To file a VFR flight plan or not

[Dr_Tre]

I'm planning a big fat VFR flight from North Yorkshire to Down South and theres tonnes of class D in the way of the most efficient route (i.e a straight line!).

I was wondering, all things being equal,would I be more likely to get an en-route Class D zone transit if I file a flight plan addressed to all the relevant 'owners' of said airspace?

Does anyone have any experience of this?

Obviously its traffic dependent and i will need to have contingency plans should i not get clearance etc. etc.

[Fuji Abound]

Dr Tre

This was done to death recently so you might want to use the search function to review the earlier thread.

Anyway I think it is fair to say the concensus (and certianly my view) was that you are completely wasting your time filing. For a VFR FP, or even an IFR FP outside CAS, it is doubtful whether the plan is promulgated to en route class D providers, and even if the FP is specifically referenced so that it is, the providers are not in the least bit interested in giving you any priority in consequence.

Any class D controller will consider his commercial traffic load at the time you ask for a transit and the professionalism of your request. If he can fit you in with his CAT and you sound like you arent a trouble maker you will get the transit.

That is true at any rate of most class D. There are some areas of class D where you probably should assume you will not get the transit - which include for example London Stansted, Gatwick, Heathrow (class A SVFR), and Manchester.

(you dont say from where to where, but if you do, I suspect more than a few of us on here have been that way before and can give you the heads up on the best route and what you might expect.)

[BHenderson]

Tried the same today (EGNT-EGBW). Even though it was addressed to all the relevant agencies (Leeds, Sheffield, East Mids, Birmingham), airspace concessions were traffic dependent. It's probably easier for both controller and pilot to remain outside the class D - the detours aren't that massive. There's also quite a few gaps in the airspace if you look closely.

[niknak]

To get the attention of all the units en route you'd have to make sure that you put the all AFTN addressees of the units individually in the address part of the flight plan.
If you send the flight plan via your home ATC unit and don't do the above, all they'll do is use a collective computer addressee and the destination airfield address.
The collective address sends details of your flight to the area FIS units you'll be transitting, but not necessarially airfields.
At our place, if we recieve such a flight plan the computer will generate a flight strip with all the details on it. Most airfields with class D airspace will have this facility, but whether all of them utilise like we do I know not.


Hope that helps.

[IO540]

At our place, if we recieve such a flight plan the computer will generate a flight strip with all the details on it. Most airfields with class D airspace will have this facility, but whether all of them utilise like we do I know not.

Apparently, most if not all Class D units bin such a flight plan. No landing = no interest to them.

[Dr_Tre]

Thanks for posting folks :ok: (especially as this has been done recently - apologies for that)

I'm getting the impression that its a waste of time filing a flight plan!

If anyone does have any tips on how to successfully negotiate:

Doncaster North - South
EMA the eastern edge of
LTN (can one depend on a corridor crossing?)

I would be very grateful


My destination is Elstree as Its close to London (but is it the closest/ best? - hang on a minute that's been done to death too! :})


Cheers

[Helen49]

One thing a flight plan does guarantee is that if you fail to arrive at your planned destination, your absence will be noted and appropriate search actions initiated. No flight plan and nobody will miss you.

Whilst Airport Management may only be interested in aircraft which intend to 'land', ATC personnel are generally interested in knowing about any aircraft which may be operating in their vicinity. When traffic levels permit, most ATC Units will be happy to accommodate transit traffic.

Helen

[7of9]

I fly out of Sandtoft so can help with the Doncaster bit, Call them up on 126.225 about 15 mins or so before you are due to want to enter their class D airspace & request a "Zone Transit" After their reply, pass on your details requesting a zone transit & they will give you a Squawk & talk to you till you are clear. They usually approve & will give you a height so as not to interfere with any of their traffic.

I would assume this would be the same for any other "transits" but willing to be corrected.

Hope this helps.

