What would u like in the cockpit ?

[buster172]

Hello and thank you in advance for reading my post.

I wonder if you can help me, to help you.

At present I am studying a Bsc(Hons) in Industrial Design. My final project in third year, the one I am undertaking in the next few weeks, involves identifying an existing problem and finding a design solution.

As a keen but low hour ppl, I was wondering about cockpit management. Ie, maps, charts, pens paper etc. General organisation outwith proper pre departure planning. I have a knee board but find it far from perfect for keeping everyhting in order !

I would welcome any suggestions for a product or design that may improve the cockpit enviroment, improve safety or enable you to get more from your flying.

There are no bad ideas in my book, so please if you have ever thought " I wish I had that, or I wish it did that " or " wouldnt it be great if..."

Please let me know !

Thanks again for your time.

I do hope some of you have some ideas !

Yours hopefully,

Buster

[FNG]

What I would most like in the cockpit..

if the weather is nice and the engine is running smoothly: Michelle Pfeiffer, dressed as Amy Johnson

if the weather is crap and the engine is blowing up: Squadron Leader James Bigglesworth DSO MC DFC

sorry, knackered and in a facetious mood and so can't think of anything sensible, but good luck with your worthy project.

Edit: OK, trying to be serious, for a type without a clear canopy overhead, some sort of pull down concertina file arrangement to hold stuff? Problem is that types are so variable in layout and space/weight are so limited. Must say that the further I get from doing my PPL, and as a strictly VFR bloke, the less bumf I have with me when flying. Often have nothing more than map, pen and watch these days. Bag stays in car (no, not you Michelle)

[ 28 February 2002: Message edited by: FNG ]</p>

[buster172]

FNG,

Thank you kindly for your post :) may it be the first of many !

I to would like a beautiful woman to hold all my, erm, equipment for me while jollying around the sky too :)

As you rightly pointed out the various cokpit layouts both open and closed, stick or yoke, provide a host of challenging problems.

I think these reasons alone should make it an interesting area to work in.

And of course, I may need to put in a few hours to 'test' the final product :)

Thanks again, your thoughts are duly noted and any others, please let me know any cockpit related problems you think I could work to solve.

Yours

Buster

[tacpot]

If often wished for a fine nibbed pen that writes indelibly on paper, but can be rubbed off a laminated surface. I use a chinagraph on my chart fairly regularly in-flight, and a fine ballpoint on my flight log, and I'm fed up of having to swap between the two.

Any chance you could invent such a pen? It may have a much bigger market outside aviation.

I've also had another idea (along the same lines) that I feel would be more of a "design" problem, and hence fit better with your brief. Send me an e-mail if you are interested in discussing this other idea.

Good luck

[ 28 February 2002: Message edited by: tacpot ]</p>

[Zlin526]

Britney Spears in a skintight flying suit behind me.. .Map.. .Compass.. .An unlimited supply of wonga to pay for the P-51 Mustang I'd be sitting in.

Thats about it really. As you can see, I'm easily pleased..

Being serious...

A chart that folds itself. . .Self cleaning visor for the flying helmet (Why is it that how ever many times you religiously clean the visor before you fly, when the time comes to use it, it always has dirt and grime on it?). .A flying suit with decent kneepads to write on. Then again, a flying suit without all those pockets that i could never, ever find a use for. (What do the RAF guys keep in them?). .A flying suit that fits a normal sized bloke well. . .A good cockpit heater for a Tiger Moth.. .A coating that repels mud and dirt from the wing fabric.. .Everlasting fuel (sorry, couldnt resist that!)

[ 28 February 2002: Message edited by: Zlin526 ]</p>

[Whirlybird]

Buster, I know what I'd really really REALLY like.

I'm 5ft 2ins, and I can rarely see over the nose without a cushion in most f/w aircraft. In some aircraft, and most helicopters, I need a cushion behind me to reach the pedals. So I carry a couple of cushions in the boot of the car, but if I end up suddenly wanting to fly, as I did last week in Florida, I have to improvise - and flying a helicopter with your flight bag behind you is not ideal. So I need an inflatable cushion, which can either be used behind me, or to sit on, or both, and easily packed away for travelling.

And while you're about it, I'd also like a reasonable length ladder that folds to fit in an R22, so I can take it with me to reach the rotors for the A check, if I take a helicopter away overnight.

If you make either of those, I'll buy them instantly.

