OK, another PPL in the USA question...

[jnhosking]

Hi,

Whenever anyone asks for recommendations for flight schools in the US on this forum, there is usually at least one reply that reads something like, "but get the written exams done before you go!".

I just wanted to know how practical this is. Won't a lot of the theory seem somewhat irrelevant and/or difficult if you haven't done a circuit or two of your local airfield?

Anyone who has done the theory-before-practical route care to share their experience?

Thanks,

BF

[Julian]

Babel,

I did my exams down at Bournemouth airport with a guy called Ron Heyter, he shares a classroom/cabin with the local heli club, not sure if he is still around as this was 2 years ago.

You were expected to read the books and get a basic understanding of each subject although you did not need to be completely au fait with it. You then went to Bournemouth for 3 days where you got 1-1 ground school with Ron and also the exams and your results straight away - the only exam he was not licenced to do was the RT.

I found that although some things were hard to grasp during the 'reading' phase the gorund school soon cleared that up and I got through all of them first time with good marks. I found Met the hardest to get muy head around until attending the school.

The course was 3 days and cost £300, including exams & resits(if req'd), excluding accomodation. Ron arranged this at a local B&B for £20/night and was very good.

I bumped into a couple more on my course that had used him as well and no-one had a wrong word to say about him, which must be good as we were a cynical lot :)

I have heard of PPLs swotting up on their own and then just going for the exams but obviously be a bit harder when you dont have anyone to discuss issues with. Basically I would invest a few days now to save yourself a lot of grief on your PPL.

Julian.

[GoneWest]

Babel....

I work very closely with numerous flying schools in the USA that do UK JAA PPL courses...and in the process have met with dozens and dozens (if not hundreds - over the years) of PPL students.

If they are on the rapid three or four week residential courses - for which Florida is famous - they ALL agree that the workload of learning to fly AND doing the ground examinations is an absolute nightmare.

There is little or no social time left if you are at the school all day and then have to sit in your room all evening studying Trevor Tom books...with no one there to explain the stuff you are struggling to understand.

By the end of the three weeks, the students are often exhausted....and very unhappy at the effort they had to put in...NO HOLIDAY IN THE SUNSHINE!!.

Take this a step further....the flight test cannot be done until all the writtens are passed...if you struggle with a subject, for any reason, and cannot get them all done before your flight home, you may not be able to do the skill test in the USA...that would then entail numerous extra hours of flight training in the UK before you are ready to take the test with a UK school, in UK airspace.

Even worse...if you fail one subject three times...you are prohibited from taking the exam again at the school...you have to go to the CAA building in Gatwick. This would be the immediate end of your flying holiday....all a big waste of money.

Go to your local school...get some groundschool....do all the written exams (or as many as you have time for)...try to get the R/T practical done (and then keep to that standard when you fly in the USA).....then come out here and ENJOY your flying holiday!!

It would even (maybe) put you below the 18 hours a week maximum studying time that would require you to have a visa for entry to the USA....doing a 45 hour course over three to four weeks would let you in (legally) on a visa waiver.

Final thing to consider is that, usually, there is little to no genuine groundschool in the USA flight schools. You will be sent home with a copy of Trevor Tom and told to teach yourself - but things like Air Law and Navigation are different on each side of the Atlantic.

DO THEM IN THE UK BEFORE YOU COME OUT.

(e-mail if you want to talk further!!).

Enjoy the flying....and with the pressure off...you could probably do the night qualification at no extra cost.

[jnhosking]

Seems like this route isn't such a strange way to get a PPL after all :)

Thanks muchly for the advice,

BF

[StrateandLevel]

Another thing to note is that FAA instructors don't teach, they have never been trained to teach like a UK instructor and don't demonstrate much either. Briefings are minimal and despite all they say, they do not follow the JAA or AOPA syllabus. (If you don't believe me, just take a syllabus with you and check it off as you go)

As well as doing the groundschool, you might find a few lessons in UK a good idea, then you would see the difference earlier rather than later.

[Julian]

S&L,

Where did you get that from?. .They don't teach! Don't demonstrate! Minimal briefings and don't follow the JAA sylabus?!?!?

