their example at the front of the book? This isn't a serious question by the way - thanks all for the clarification.

[englishal]

This really is the easiest thing on the planet, so why do so many PPL candidates f**k it up? More to the point are instructors really that sh*te that they can't teach their PPL students what to log? If I were the CAA I'd haul them up in front of me and want to know WTF they can't teach people to do it properly.

So just to summarise what has already been said 10 times:

With an instructor: P/UT (Under Training)
With an examiner, and you pass: P1/S
Solo or none of the above: P1 (PIC or whatever)

Even after your PPL is issued, the above applies in general.

There, difficult?

[S-Works]

Okavango
*
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 295
Bose-x - regarding your first post - yes it is simple - but then why do Pooleys get it wrong in their example at the front of the book? This isn't a serious question by the way - thanks all for the clarification.


As a pilot you are required to know the rules and regs. These are contained in a variety of official sources, JAR FCL, the ANO and the AIP as well as LASORS. I was not aware that pooleys were an official source of information......

As Al says, this is just another example of bad instruction filtering through.

[Fuji Abound]

I am losing the will to live - there must be something more interesting to discuss.

Surely we would be better off just referring people to the SEARCH function.

What about a sticky?

Anything to save us please.

Bose - you are encouraging them - you really should know better. :)

[Spendid Cruiser]

P1/S, P1U/S, PICUS, call it what you will, is for the result of a successful TEST
If you refer to LASORS then yes, that is correct insofar as you are talking about a flight for the purposes of license or rating issue. LASORS does not recognise training that is not for license/rating issue and I really don't know what the legal situation is as I suspect that are not PU/T if you haven't been receiving recognised training.

So for something like a club checkout, either the instructor logs the flight as P1 and you as SNY or you as P1 and him SNY or go for PICUS. I haven't found anything written anywhere and the CAA seems to accept the odd hours of such flights as PICUS (in my case at least).

P1/S when conducting differences training in other aircraft after I got my licence.
Definitely not P1/S as the case is covered in LASORS as Pilot under instruction for the purpose of gaining a licence or rating, or for conversion to an aircraft type within an aircraft rating group or class.

[Talkdownman]

for something like a club checkout, either the instructor logs the flight as P1 and you as SNY or you as P1 and him SNY
A 'club checkout' is purely a 'club' thing. It is not a UK CAA Licensing requirement being neither 'training' nor 'testing', therefore a 'club checkout' does not legally require the 'checker' to be an instructor, or even a licensed pilot for that matter. The club can make its own rules. (I have been 'checked out' within a club environment by more experienced non-FI PPLs and by an unlicensed but experienced pilot with a lapsed medical). It is a matter for the Owner or Operator or the Trustees of the aircraft. Insurers may or may not have some say in the matter. The important thing is to agree who is to be the PIC beforehand considering the multiplicity of circumstances. The PIC must be prepared to take sole responsibility for the flight. The UK CAA would not be interested in anything outside the licensing processes. As a 'club checkout' is not a licensing 'test' PICUS cannot apply. There can only be one PIC. SNY is the other pilot's choice, it cannot be counted for anything other than posterity.

[englishal]

In the case of a "club checkout" the pilot being "checked out" should log the hours IMHO.

The reason I say this is two fold: a) he is probably paying for them and b) insurance requirements may dictate he has been checked out and so he needs to log them.

For example my mate and me own an aeroplane. I have a lot more experience than him in complex fast aeroplanes and so our insurance company has put a restriction on him that he must complete 20 hours dual in the aircraft before he can solo. They say that these 20 hours dual can be with me or with a certified flight instructor (or CRI).

If it is with an FI then he can log P/UT and the FI P1, but he needs to log these hours as per the insurance requirement - else how do they know he has flown these 20 hours if an accident happens later on? If flying with me as safety pilot, then as he is rated to fly the aeroplane he can log them P1 and I'll be there "just in case" and log nothing.

[Talkdownman]

In the case of a "club checkout" the pilot being "checked out" should log the hours IMHO.

The reason I say this is two fold: a) he is probably paying for them and b) insurance requirements may dictate he has been checked out and so he needs to log them.
I agree. In fact I'll go one stage further. If the club requires the 'check out' in order to comply with its own rules then the club should foot the bill for the checkout....

[liam548]

A) When you fly with an instructor at a club check out (e.g you have let the 28 day rule lapse at your airfield) this is logged as you P1.

Be sure that you both agree that you are logging P1 as you cannot both log P1 time.

B) When you do differences training to a PA28 arrow with variable pitch from a standard PA28 or from a Cessna 150 for example this is logged PUT and logged as it was before you got your licence. You can then get the front of the log book signed up to certify you have had such training if you wish.


C) The only time P1/S (and you log the time in the P1 column) is used is following a siuccessful flight test and the examiner countersigns the entry. PPL skills test/IMC test etc



Suggest this be made a sticky as it seems to get asked about many times.

[englishal]

When you fly with an instructor at a club check out (e.g you have let the 28 day rule lapse at your airfield) this is logged as you P1.
That's a local rule at your airfield. The FI is clearly not logging the flight and are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. If they ARE logging the flight then you cannot log P1.

[Desert Strip Basher]

Bose-X "As a pilot you are required to know the rules and regs. These are contained in a variety of official sources, JAR FCL, the ANO and the AIP as well as LASORS. I was not aware that pooleys were an official source of information......"

