Fire extinguishers in permit aircraft

[737]

Hi folks

I'm looking for the current regulations for the carriage of a fire extinguisher in a uk registered permit aircraft. Are there exemptions for open cockpit, microlights or gyroplanes?

Many thanks
737

[FlyingStone]

Why would anyone deliberately want to equip an aircraft without fire extinguisher? :confused:

[411A]

In my opinion, you do not want an expemption...you need a Halon extinguisher.
Better safe than sorry.
A fire extinguisher...the first item on the shopping list for a pilot with a (new to them) airplane, make NO mistake.

I have personally seen the results for a pilot where a fire extinguisher was not readily available...and the sight was not a pretty one.:eek:

[Rod1]

I have seen several accidents in aerobatic aircraft involving the extinguisher becoming a missile. It is quite normal to fly aerobatic permit aircraft without extinguishers.

Rod1

[Jan Olieslagers]

For as little as I know about the subject, extinguishers are only of use if aimed at the base of the fire. This would normally be at the business side of the firewall, and thus not accessible from the cockpit i.e. by the crew.

Also I remember from my own crash - 2-stroke engine quit on take-off, instructor got the ship down but ran out of airspeed some 10-20 feet up, plane dumped vertically, broke the nose wheel and tumbled her tail over - both occupants were hanging upside-down from their belts, and must have been stunned for a good while before looking in each other's glazy faces. Cannot imagine when an extinguisher would have been any good, we were either stunned, or just hanging there, or working our way out (which took some doing from the inverted position, well aware of the fire risk), or RUNNING.

Can anyone describe a practical case where a carried extinguisher was of any use? I can't imagine any. The disadvantages are obvious, though: ballistics, as already pointed out, and the sheer weight. Not that much of an issue in a C152 or anything heavier, perhaps; but a real concern in a 450 kg gross ultralight.

[FlyingStone]

The disadvantages are obvious, though: ballistics, as already pointed out, and the sheer weight. Not that much of an issue in a C152 or anything heavier, perhaps; but a real concern in a 450 kg gross ultralight.

As someone already stated in some other topic with S-mode transponders in gliders: the extra pound of any equipment is ALWAYS a problem with gliders and ultralights, but nobody seems to lose some pounds of their own weight intentionally just to increase aircraft performance :confused:

My opinion: the fire extinguisher is probably the most important part of emergency equipment in an aircraft, next to serviceable VHF radio. ELTs with today's radio coverage are baseless, especially if flying in normally-populated countryside and they won't do you much good unless you are either commited to forced landing or already crashed. Especially in microlights, where the electrical equipment doesn't need to be TSO, I'd say there is larger risk of electrical fire - and what will you do if you have a small electrical fire and you've smartly decided to fly without fire extinguisher on board? Watch it to spread while continuing to an airfield 30 NM away?

[austerwobbler]

On a lonely deserted farm strip when you have over primed your pride and joy and it ignites the fuel on the air filter or fuel on the floor and the hanger door's look so you cant get the fire extinguisher out :ok:

Austerwobbler

[Mark 1]

To answer your question. There is no ANO requirement to carry an extinguisher on a private flight (Sch4, A(5) only applies with a CofA) and the LAA do not impose any requirement for their carriage.
I got a nice 1211 halon 20oz one at Oshkosh for $90. Unfortunately, there isn't a practical economical way of bringing them back to the UK.

[Gyroflyer]

Reading Schedule 4, I don't see where it states that the regs apply to CofA aircraft only or specifically exempts permit aircraft.

Am I missing something?

[IO540]

The time one might use an extinguisher is for an in-flight electrical/avionics fire. One could not put out an engine fire from inside the cockpit (obviously) - this is why you have the firewall, so you can do a landing before the fire propagates into the cockpit.

Another use might be to put out an engine fire starting on the ground, perhaps (though I think most people would just get out and leg it :) ).

Hard to believe today that some people smoke in an aircraft, isn't it? But they always have done - my plane has several ashtrays, so there's another clear requirement for an extinguisher.

[Mark 1]

Sc.4 - 2 a) Aeroplanes (not PT), viii) - Categories A(3) and A(5) apply to aeroplanes with a CofA

[stiknruda]

Had one in my permit Cub. Have never had any in the Pitts' that I've owned. Have a large one in the hangar door - just in case!

[Jan Olieslagers]

Hard to believe today that some people smoke in an aircraft, isn't it?