What absolute cr@p!

I undertook my JAA PPL in the US (and passed!).

i) They dont teach - hmmm so how did I pass? Guess I picked it up from reading the textbook!

ii) They dont demnstrate - Everything was demonstrated both in the classroom using model, boards and videos and then again in the air until you got the hang of it and could carry out the task yourself. My instructor would also demonstrate manoeuvres outside the PPL syllabus if he thought it worthwhile.

iii) Minimal briefings - All were carried out before each flight and you were also quizzed to make sure you understood what you had to do. The pre-solo and nav being very good examples with some students not being allowed up until their briefer was sure they were fully conversant!

iv) JAA syllabus - We were given a copy of this in our introductory pack, each exercise had to be signed off and present to the examiner before the GFT to prove we had completed all aspects of the JAA training.

. .If you have had problems with a particular school then say so, but I would not go round making blanket statements like that about US training.

If you dont like the fact that students are going to the US to learn then you will just have to live with it, its just one of those things.

Julian.

[StrateandLevel]

I really don't mind where people train. As an instructor and examiner I see many pilots whose ability is limited by their lack of training. Most UK trained pilots I have checked out can take an aeroplane away solo after a one to two hour checkout; many overseas trained pilots need 15 hours or more. When taught properly, they respond, so one has to conclude there was something missing in the training.

[Julian]

Not really S&L, as I have said before I fly both in the UK & US. I fly from 2 clubs in the UK, both happy after a 1hr checkout.

I have also watched UK trained students completely lacking in ability, so by your inference you could conclude the same about UK schools!

There are of course those instructors who just instantly take a dislike to pilots who have trained abroad. This has been brought up by a few people on this board, I remember one post (fairly recently), where an instructor turned round to a pilot and said 'Pha well thats x hours then!' - before even seeing him fly!!!

There will be schools where the training is not upto standard but these will get weeded out and you only have to look around on here to find students/pilots pointing out good/bad points about schools.

If you are going to tar all non-UK trained students with the same brush then I think you ought to consider swapping professions...

[ianbishop]

Sorry - a late reply to Julian's post of 26 Feb 02, 1510.

I studied for my ground exams conicident with my PPL training and did one a week with Ron Heyter (this was in 96, when he used a club called Airbourne). Great guy and one a week was about the sort of rate to aim at; gave you the chance to read the books, try a few sample questions, then an hour's brush up with him before sitting the exam.

[englishal]

Must be a wind up Julian,

Clearly StrateandLevel has no idea what he's talking about !

EA

[mad_jock]

As a Fl graduate as well i can see where the additional training needed comes from.. .. .If you learn in 21 days things go great as long as you continue to fly as soon as you get back. . .. .Problems occur when you let things stand for a couple of months waiting for the caa to do there admin stuff. By this point you have slipped abit back down the motor skills learning curve and it is different landing in 10 deg C with a stonking xwind with little choice of active compared to 35 deg with a huge runway to choose from most directions.. .. .Also i would disagree with the line that all FAA instructors are crap. It is very dependent on the CFI of the school and what he sets as the standard for the school. which is exactly the same as for the UK.. .. .As a personal recomendation Gerald at Naples taught me multi and because i came prepared with the jar syllabus (which they already had) and UK multi engine theory books things went great. He actually bought them off me so he could improve his knowledge of the jar course.. .. .I did it the hard way and sat the exams over there and it is bloody hard work if your not into studying. I would leave nav until you start doing it for real. And don't let the FAA lads con you into doing wind up method on the wiz wheel. If you can get yur hands on a pooleys workbook or oxford gen nav notes before you go it will save you alot off hassel later on.. .. .And Julian unfortunatly there are more than a few bad eggs over there who give the others a bad name. I must admit i didn't get briefed to UK FI standards ( i am currently doing the ground school for FI myself) i didn't realise it until i started the FI course. But there is no excuse for not reading thom about the exercise before you do it.. .. .Good luck. .. .MJ

[FREIGHTMEISTER]

I agee with using Ron Heyter, used him 6 years ago before doing the Florida thing. What he doesn't know isn't worth knowing. Excellent character and teaching methods. Well worth the time and money for less stress in the USA.... . .. .Brgds. .FM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[englishal]

