Curious about setting up a private strip in France.

[shortstripper]

Maybe just an idea, but I can dream :)

My father owns a field in Normandy with no house but has a caravan he stays in for a few months a year. I'll never be in a position to buy a house in this country, but country properties in France a far more affordable. There may be a house right next to Dads field coming up for sale in the next few years, so a very embrionic idea has sprung to mind. I'm thinking along the lines of a holiday home for those wanting to fly into a private strip (dads field?) and stay in a nice cottage in the countryside. It would be a way to help pay the mortgage for a holiday/retirement home for us, and would be great fun to plan .... so

Does anyone have experience of setting up a strip in France? Is there anything similar to the 28 day rule over there? Is it a virtual impossibility? I don't even have much experience of flying over there, so this is all just "pie in the sky" at the moment ..... but you never know? ;)

SS :ok:

[Whopity]

No 28 day rule but if you own a field and decide to land in it you'll probably have the gendarmerie knocking on the door. You will need to gain the approval of the local mayor then anything is possible.

Talk to Dave Lord (http://www.wanafly.co.uk/index.php?option=com_exposeprive&Itemid=13) he has recently built his own airfield.

[werewolf]

Where is exactly your dad's field in Normandy ? length ? any obstacle ?

[Jan Olieslagers]

Only hearsay - as anything on any internet forum of course - but ISTR an Ultralight may be operated from any terrain in France, given the owner's consent. Do check it out, though!
Then again, assuming the risk of a channel crossing in an ultralight is left to yourself - how high must one climb to remain within gliding distance?

As an afterthought, I cannot imagine a country in Europe where light aviation is less hard than France. Regulations are none too rigid, and are applied with some flexibility. But your chances of success will rise steeply with your mastery of the language.

[shortstripper]

Thanks for the replies.

As said it's just an idea at present. The field is near Percy and certainly isn't suitable as it stands. It could be made into a short microlight strip, but it's more about the idea at the moment rather than the practicalities of making the strip (that bit I'm certainly capable of). If I went ahead I'd probably look for somewhere more suitable as a few acres with a house or barn to restore would be a better proposition.

I certainly respect the advice about the language. I'm rubbish at French, but if I were to get serious that would have to be a priority for sure.

For an agricultural type short@rse with a liking for great cheese and wine; France, with it's vast rural area's (largely abandoned by the youth in favour of city life) ... has much appeal!

SS

[IO540]

how high must one climb to remain within gliding distance?

Except possibly in a motorglider, a helluva lot higher than you can go without an IR :)

And that assumes flying along the coast all the way so one can do the shortest possible crossing - a huge waste of fuel for many pilots.

[Fuji Abound]

As someone said earlier - talk to the Mayor.

If he is on your side then anything is possible and nothing else matters - that is just the way things happen in France. :)

He will, shall we say, oil whatever wheels need oiling.

If the Mayor is not with you - forget it. :) :)

[Jan Olieslagers]

Quote:
how high must one climb to remain within gliding distance?
Except possibly in a motorglider, a helluva lot higher than you can go without an IR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

I made some quick calcs on the back of an envelope and, from Dover to the St Inglevert NDB, with a 1:9 glideslope, came out at 6000 feet - which would be FL060 in Belgium. So in Belgium one would need a transponder to ever get a hope of being allowed that high, but to my knowledge an IR would not be really required - but what about the French and English airspace?

(sorry for diverting from the original topic)

[Jan Olieslagers]

As someone said earlier - talk to the Mayor.
If he is on your side then anything is possible and nothing else matters - that is just the way things happen in France. :)
He will, shall we say, oil whatever wheels need oiling.
If the Mayor is not with you - forget it.

That's perhaps a bit too much of black vs. white but it certainly runs along with my own perception. Like my own country, France depends on personal relations and influences very much. Such a project will certainly need a strong local backer, and the mayor is the prime candidate. Others might be found though, I think.

BTW conservative as the French may be, they do have some female mayors, so mind your p's and q's :)

@O/P: if ever you go serious about this, do count on me as an interpreter at least. We share interests of flying, cheese and wine, so we should be able to co-operate!

[IO540]

If the Mayor is not with you - forget it

I didn't think France was outright corrupt in the way Spain (and most of the rest of Southern Europe) is.

Certainly, from what I gather from people down there, is that they tend to adopt the 3rd world practice of letting you do all kinds of stuff, until you p1ss off somebody important, and then the sky caves in on you. This is how they run aviation regulation, for sure.

Local planning, I don't know.

Here, it is done by a planning consultant knowing the right people and - bribes are a very 1970s thing; a colour TV doesn't go anywhere anymore - striking a deal with a councillor who is known to object, to withdraw/modify another planning application perhaps belonging to another applicant.

So it is a case of you paying the planning consultant to know the right people.