Off-topic, perhaps, but I can't help remembering the days when I drove a truck distributing LPG to remote places like holiday bungalows or amateur football canteens or whatever. One Friday afternoon all jobs were done early and we stood discussing politics and football and whatever nonsense when the subject of safety came up - a natural concern in that business. The boss took us to a big LPG tank, opened up a drain - PSSSSHHHHHH - then threw his burning cigarette into the cloud. I am happily around to report and so are all the others.

We surely should not invite danger - but neither should it be exaggerated. I didn't like the old boss, but he did know how to assess and to manage risk. And his stupid staff.

[A and C]

Can one of you please tell me when the last time a fire extinguisher was used in flight in a light aircraft ?

The numbers would be interesting.

[IO540]

I doubt you will get many offers on that one.

In flight fuel leak fires... that's something else but I think they tend to be fatal.

Actually my main concern is a LIPO battery in some portable device, say a camera, catching fire This has happened, but I don't think an extinguisher would be much good. I would slow down in level flight, throttle closed, on autopilot, and just before reaching Vs would open the door just enough and chuck the thing out. That's the plan, anyway :)

[737]

Many thanks for all the replies

737

[hegemon88]

I thought I'd resurrect this thread - to ask a few questions about a fire extinguisher in the EASA aircraft. My engineer tells me that if the aircraft is used privately, there is no requirement for a fire extinguisher. Does it mean that if I want to carry one, I don't have to choose it from aviation shops and can get a remarkably cheaper one, e.g. a model sold for cars? Or does common sense (and knowledge I don't possess) still dictate it has to be a halon one and generally speaking one of those sold by specialist aviation retailers?



/h88

[foxmoth]

Actually my main concern is a LIPO battery in some portable device

Something the airlines are training for these days - extinguisher is a waste of time, needs dowsing with water (lemonade/coke etc works as well) some interesting videos out showing a laptop on fire, extinguished with water and then covered in ice - after a few minutes the battery reignites, what you have to do once extinguished is keep it immersed in water until all the heat has gone.

[thing]

still dictate it has to be a halon one I've always wondered about that. Back in my mob days when we used to do the annual fire training we were always told not to use halon in a confined space as it's not very friendly to humans. Good fire extinguisher though.

Re how useful are they-pretty useful in an electrical fire I would say. Of course I would hold my breath...

[ChickenHouse]

You want Halon extinguisher by simple reasons - it is very effective, which you need as in flight it aint easy to drive to the curbside and - it is non-destructable to the fuselage. If you ever use a standard household or car extinguisher in the vicinity of a plane, it is waste afterwards as the chemicals will eat all electronics and metal.

[9 lives]

It is a good idea to have a fire extinguisher in reach of the pilot's seated position in any aircraft. You may arrive to earth badly, and there may be a fire. Even a small fire is a hazard if you cannot get yourself out, and you cannot get the fire out. Even a small extinguisher might buy you the time you need to escape.

My friend landed a C206 floatplane with a small engine fire. It was a maintenance test flight, no fire extinguisher yet. It burned, and was a write off - prompt use of an extinguisher once on the water might have saved it. a few years later, his boss, also my friend, was a crash victim. A very small post crash fire went unextinguished for too long - he did not survive, partly because of the fire.

Carry a fire extinguisher, and as with anything in the cabin, assure it is secured against crash forces.

[RatherBeFlying]

In a glider the majority of the electrikery is directly above the pilot's knees.

The master switch should hopefully remove any energy from anything smouldering.

LiFePO batteries so far are not known to misbehave.

Even Halon is toxic after suppressing a fire (to say nothing of combustion products); so you do need prompt ventilation after using Halon in an enclosed space.

What scares me are gliders without either master switches or fuses for individual instruments. If there's smoke that can't be controlled by switching off the compromised box, the next recourse is the chute.

In my glider, even the gear warning has its own fuse.

All that said, the only glider I know lost to an electrical problem was in a trailer with a loose battery bouncing around and shorting.

[xrayalpha]

Don't worry about an extinguisher - CARRY A SHARP KNIFE.

I well remember being trapped in a car for 30/40 mins (it was remote area) until the fire brigade arrived. The two front seat had shunted together so you couldn't access the release.

Have also seen someone suffocate when trapped upside down in their harness. (A bit like the way crucifiction works, after they break your legs).

The main reason we don't now need a fire crew at airfields used for ab initio training in the UK is that these crews have failed to save anyone for 60-odd years. Basically, you get out, or you are dead by the time they take you out.

Get a knife and be one of the ones who get out.

And always brief your passengers about where the knife is too.