You'll meet bad instructors...and good instructors everywhere. Just because they tend to wear shorts and T shirts in the US, as opposed to a tie and a couple of stripes on their shoulders as they tend to in the UK doesn't automatically make an FAA instructor any less professional. . .. .Anyone who suggests that the general standard of training in the US is lower than in England is quite frankly talking out of their arse. There may be bad schools, or bad instructors, just as in the UK but on the whole the standard is excellent. . .. .I'm a great advocate of flying in the US (as if you couldn't tell) and I suggest that anyone who has not flown in the US should go and try it. Its is excellent fun, it is easy (less bull), it is far cheaper, and it is just as safe as in good old Europe. I think anyone who criticises the US GA has either had a bad experience with one particular school, or simply cannot handle "complicated" procedures like "talking to air trafic control", having only flown from a small 'radio' field in the UK.. .. .Cheers. .EA

[Monocock]

Englishal. .. .Reading your last paragraph it appears that you may well be one of the reasons that UK schools and clubs are suffering from poor income.. .. .Not just satisfied with advocating the American training system, you are prepared to slag off the English system.. .. .Shame on you, if it's that good why not go there, stay there and continue enjoying it while we fly from our little "radio" fields.. . . . <small>[ 03 March 2002, 08:16: Message edited by: Monocock ]</small>

[Julian]

I think what EA is talking about is a common complaint the instructors in the US have about UK pilots who come over having completed their PPL. I dont think it is intended to say 'dont fly from radio airfields' - in fact my two closest are radio fields. . .. .The problem in the US is if students have trained in a radio field they seem to have a lot of trouble grasping talking to Tower & TRACON is the US, again its just a matter of practice. Having learnt at a busy airport I have gotten used to it, I found radio fields a bit 'weird' when I first used them but you just get used to it. I am quite happy using any and I dont think it was meant as a knock at GA airfields in general.. .. .I do agree with EA that their are bad instructors/schools in the UK, I had hassle with one which now is no more - nuff said! The standard of training in the US is overall very high but you will get 'bad eggs'. I found just talking to the instructors they will tell you where are good places to hire from and where to avoid.. .. .Julian.

[big.al]

Babelfish - . .. .I'm going through this right now. I'm off to Florida next month and have been doing the study/exams since October. So far I have first time passes in Air Law, HPL, aircraft tech. and flight planning. My Met exam is tomorrow. For your info. I've had just a one-hour experience flight in a 152 to get a genuine 'feel' for what goes on, but it's not necessary to be doing the flying in order to pass the ground exams. The one possible exception may be the RT ground exam, which may be easier if you are doing it for real in the aircraft, but in theory even that can be learned from the books.. .. .I intend to get at least Met and Nav out of the way (possibly RT but we'll see) in the next five weeks before I go. Then I'll be able to concentrate on flying and (hopefully) not have to study until the early hours whilst I'm stateside.. .. .Best of luck to you for whichever way you choose to do it.. .. .Big.Al

[englishal]

Monocock,. .. .I'm not slagging off people who fly at "Radio" airfields, there are many good fields out there, and many good pilots, and I'm sorry that you feel offended...My point is that people shouldn't slag off the FAA and US system, when they themselves are lacking in a different type of experience, and haven't experienced flying in the US.. .. .As for supporting the UK system, when they start supporting me, ie. by not charging the earth to fly from A to B for lunch, then I might be a bit more sympathetic towards these poor impoverished clubs and schools. . .. .I enjoy flying in the UK, and would like to do more of it...BUT...I bought a ticket to LA a few days ago, £260 return inc tax. My local flying club charges in excess of £100 per hour for a PA28, and as I'm not rich enough to afford my own aircraft, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that if I want to fly more than a couple of hours, its cheaper for me to jet off to LA where aircraft rental is $75 (£50ish) per hour for a better A/C, no landing fees etc....Thats whats killing GA in the UK, the high charges imposed on us, putting GA out of the reach of 'normal' people.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Thread closed until Babelfish gets email fixed as notification of replies are bouncing to me.