Trev

[englishal]

it is doubtful whether the plan is promulgated to en route class D providers
It is if you address it to them on AFPEx ;)

I don't know the answer to this one, only to say that last time I was flying along talking to London Info, I was handed to Solent and the first question solent asked me was "how do you want to transit". I had addressed Southampton in the FP.

Try it and see and report back to us :ok:

[IO540]

One thing a flight plan does guarantee is that if you fail to arrive at your planned destination, your absence will be noted and appropriate search actions initiated

In the UK, as a default action?

[Fuji Abound]

Englishal

Now come on Englishal not like you to give only part of the quote :) which is why I said

and even if the FP is specifically referenced so that it is

but I agree there are occasions they may be ready for your transit. However I still suspect that VFR transits will always be of less priority than dealing with their current traffic loads and priority.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Looking on from a distance, and not having seen the earlier unreferenced thread, I am quite surprised by the general tone of the replies. As I learned, one files a flightplan not in order to get any different treatment from controllers, but simply because it is mandatory. That is to say, it is mandatory for every flight that intends either passing through some part, however small, of controlled airspace, or crossing a national border.
Helen49's reply comes closest to what I learned, with one proviso: search actions will start when you fail to turn up at your destination a/d BUT ALSO IF YOUR FLIGHT PLAN ISN'T CLOSED. At controlled a/d's this is normally done by the controller, but if you land at a non-controlled field you must remember to call the relevant authority to close the flight plan.

[Fuji Abound]

but simply because it is mandatory.


Yes it is (mandatory), but then you are confusing a pre-flight FP with an airborne FP. When you request a class D transit the request constitutes the FP. Strictly a pre-flight FP is not even required for IFR in class A, but in reality the UK never accept a pop up request, unlike, for example in the States.

The last thing we want is pre-flight FPs to become mandatory. The recent actions of some scottish airports have been described by some as a slippery slope.

A FP does have the advantage that your failure to pitch up should intitiate s&r. However, I have come back form Europe on more than a few occasions (and arrived there) to be told they dont have my FP. Bimbling around the UK it is often the case that you are never out of radio contact with someone (if you elect to take advantages of the services on offer).

All other issues aside, yes you must of course file a preflight FP for any flight abroad. (well excluding Wales, Scotland etc. :))

[Jan Olieslagers]

Thanks for the prompt reply, FA. I was aware of the "pop-up" flight plan, but as I understand it is not really a different document, but rather the same information filed in a different way. I have indeed known both Brussels Information and Antwerp tower to file flight plans routinely, after getting all required details over the radio - a heavy charge on channel occupation.

I do remember even international flight plans to be submitted this way.

But a flight-plan filed while flying, through ATC, still needs to be closed after the flight, doesn't it?

[IO540]

Not in the UK.

[Fuji Abound]

Jan

Two different beasts. A pop up flight plan will contain the same mandatory information as a pre-flight paper plan. For example, you will sometimes hear people returning from Europe and London info informing they cant find a FP. The pilot may then be asked to file an airborne plan. I agree this is time consuming and should be avoided if possible.

An airborne FP for class D transit is entirely different. The exchnage might go something like this:

G-XXXX requesting tansit,

G-XXXX pass your details,

G-XXXX requesting transit from X to Y at FL35

G-XXXX is cleared to enter controlled airspace at X, routing direct Y at FL35, squawk 5656.

You may of course be asked for your life history and many seem to offer this up anyway. :)

Anyway that is the airborne element of the FP, takes seconds, and even if you had pre-filed you end up giving much the same information.

Some would say if pre-filed FPs ever became mandatory for class D transits it would be a disaster and the recent actions of one or two Scottish airports has been described as a slippery slope (by me maybe :))

Why? Well some of us value the freedom to go where and when we like. If VFR I will often change my plans en route. The other day it seemed a pleasant idea as Gatwick wasnt busy to request a transit and a route over their threshold - which was happily granted.

Everything in life doesnt need to be controlled and IMHO shouldnt be. It is our airspace after all even if we have to pay to breathe the air it contains.

and to clarrify the earlier post a FP of the type I first described still needs to be closed on arrival, whereas a FP filed in flight as a class D transit request is closed by the class D unit when you leave class D and the closure will take the following form:

G-XXXX is now leaving controlled airspace, squawk 7000, and en route frequency.