But then neither are you an official source of information?! So why then should these guys not question such inconsistencies?

Fuji Abound - when you refer to 'them' - don't try to make an inference that you're on the inside - respect all - this thread has obviously been useful to some, it's just a shame self proclaimed 'old hands' try to flex their muscle and belittle others in the process of trying to shade their insecurities.

And I wonder why I stay away from this site so long......

[S-Works]

It's nothing about anyone flexing muscles or belittling people. The rules around logging time are clear. This is an age old thread and if those who read the front cover of pooleys logbooks for guidance bothered to read the correct sources are even use the search facility here they would no the answer and there would be no reason for the old hands to respond.

And as an Instructor and Examiner I believe I am considered to be a purveyor of the official source of information.....

[Fuji Abound]

Fuji Abound - when you refer to 'them' - don't try to make an inference that you're on the inside - respect all - this thread has obviously been useful to some, it's just a shame self proclaimed 'old hands' try to flex their muscle and belittle others in the process of trying to shade their insecurities.

I think you must have missed all the :) along the way!

Frankly I couldnt care less what people discuss, and, in any event, it has nothing to do with me.

I am not even sure I could give you the correct answer - so you can forget all the "old hands" business.

On a more serious note from my own point of view I am being frank when I say I couldnt really care there seem to be far more improtant things, but, whatever floats your boat. :)


And I wonder why I stay away from this site so long......



Then welcome back, or not as you wish. You either visit or you dont. I dont suppose anyone is bothered. :) :)

however, Bose does know his subject, so he is worthwhile reading which of course you would know if you hadnt stayed away for so long. :}

[Okavango]

Without wanting to annoy anyone any further - had a look at Jeppesen (which supposedly applies JAR FCL requirements) last night and that also makes reference to SPIC, Student Pilot In Command entries, as a separate classification to PIC and PICUS (which as per my original note I already understood to be used for test purposes only). It states to have SPIC entries signed off by the instructor. Has anyone applied this process, or as per earlier messages, simply recorded all solo time even in training as P1?

[englishal]

It is just PIC time. If you are solo you are PIC are you not?

Log SPIC by all means for your own fun, but when it comes to license issue the CAA only want to know PIC time and so should be included with the PIC time.

[mad_jock]

SPIC is used under intergrated training to allow students to build PIC time.

It has no place in the logbook of someone who hasn't completed an intergrated course.

PICUS is multi crew or test and the examiner or Captain signs it
PIC is you sign the tech log and Captain the aircraft.
Dual when someone else signs the techlog who has a instructor rating and the purpose of the flight is instruction

Any other theorys on club checkouts etc are rubbish (pish :p)

But I really can't get excited over it for a PPL, it only ever matters when applying for CPL/ATPL and in the event of an accident an insurance company having stipulations.

Its actually quite funny seeing some peoples log books that are hungry for PIC time. They try so hard to log it but they just end up looking like incompetent arses. Yet others don't seem to care one bit and log everything as dual. To be honest there is a strong link between taking the piss with PICUS etc and flying competence. If you spot PICUS entrys before a check ride/hour with an instructor its more than likey the pilot will be talent limited.

[S-Works]

Couldn't have said it better myself MJ, although I was expecting a customary 'phish' to be thrown in.......;)

[BillieBob]

A few years ago there was an enterprising FI at a certain airfield in the east midlands who had his PPL students log all of their solo flights as SPIC, on the not entirely illogical basis that they were Student Pilots and were flying as pilot In Command under his supervision.

As if that weren't bad enough.... yep, you guessed it, because LASORS states "The holder of an instructor rating may log as pilot-in-command all flight time during which he acts as an instructor in an aeroplane or supervises SPIC flying." he then entered as PIC in his own logbook all of the time that his students were flying solo.

It's true - I swear!

[Spendid Cruiser]

If you spot PICUS entrys before a check ride/hour with an instructor its more than likey the pilot will be talent limited.
And I've notice a strong correlation between bad spelling and aerial inneptitude :}

[FREDAcheck]

So does that mean I should have 2 bars or 3 on my epaulettes flying solo before my flight test?

[BEagle]

....either.

But do make sure you have the recommended:

1. Aviator's watch.
2. Sunglasses of the latest vogue.
3. Headset.

Perhaps the frequent (and tedious) PIC, logbook, watch, sunglasses, headset and epaulette threads could be combined into one?

Or preferably none?

:uhoh:

[mad_jock]

Spendid I find the complete opppersite of course.

In fact your young or old dyslexic engineer is a pleasure to instruct how to fly, although they do have a low threshold for "bollocks" which has no common sense attached on the ground.

They seem to have an inate situational awarness model from the point they have a smidge of spare capacity and understand whats going on on the radio.

Teaching them is just a case of sitting next to them while they work out how the levers and knobs fit into there mental model of how they think an aircraft works. Once that clicks you just have to agree with them everytime they say "i f'd that up can we do it again?"

Easy money :p

And Beagle you have forgotten flying suits and the wearing of the infamous Captains Ring AV Eight (http://www.aveight.aero/productlist/jewellery/rings) interestingly enough they seem to have branched out into nail care as well.

[J.A.F.O.]

Beagle

Could you recommend the ideal kneeboard for me to write down the times on?