[I have control]

An in-cockpit entertainment system that included CD & radio piped into my headset, but automatically cut out to allow incoming radio transmissions to be heard.

[Tinstaafl]

How to solve the 'one writing stick for everything' problem:

Don't laminate your charts & use a SOFT-ish pencil eg 2B or similar. Soft enough to write on charts & be erased after use without damaging the chart, marks the whiz wheel easily, writes on flight logs or equivalent etc.

Hard enough so that it lasts for more than 3 mins of use.

As for the original question: Maps & charts that have intermediate or sufficient overlapping coverage to make it easier to transition from one chart to the next AND remove the annoyance of having a waypoint only an inch or two into the next chart.

[ 28 February 2002: Message edited by: Tinstaafl ]</p>

[Fox_4]

One seat, two afterburning engines, loads of MFDs and a helmet mounted sight.. .Or is that the new Beaurofighter?

[The Nr Fairy]

I fond the answer to at least one of my niggles - where to stick my pen / pencil on my kneeboard where it was a) easily accessible and b) didn't stick out when not in use.

Answer : the harder side of Velcro on the kneepad clip, the softer side stuck around the pen/pencil shaft. Bingo. Implement stays stuck, out of the way, and easy to hand.

[Flight Detent]

MMMMM..........."improve cockpit safety, cockpit design, cockpit environment AND get more out of your flying" as well as "making everyday management significantly easier, especially during emergencies"... well, that's VERY easy...install a Flight Engineers station and make as much use of him/her as you can.....problem solved!!!. .Cheers.

[pulse1]

How about a "pause" button like you have on Flight Sims. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Genghis the Engineer]

The pen issue again. If you use a fine, permanent OHP pen (basically a non water soluble felt tip) it will write on both. If you go to a good art shop, you can buy something called a "Staedtler Lumoplast", which is basically a very posh rubber. Then will rub out permanent felt tip from your laminated map. Problem solved.

Regarding cockpit ergonomics.

(1) Ergonomics that suit a wide range of pilots, from 5th percentile oriental female (now there's a thought), to 95th percentile Caucasian Male (which should keep Whirly happy as well). There are ergonomic tables for these, published by NASA, but they are rarely taken into account by light aircraft designers.

(2) See if you can get hold of a book called "Design for Flight Safety", by DB Thurston, ISBN 0-02-618501-6, and another called "The book of flight tests", by A Bramson, ISBN 1-85605-000-9. Both may be out of print, so inter-library loans is probably your best bet.

(3) If you can design a reasonably accurate and reliable fuel level gauge for light aircraft, you will earn the undying gratitude of millions.

(4) A CWP.

G

[Who has control?]

re Genghis' eraser - if you have a 'Staedtler Lumoplast' be very careful where you store it as the solvents in the eraser will disolve plastics.

I have one in my desk drawer, it has already melted a patch in it so now it sits on a paperclip clear of the plastic. The cardboard sleeve around the eraser is not for decoration.

[dublinpilot]

How about a heater that works!! (I understand this is more difficult than in cars, due to the fact the airplanes are air cooled).

A radio that can replay the last 10 seconds of a transmittion (for those missed clearances).

And a glove box!! When you travel in your car, which stay's pretty level, you need to store things that you don't currently need, but don't want to fall around. However in the plane, which spends lots of time inclined, you have nowhere to put bit and pieces!!!

[Tricky Woo]

Cup-holder and vanity mirror.

TW

[FlyingForFun]

Wow, great thread, Buster172!

FNG, you can have Michelle Pfeiffer if I can have Anna Kournikova. (PS - I will reply to the mail you sent me back in Jan some time!)

Zlin - chart that folds itself is a nice idea, but much easier to fold before you fly. But my major complaint about US sectional charts while flying out there is they are double-sided - which means having to completely re-fold in-flight if you're going across the half-way point! Was a pain in a PA28, extremely difficult in a Super Cub, and I'd hate to think what it would be like in an open-cockpit plane - I think I'd be buying two charts! But apart from that, and the fact that they're not laminated (personal preference, I know Tinstaafl prefers un-laminated charts but I don't!) US charts are mostly better than ours. I particularly the fact that runway layouts are shown on the chart, which makes identifying airports for navigation purposes easy, and also helps plan an arrival. We could learn a lot from that.