G-XXXX thanks for the transit, squawk 7000 and en route.

Simples really.

(For brevity I have not included details of the service that will be provided in CAS etc which will be stated).

Oh and there is one little twist to this tale that might be worth mentioning. Occasionally two areas of class D airspace will join. Now you would have thought one would pass the transit details of a flight to the other as the flight isnt ever leaving class D. That doesnt necessarily always seem to happen so it is worth confirming with the first unit whether a handover will be given. For example G-XXXX will shortly be leaving your airspace, can you arrange a handover to Y. G-XXXX, Y has your details, retain your squawk, and say your call sign. G-XXXX, Y on handover, squawking 4545. G-XXXX, Y has your details, you are cleared to enter controlled airspace on your current heading at FL 35. You should not enter the new area of class D without a clearance, so somewhere in the exchange you should have been cleared to enter, or request the clearance, just dont assume that it has been given.

[Discorde]

A bit off-thread, but an interesting (I hope) tale. Doing a UK to Orlando many years ago, it became apparent we weren't going to land with a legal amount of fuel, so plan B was invoked – tech stop at Charleston. Ample time to set everything up before landing in CHS, so we were taxying out again 30 mins after arrival. On requesting our clearance we were mortified to be told 'we don't have a flight plan for you, sir'. Oh no! Thinking of the European-style hassle that would probably come our way – return to stand, file a plan, wait for a slot &c we cursed our dispatcher for not filing the onward plan and ourselves for not reminding him.

So in a pleading voice we said 'we just want to go IFR to Orlando McCoy'.

Reply: 'Stand by'.

We continued taxying slowly, fingers crossed. Within a couple of minutes:

'You're cleared to McCoy routing . . . '

There are some things Americans are not so good at, but you can't fault them for practical aviation procedures.

[Katamarino]

Last week I flew our club DA40 from Rotterdam to Southern Tunisia and back. We had VFR flight plans for all legs, and without exception, the ATC service from Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, France, Italy, and Tunisia was light-years ahead of anything provided in the UK.

Sad, really...

[Jan Olieslagers]

FA, many thanks for the elaborate example. Excuse me for being slow in the uptake - but should I understand from your example that class D is something special?
On a more general note, would the procedure you illustrated be specific to the UK or does it confirm to ICAO standard procedures?
The more I hang around here, the more I realise we are very far away from a unified European airspace...

[CJ Driver]

Jan,

No, Class D is not special, although it is the controlled airspace most likely to be crossed by VFR cross-country pilots. The same applies for being cleared into any controlled airspace - technically you were required to file a flight plan, but that can often be achieved by passing your details at which point ATC "opens" a flight plan and then "closes" it when you leave their piece of sky.

[ShyTorque]

I'm getting the impression that its a waste of time filing a flight plan!

If anyone does have any tips on how to successfully negotiate:

Doncaster North - South
EMA the eastern edge of
LTN (can one depend on a corridor crossing?)

Firstly, I never file a formal written flightplan for a VFR flight in UK; it is of very little use; there are better, more certain ways of being "looked out for". Nominate a responsible person who knows your intentions and timings and ensure you communicate with them on landing.

EGCN's airspace crossing, already covered; however, to request 15 minutes in advance is a bit OTT, in my book.

EMA? Either route via the Long Eaton Lane (Long Eaton to Shepshed via the M1, normally given at 1500 feet) or avoid the airspace to the east. Caution: Langar (Parachuting), Syerston (gliders) and Nottingham/Tollerton are usually operating.

LTN? Probably your best plan for destination Elstree International (Time Warp City) is to go round to the west of the zone, under the CTA (i.e. below 2400 feet). They willl sometimes accept a crossing but you may be asked to route to ground features and hold; not easy if you aren't familiar with them and / or quite sharp on your spot navigation. Use Farnborough North (132.8) for a Basic or Traffic service when routing around. They possibly won't hear you until somewhere around Milton Keynes.

