Throwing Ideas Around - Ownership

[mr_rodge]

Afternoon all, first an update on my story.

After having gained my PPL/NQ in recent months, I am now going through the very much stereotypical stages of 'Can't wait to do the IMC rating' and 'I need to hammer down the cost of flying to ensure I can continue as the prices go up'.

I'm aiming at fATPL, though I can't start studying for two years yet due to university commitments so I'm looking to enjoy flying and steady hour building whilst I can. My budget is £500/month tops and I'm Yorkshire based. I can manage an initial outlay. I realise this is not massive, so from what I can gather I think I may be looking at either a non-equity group or a 'proper' share in a permit aircraft. CofA ownership looks out of reach.

I found what I thought was the perfect solution, Aircraft Groupings (Based at Durham Tees, Manchester Barton, Wolverhampton and Blackpool. I don't mind the six-month contract though availability on weekends is a concern). Problem is, given traffic conditions even the closest Aircraft Groupings base is probably a two-hour drive away. I currently drive about an hour to my club which isn't the closest to where I live but at the time of taking on the PPL the rates were the best and I don't have to pay for my car fuel (I'm one of the lucky ones and work for a company that still funds private mileage).

I'd ideally want to be able to take the aircraft away for the odd weekends (obviously within the UK and VFR if permit) and to be honest I haven't asked my club what the policy is on their hire craft though I think if I picked one of the aircrafts that don't get flown very often they'd be fine with it, as the CFI is very reasonable and friendly and I wouldn't be doing it every weekend due to my budget.

Anyway, as you've probably gathered, I'm very happy doing what I'm doing at the moment (good releationships, competitive rates, great aircraft and an overall warm club atmosphere) and, as I said, just trying to explore the possibilities of flying more hours for the same outlay.

I've done a bit of cost sharing which brings the cost down significantly, but as I said I'd like to take the other half away once in a while!

Thanks for reading this far down the page. Much appreciated. Now the point of the thread? Questions!

Is anyone aware of anything in the Yorkshire area (i.e. non-equity, permit shares etc.) that fit my budget, carry four people and provide a saving over hire? If not, how about some amazingly, stupidly cheap and dangerous aircraft such as open-cockpit single seat kits that I can log my hours on and still afford to hire every now and again for a weekend jaunt to France with the mrs?

Oh, one more thing. I'm wanting to have a crack at aeros. Anything around that fits the bill AND has aerobatic capability?

I don't ask for much, do I?! Tall orders and I'm sure there'll be little or nothing that fits the bill, otherwise everyone would be doing it. As I said, just chucking ideas around at this stage, loving the flying!

Thanks again. Rodge.

[A and C]

If you are going for the fATPL then you might like to look at this guys blog.

index (http://www.zerotoatpl.com)

[mr_rodge]

Just bumping the thread up a bit...

Had a look at the above, A and C. Very interesting read, however as I said due to university commitments (study in my own time, outside full time work) and time/budget constraints I'd be unable to lease an aircraft. I'm looking to enjoy the flying as much as possible whilst steadily building up the hours.

Thanks.

[Zulu Alpha]

You don't say where you are near, but I believe there is a VP1 share at Breighton.

EVANS VP1 SHARE FOR SALE - low cost flying (http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=11885&imid=1)

It might be worth a visit or email to your local LAA strut to find out what else is available in the area.

Doesn't come much cheaper than an LAA aircraft and as you say, just rent the 4 seater when you need the seats.

[liam548]

If you find anything Mr Rodge let me know, I live down the road and am in a similar position to you. How many hours have you clocked up now? I have started studying for the IMC.

Big Red Kite seem like a good company but add fuel (at todays prices) to their £55 an hour rate (PA28) and prices are not far off wet club hire rates.

Theres a 152 at Netherthorpe, I think it is around 2k for 1/12 share, £45 a month and £45 an hour wet.

[A and C]

With the Big Red Kite deal it all depends on how you look at what you are getting.

Most clubs charge Hobbs or chock to chock, localy to me (north of London)the rate for a PA28-161 is around the £156 per hour for this you get about 50 min in the air in an aircraft that is likely only to be able to lift three people and the true four seat 180 Hp aircraft are usualy costing a little more.

The BRK deal is charged take off to touchdown so that the hourly rate is a rate for an hour in the air. so to get the numbers to compare and assuming 10 min taxi time the rate for a BRK aircraft chock to chock is IRO £110 (inc Fuel , 1 landing fee & VAT) vs £156 for a 160 Hp PA28 from a local club.

I am sure that "oop norf" you might find a better price but I doubt that you will beat the BRK price..............but then I would say that!

The Cessna 152 sounds like a good deal but check if the group has an engine fund because stumping up 1/12th of the £13k for a new engine (inc fitting)would take the gloss of the attractive price.

[Dane-Ger]

A dry lease can be a lot cheaper, I leased a C152 through big red kite (it is my website named above), and it worked out at £79 and hour including everything (landing fees, oil etc etc).

The trick is, to fly smart, get the free landing coupons in magazines, find places that give free landings if you buy avgas, check for special offers on fuel. Even better in the case of big red kite, you can base the aircraft at membury for free and fly to France every day to claim duty free fuel.

All of these things would bring the price down, even more, from the price I paid.

Shares are good if you are going to build time over a longer period, say a year, but to fly cheap and fast, a dry lease is the way forward, no sharing, no waiting you fly all you can when the weather is good and you have the flexibility to make it really cheap if you want to (proper leaning of the mixture combined with flying in trim and balance, saved me about 2 -3 litres an hour as well as improving my piloting skills!)

regards
D-G

[Okavango]

That VP1 share looks interesting - £25/month and ~£13/hr. What other exceptional costs could be expected in a group like this - can £25/month (x8) reasonably be expected to cover all fixed costs including engine rebuilds etc?

[Justiciar]

For £7,000 to £8,000 you can pick up a little single seat such as a Turbulent, Brugger Colibri, VP1 (already suggested) or Taylor Mono. Insurance between £350 and £500 per annum, small so low hangerage and low operating costs (10 - 12 litres per hour). Keep it for two years, look after it and sell it for what you paid for it. You can even hire it out to suitable people as single seats do not need to be on a C of A or maintained to a public category.

[tmmorris]

A and C,

I might have known he'd be one of your leasors...

Is the current user of the Archer also writing a blog? ;)

Tim

[A and C]

Keeping the fixed costs down with a lease or two keeps the hourly rate that you pay to a minimum!

[mr_rodge]

Afternoon all,

Sorry for the late reply (Been away).

Thanks for the replies, some great ideas. Looking forward to investigating further, and flying a little less to save a bit of cash!

Rodge.