Pulse - when I took my Uncle flying, my cousin warned me that he'd been practicing on Flight Sim, and that I shouldn't let him fly the plane because he's always using the pause/reset buttons on Flight Sim!

Dublinpilot - if you fly in balance, it shouldn't matter whether you're banked or not, things won't slide around! :)

And my own addition: PA28s (well, most of them) have nice pockets next to the pilot to store charts, etc. in during flight. PA18s have similar pockets, except the pocket on the PA18 is metal. I'm pretty sure that this accounts for my charts becoming damaged very easilly since I started flying the PA18 - my UK (laminated) chart has a big hole in it right on a fold that often catches on the pocket, and my US (unlaminated) chart managed to last less than a month before being completely destroyed! Let's keep pockets made out of vinyl or something similar that's not going to tear the things we put in the pockets!

FFF. .---------

[Who has control?]

Think of what is in your car, & put it in a plane.

For example. A decent lock, including immobiliser, in the door. The average aircraft door can be opened, without damage, with a screwdriver.

Seats with adjustments for rake angle, squab angle, height, distance and cloth covers. You can't beat PVC seats for discomfort after a couple of hours in the sun.

Inertia reel seat belts.. . Tinted windscreens.. . A real handbrake the position of which clearly indicates on or off. (Cessna drivers will be nodding their heads in agreement here, I'm sure).. . More stowage space.

[gasax]

A moving map display that was legal to use as a map and save all that folding!

Electronic flight and engine instruments - all in the same gadget?

Fuel gauges that actually show how much fuel is in the plane.

Seats that adjust to fit me, rather than bend my bones to fit them.

[DOC.400]

Panel ergonomics.

Air conditioning.

DOC

[Monocock]

I feel that many of the modern designs in light a/c do incorporate many of the things I am reading about in this thread ie. inertia reel belts, cd players, air con. etc. etc.

How many of you out there use a Palm computer? (or PDA as some call them)

Those who do will know how wonderful they are, those that don't soon will. The amount of software available on these computers is frightening (just go to <a href="http://www.palm.com" target="_blank">www.palm.com</a> and look at the aviation section to find out).

What I am getting to is that there must be a way of integrating these very easy to use devices into all kinds of a/c.

Picture the scene.......sitting at home on a Friday night you decide to visit mate X in town X the following day. You consult the following; weather (by phone or internet), Pooleys, chart, GPS, a/c performance book etc etc. Then when you finally get in the plane the following day you are multi-tasking from start to finish. Radio freq., nav aid freq., GPS set and ready to go, another weather check, en route navigation etc etc.

What I would like is this.................................

Turn on the Palm, point on the map where I want to go, from where, from what runway, at what time, file the flight plan and then go to bed.

The computer plugs into the a/c the next morning and becomes your en route weather mate, radio frequency mate, nav aid frequency mate, a/c runway performance mate (cos it knows which runway you are on with its inbuilt GPS) navigation mate, CD player disc and volume control mate, air con. temperature mate, and general all round mate.

Is that too much to ask for?

And while it's doing all that for you there is more time to fiddle with Britney!

[ 01 March 2002: Message edited by: Monocock ]</p>

[buster172]

Can I just say a big thank you, FNG, Tacpot, Zlin526, Whirlybird, I have control, TinstaafI, Fox 4, The NR fairy, Flight Detent, Pulse1, Genghis the engineer, Who has control, Dublin pilot, Tricky woo, FFF, Pete Morris, Doc.400 and Monocock. Some great ideas !. .. .I think that all the ideas suggested would have a beneficial aspect, some more than others <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> to the 'cockpit enviroment' however I cant actually change anything in the existing cockpit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .. .Many of the ideas, like improving seating, restraints, audio systems, and security would undoubtably improve the aircraft.. .. .My apologies if I didnt explain this properly earlier. I need to bring something new into the cokpit to help organise and manage your work flow or improve your flying experience in some way.. .. .From what u tell me, perhaps a system, maybe an improved flying suit that adapts to the user, a way of presenting all the relevent informaiton at one time ? but not a little black box with batteries !. .. .A way to improve comfort ? field of vision with out altering the exisitng design ? Whirlybird does need to be able to see where shes going ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Perhaps a new think on the kneeboard, a way to organise charts etc etc and be incorparted into an additonal suit that has some of your thoughts incorparated.. .. .I do not wear a flying suit in the 172 I fly. However I would be interested to know what you think about flying with/without a suit and do you think there are benefits/negative aspects of wearing one out with vintage/warbirds/jets etc . .. .Ideally the 'product' will not contain technology, be affordable, and accesable to the majority of flyers. So I can have one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Thank you all very much for making the effort to reply to my post and answer my questions !!. .. .I hope that you will help me again to think about this just a little bit more.. .. .For me, to get this qaulity of research and insight is priceless and I cant thank you enough.. .. .I hope to hear some more thoughts on what are your ideas,. .. .Thanks again,. .. .Buster