[Dr_Tre]

Thanks everyone for you input especially 7 of 9 and shytorque- some great tips which I fully intend to utilise. :ok:

I think i'll file a flight plan one way and try zone crossings and not file for the return and see what happens!

I realise that the traffic load will affect the 'results' but 'ill report back when the experiment is complete.

[LEGAL TENDER]

We had VFR flight plans for all legs, and without exception, the ATC service from Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, France, Italy, and Tunisia was light-years ahead of anything provided in the UK.

I don't know about the other countries you mentioned, but I know that in Italy there is controlled airspace just about anywhere from 2000' AGL up.
I could see that going down well in the UK with the GA community!

[10W]

We had VFR flight plans for all legs, and without exception, the ATC service from Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, France, Italy, and Tunisia was light-years ahead of anything provided in the UK.

In what way ?

[Katamarino]

Well, they pretty much all knew we were coming from our flight plan or the previous ATC service and had our details, gave us a squawk and followed us on radar, handed us over to our next frequency, arranged clearance through some of the airspace we needed, called out traffic...everything that you'd expect really from a modern ATC service. All I've ever received in the UK is London Info - which I found a big waste of time.

I don't particularly care about the lack of ATC for VFR GA in the UK, as I am perfectly happy without it; but it did seem that these countries had rather more capability.

[LEGAL TENDER]

Well, they pretty much all knew we were coming from our flight plan or the previous ATC service and had our details, gave us a squawk and followed us on radar, handed us over to our next frequency, arranged clearance through some of the airspace we needed, called out traffic...everything that you'd expect really from a modern ATC service. All I've ever received in the UK is London Info - which I found a big waste of time.

Did you get all of the above outside or inside controlled airspace? You mention "arranged clearance" so I am guessing inside CAS.
London Info doesn't work controlled airspace.

[Katamarino]

Mostly outside; and, for some of the controlled airspace we wanted to pass, they coordinated for us. As I say, just my impression from a 30 hour jolly...

[tmmorris]

I'm interested by this as I'm planning a flight from Benson to Carlisle in October and wondering if it can be done at all IFR OCAS (as I'm only IMC rated). If not and it has to be VFR then it greatly reduces the chances of making the trip at that time of year and I really don't want to drive all that way.

There seem to be a number of problems...

1. routing - thinking of DTY - TNT (probably with a dogleg to avoid some of East Midlands though they've been fine for transit before) - POL - direct. Alternative would be DTY - GAM - POL - dct, or even SWB - west over the sea (barmy to spend so much time over water unnecessarily, though).

2. VOR coverage. I'll have GPS as backup but don't have BRNAV GPS so I need to calculate whether I will pick up TLA before I lose POL, for example (need to get the books out as I've not done that sort of calculation since the IMCR!). There's a lot of flight over the Lakes.

3. clearances - not had any problems with getting class D clearances VFR before but for example, what are the chances of getting a clearance IFR TNT - POL at MSA of 3400ft? It's through the corner of the Manchester class D CTR which tops out at 3500 (where there is class A).

4. alternate will probably have to be Newcastle - where I gather the landing/handling is a bit painful...

5. flight plan - probably WILL file this due to the amount of time spent over inhospitable terrain.

Anyone done this IFR OCAS? It's making me think wistfully of getting an IR...

Tim

(edited to add - and all this depends on the freezing level anyway... MSA over the lakes will be up to 3700...)

[172driver]

Last week I flew our club DA40 from Rotterdam to Southern Tunisia and back. We had VFR flight plans for all legs, and without exception, the ATC service from Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, France, Italy, and Tunisia was light-years ahead of anything provided in the UK.

No surprises there....sadly :{

[RTN11]

It is much better to ask for a clearance. Not that many people do, and when you're in class D the ATCO may well keep an eye on you (although he has no legal need to give you traffic info). In my opinion much safer than joining the countless other aircraft skirting round the corner of a CTR at similar levels to stay below a block of class A.