But if you don't want to pay £200/hr or whatever, you have to know the right people, and this is going to be tricky in a foreign country... but actually it is damn tricky in the UK, too.

[Fuji Abound]

No its not - and I was ignoring the shades of grey - which do exist.

One of my best friends is French, English Mum, French Dad with one of the most beautiful vineyards in the very best part of white wine country - Corton. If you feel brave with your wallet if you do nothing else you must try a bottle once in your life. It is very different from any other white wine you will ever taste.

However, the mayor is very influential and, therefore, if you do nothing else (rather like with the wine) talk to him (or her) first if you want an easy life. The French are very receptive to anything aviation related (much more than we are). A long standing mate of mine who started his aviation related business life in our part of the world moved to France about 15 years ago and setup a micro light business and private strip which subsequently evolved into permit aircraft. He has never looked back. On the down side France has become surprisingly expensive - I heard only last week of a reasonably wealthy family who returned to the UK after a year in France despondent about the sky high cost of living.

[XXPLOD]

My parents have a home in France. As said, the local Mayor is key. Best advice is to move there and become part of the community before starting to try and change things.
I can confirm that aside from local beer/wine the cost of living in France is around 25% higher than the UK. Brits are literally bringing coolboxes over full of food from the UK and saving a fortune of shopping bills.

[IO540]

I am informed by a French pilot that

- microlights and helis can land anywhere, with the owner's permission

- everything else needs DGAC approval. The local mayor sends his report to the DGAC and his view is taken into consideration in the DGAC approval.

[shortstripper]

Thanks :ok:

[gyrotyro]

As a British pilot living in France I have some experience of applying for a private airfield.

As previously noted there is no such thing as the 28 day rule here and pilots who try to use their own land to operate an aircraft run the risk of being arrested.

However the rules for ULM's (Microlights) are different and you can operate an airstrip for one on an almost self certifying basis as lone as it is only for your own use. If you want others to use the strip then you require formal consent which is still pretty straightforward to obtain.

I am also a rotorwing pilot and I have obtained permission from the prefecture de police in Paris to operate a helicopter anywhere I wish with the landowners consent. This permit is valid for ten years and is very easy to obtain. If I want to land in a village then the rule is that if the village is denoted by a yellow spot on the 1/4 or 1/2 mil chart then you need the permission of the mayor before landing, if the village is denoted purely by a clear circle then you do not.

For a fixed wing aircraft you need to send in seven copies of your application to your local prefecture (council) I can't remember the entire list but one copy goes to the, council, local mayor, army, police, airforce, customs, etc. for approval.

There is no fee for the planning application unlike in the UK and you probably wouldn't need a planning advisor unless you are looking to build an airpark. You will need of course to send in a plan of the proposed site. When dealing with the prefecture I have always found them to be helpful and in fact quite positive towards any proposed project. The usual rules about pylons and wires will apply also approach and departure profiles over built up areas.
It is possible to visit the actual planning authority concerned who will be dealing with the application and get their feelings regrding the project before submitting the application to avoid having an initial application returned for lack of of information.

As previously mentioned it is really a question of building up a rapport with the locals, the Mayor is usually very helpful as well, they want to see their villages expand and be vibrant places to live. Getting the neighbours onside is also desirable but not essential, a polite and informed approach is what is required.

Aviation here is not looked on as a rich mans sport and is widely available at a much lower cost via the local aero clubs who are backed by their town council and government support. The cost of hiring a club aircraft here is much less than in the UK as these clubs are run on a non profit basis. Instructors are also subsidised by the national association.

Off message but in response to "XXPLOD" and to echo Whopity regarding the cost of living generally. I also find it less expensive to live here rather than the UK. My combined council tax, bins etc AND my TV licence (Taxe Fonciere, habitation and TV redevision) for a three bedroomed house with over an acre of land comes to 407 euros which is about £335. This is probably less than a quarter of what it would cost in the UK. The house itself of course costing a fifth of a similar sized property in the UK countryside. Mortgage rate is about 4.25% Some items of food are cheaper in the UK but with judicious shopping it is still possible to find good food at reasonable prices. The quality of the meat for example is, so my other half says far superior than that found in most UK butchers.

The new "Auto Entrepeneur" tax system allows self certifying tax returns without the need for formal accounts up to an annual income of I think 88K euros. The tax is either 13% or 23% depending on the type of work involved. This has resulted in over 380,000 people in from the "Black" economy in the last year who did not want to pay the previously high national insurance on a new business.

My hangar fees at a private not a subsidised airfield are £50 a month and there are no landing fees. If there are landing fees they are generally between 3 and 7 euros for most airfields.

No yellow jackets either !!

[Whopity]

I can confirm that aside from local beer/wine the cost of living in France is around 25% higher than the UK.As someone who lives in France and the UK I still find France cheaper.