[FNG]

With regard to flying suits etc, on one view we should all wear nomex suits, helmets and gloves whenever we fly, but we don't and never will. People (me included) still ski over steep and rocky terrain at 30-40 mph without wearing helmets (although helmets have recently started to appear on recreational skiers and boarders), and until fairly recently it was normal to ride a horse across country without a hard hat on. . .. .It would be difficult not to feel a plonker climbing out of the average GA aircraft wearing a flying suit. The older the aircraft, the more smelly and oily it tends to be, and the more difficult to get into and out of, so in classics and warbirds a flight suit makes sense as well as looking the part and, most importantly, providing some defence against fire and (if you remember to zip up the 97 pockets) lose foreign objects. . .. .It perhaps wouldn't be a bad idea for flying clubs to display information about the fire retardant properties (read: lack of) of the clothes than many people customarily wear to go flying in.. .. .Good luck with your project.

[John Farley]

Buster172. .. .The problem you have selected is a very real one, and in my view well worth tackling as a formal project. .. .Some thoughts:. .. .In defining the existing problem do not assume aviation knowledge on the part of the reader. You would need to expand considerably on some of the following points. .. .Pilots need to take various bits of pre-prepared paper and implements (from glasses and sun glasses to stop watches and writing tools) into the cockpit.. .. .Because of the risks posed by lose articles they need everything to be easy to stow and easy to unstow (as well as being appropriate for purpose when in use). .. .Stowage provisions vary greatly between types. .. .Pilot needs vary with experience and type of flight. .. .Often a clear definition and appreciation of the problem can lead one to suggest solutions.. .. .How about discussing personal stowage? The flying suit may be seen by many as a posing accessory, but in fact can be of great assistance if tailored to specific stowage needs rather than (just) looking sharp.. .. .If a flying suit is not worn, then you could consider pockets/pouches applied to upper arms and thighs as Velcro wrap arounds etc. (discarded before you emerge to have your photo taken after another amazing feat of aviation...). .. .Good luck with your exercise

[FlyingForFun]

I never really thought there was much point in wearing a flying suit, unless you're in an open-cockpit plane. Once you're talking about open-cockpit, any bits of paper, etc, you take with you are liable to blow away! Which is why open-cockpit guys where flying suits - so that they can write details of their route, flight logs, etc, onto the panels on their thighs - the same way that most of us use a kneeboard. And of course the 1/2-million pockets are useful too.... .. .(The same applies to aerobatic flights - no place for lose bits of paper there either. But generally there's no need for lose bits of paper, because aerobatic flights are usually local and don't need a written plan or log. I've done aerobatics - both open-cockpit and with a canopy, without a flight suit.). .. .Fire-retardent qualities and so on are nice, but I don't think that's the reason people where flight suits. (Of course, having never worn one myself, I can't say for sure!). .. .If you like the idea of developing a flight suit further, probably the best thing to do is to speak to people who already use them to find out what improvements they'd like - I'm not sure that there's much of a market to get more people to start using them.. .. .Good luck, and have fun (but it sounds like you already are!). .. .FFF. .---------

[buster172]

FNG, John Farley and FFF thank you for your input.. .. .After looking at all the issues that have been raised and discussing the issues with my course leader. I am going to develop a 'product' to ensure all the required articles are within easy reach and accesable within a range of cockpit enviroments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Something along those lines. It may be a development of the kneeboard, an integral part of a flying suit or something completely new.. .. .I would just like to say thank you once again to all those who posted, my course leader was very immpressed with my resaerch methods, and of course thats thanks to you !. .. .If anyone was interested I could post details of my final design when I complete it ? It would be great for me to hear your veiws on the final concept.. .. .Thanks again,. .. .Buster. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[FlyingForFun]

I'd definitely be interested in hearing about your developments, Buster!. .. .Why did my studying never include anything this interesting?. .. .FFF. .-------

[Who has control?]

Buster, . . If you can design a decent kneeboard, you'd get my vote.. .. . My kneeboard is like a book, (I'm sure you have seen them in Transair etc), it straps to my right thigh, with the clip at the top and opens up onto my left thigh. At least, thats the theory.. .. . I'm left handed, so my left hand holds the yoke, presses the PTT and writes. My right hand operates the throttle and trim. It is difficult to write with my left hand on my right thigh.. .. . I have my kneeboard upside down on my left thigh. The clip, which is now at the bottom, holds my checklist by gripping the last page. This means I can use the checklist in flight as it is flip-over format. I don't bother with opening the kneeboard in flight. But all the text printed on the knee-board is up side down and the handy holes for the stopwatch are at the bottom too.. .. . So Buster, if you could design a kneeboard to suit either leg, with clips top or bottom, plus pen and watch-holders, it might be greeted with approval!

[FlyingForFun]

Good point, Who Has Control!. .. .As another lefty, I personally don't have a problem with clipping my knee-board to my right knee. But I like to tilt the paper about 60 degrees to the right when I write on it (to stop my left hand from running over the fresh ink and smudging it: a trick which my school-teacher taught me when I was 10 years old - she was also a lefty, and was into calligraphy). I can't do that with any kneeboard I've found, but I write at an angle anyway, which means my writing slopes down the page. I keep meaning to re-design my flight log form to have sloping lines on it to compensate, but a swiveling kneeboard would be even better!. .. .FFF. .---------

[Who has control?]

Theres your project Buster - a DIY kneeboard kit.. .. .Provide a kneeboard with holes at each corner for a stopwatch, slots in the centre for the straps, two holes top & bottom for a clip and a hole along each edge for penholders. Supply the clip, penholders, strap and fixings and let the customer assemble it to suit themselves.

[Dusty_B]

I have a right-handed book-type knee board, which for me is just as useless as it is for a lefty.... .Why? Because my kites of choice have sticks and not yokes. Therefore, I can't open the folder without fouling the controls.. .(I hate yokes - why were they invented? Horrid american things). .. .As for flying suits, that is what I miss most in my GA flying! Definately the most useful thing I had in my UAS days.. .. .For those that don't know what we do with all the pockets... . .Well, there are many. 2 zipped chest pockets, 2 normal 'trouser' pockets, to knee boards, each with 2 pockets (one accessable from the top - or not, if you are sitting down - the other from the base), and 2 ankle pockets. Oh, and the pen pouch on your sleave, and the vital 'sunglasses' ring... (actually for connecting O2 masks etc to).. .. .Bottom up then, (my personnal preference):. .Left Ankle Pocket: Gloves, En-Route Supplement, first aid kit. . .Right Ankle Pocket: Aircrew Pocket Book (holds lose leaf 'pooleys'/jepsen type charts), Minor Aerodromes.. .Left knee board: Local area map (1:1mil).. .Left knee lower pocket: Sick Bag. .Left knee upper pocket: Lucky Sick Bag (I never needed it, must be lucky). .Right knee board: 'Note Pad'. Ready marked with aeras for wind/info code/runway/QFE/Regional/TL.. .Right knee lower pocket: Map. Larger copy of 1:1mil local area map.. .Right knee upper: Empty.. .'Trouser' Pockets: Empty. OK, probably full of washed tissues.... .Left Chest pocket: Teaspoon. Vital accessory for any crewroom... Ten-pound note... vital for any landaway cafe. Perminant markers (black, red, blue).. .Right Chest pocket: Spare badges (name badges vary with occation and location). Note paper, biro, half pencil.. .. .So, everything placed exactly where you need it for each stage of you flight, from pre-flight planning, to debrief coffee.... .. .Phew. Oh yeah, it weighed a tonne. But it didn't 'alf keep your legs strong with all the weight arround the ankles!!!

[Throtlemonkey]

Good Trick for maps is iron the mongrel things flat then refold them consetina style from top to botom. . .. .Adjustable ruder pedals would be nice as I'm 6'3 (oposite problems to Wirly) shins hit the dash in all cessna single's, I would no doubt lose both knee caps if I ever had a bad prang in one. would also like a cup holder and an arm rest on both sides (you can build controls into the arm rest as they do on the latest model john deere tractors). Better noise reduction would also be a bonus even the new Cessna and Piper are noisy on long flights.