Question for Ryanair SFIs

[lospilotos]

Hi!

I´m considering going down the SFI route. Would any Ryanair SFIs out there like to shead a little light on the process, T&Cs and most importantly, would you do it again?

Thanks!

/L.

[Mindthegap]

Probably the best career choice you can make. You get the core course and whe you become a captain you are automatically TRI. Good for the CV!

[Avenger]

Process: 5 day Core course, teaching and learning, make sure you do the one with the sim and you get CRMI ticket as well. Then 5/6 day SFI course, TRI rating only issued if you have done 30 sectors on the type in previous 12 months. Check the restrictions, without mentorship from a TRTO you may have problems, but usually the TRI course providers can help. Good investment, probably about 10K in total.
Read STD DOC 24 and LASORS for requirements.

If you have a current FI rating and did it at an approved school, you may get a core course exemption, but then you may not get the CRMI privileges.

Of course you need a type rating on the type you want to instruct, but as an SFI no currency.

You don't have to be a Captain to be a TRI, just meet the requirements.

Good luck.

[zerotohero]

Investment, 10K

Is this not a thread about the Ryanair SFI for Ryanair pilots, not more pay to fly stuff, jesus if Ryanair start chargeing there experiance F/O's to be SFI's I think they will see a big ass hole in there requirements.

[Mikehotel152]

zerotohero - I had the same thought!

[Avenger]

Come on guys, don't turn this into yet another anal PTF thread. I assumed this was a genuine question and the answer to get a TRI is as given. Now if this chap thinks by getting a TRI he/she will get work from FR.. NO, they have their own TRIs.

[brother rice]

From what I hear it's a great thing to do. Training department excellent, learn loads, will make command upgrade much easier.

[Callsign Kilo]

5 day core course / groundschool / instructional technique.
7 sim sessions (2 as observations, 4 sim training sessions and one check). Obviously the more observations that you can make the better.
3 minimum supplementary sessions under supervision of a TRI/TRE. You may be released after this or further supplementary training scheduled.

You pay for the endorsement to you licence, as does any TRE/TRI in Ryanair. :suspect:

[SloppyJoe]

Sorry but I do not know what SFI means, what is it? I know if I don't know why ask, it is just curiosity as to what else you have to pay for in Ryanair.

[Callsign Kilo]

SFI = Synthetic Flight Instructor. The foundation is a TRI course, however SFIs are current line FOs, so hence the SFI title. Primarily 3 weeks of duty is sim and 1 week is regular line flying. The cost of the licence endorsement is yours, however the cost of the course is down to Ryanair.

[McBruce]

Are they still requiring SFI's to be based in STN/EMA?

[Avenger]

If you do the TRI course even as an FO you will get 737 TRI on your licence. If you have not flown 30 sectors in previous 12 months you cannot do the TRI course, only an SFI course. If you do the TRI course Your Licence will be endorsed TRI 737 300-900 sim only.
If you want to instruct on the real aircraft, that requires more training, baulked landings, misshandling etc.

See STD DOC 43 or JAR OPS1

Rank has nothing to do with TRI status

[SloppyJoe]

So as I understand it anyone in Ryanair can pay them to become a sim instructor or type rating instructor, that sounds awesome as 30 secotrs is enough to be a type rating instructor!!!!!! This will really boost the industry as you need a whole 30 sectors to become a TRI, seriously what is this profession becoming? I am so glad I am not employed in the UK if 30 secotor wonders can be TRIs. I am sure I am missing something so please tell me it is not so that you can be a TRI if you have 30 sectors in type?

[ast83]

Yes you missed something, you also need a minimum 1500hrs JAR25. Also, as has already been pointed out, once selected the course cost is covered by Ryanair. The core course is outsourced the sim course is done in house. Once the course is completed successfully the endorsement is paid for by the applicant, direct to the IAA.

SFI's usually do a year or so in the role then move on for command upgrade. As a result, recruitment for the role comes up fairly regularly.

[Callsign Kilo]

SloppyJoe - either use some common sense or stop trying to instigate some sort of rise. I believe the thread is being replied to from two different sources. Those who have knowledge of the SFI/TRI qualification outside Ryanair and those inside Ryanair. I'm sure there isn't a vast amount of difference relating to the stipulations, however the 30 sector in 12 month rule will not apply because it simply can't. All SFIs are current line FOs, so they will have acquired much more than 30 sectors. They also need to have a minimum of 1500hrs on type to apply. They are then interviewed and assessed.

Once qualified their position and endorsement will be SFI. The course is the TRI foundation course, however TRI (sim) status cannot be acquired until command experience has been aquired and simulator training currency retained.

[SloppyJoe]

Its not that I am not using common sense as there are strange things going on in aviation at the moment and was just curios about this. With guys being hired with 250 hours into the right seat of 737s it means that you can be an instructor on the 737 a couple of years after completing your studies at some flying school. To me this seems like a bad thing regardless of who is paying for it.

[Callsign Kilo]

1500hrs is the very minimum. As stated here, guys closer to the command are your usual SFIs. And it isn't simply the case of filling the position with anyone. Quite a bit is expected. They have never had any problems. Guys who had previously been SFIs all transferred to the LHS with ease. Quite a few are now LTCs and TREs. The SFI qualification within Ryanair has been around some time now, even before the fleet became all -800

[go around flaps15]

Spot on Callsign. Amazing it takes 16 posts on a thread before actual facts come to light.

Not dreamy " I want to believe it so it must be true" drivel.

Alas the truth.

[brother rice]

I think you will find sloppy joe that while our SFI may have been flying only 2-3 years on a 737, they are excellent. Much better than any senior TRE/TRI from various major European airlines that I have come across in my career.

[eagerbeaver1]

Mr Kilo

I know of two SFI's that have struggled to pass a command course.

[Callsign Kilo]

Fair enough. However the general trend is that they don't because their list of responsibilities include part of the upgrade training. I cannot account for everyone who has passed through FR as an SFI; however those that I know have had no issue with the command. It is a general belief that they shouldn't. But then we all know what can happen when we generalise..........:rolleyes:

[RAT 5]

Kilo: Did I interpret this correctly? Are you saying that a 1500hrs SFI is invol ved with command upgrade training of another F/O, who by definition must be more experienced? Command courses are with 2 F/O's; I can see the de-briefings, on some occaisions, being very interesting should differences of opinions arise.

[ast83]

Yes you understood correctly. SFI's do not just instruct low time cadets on type courses. They also do recurrent sim training for crew (not OPC/LPC as this requires TRI/E), and OCC courses. As ryanair don't currently recruit direct entry FO's, these OCC courses are for DEC's the vast majority of whom have several thousand more hours on the aircraft than the SFI's. This does not appear to cause problems. As has been said, Ryanair have been using SFI's for a long time now. The company takes a great deal of pride in the standards of its training department, and from what I hear, it is generally held in high regard throughout the industry.

[peba]

sorry to bring this up again but how does a captain become a tri/tre in ryanair if he wasnt an sfi beforehand?is it even possible?

[VJW]

Probably possible, but don't suppose it happens much.

Plenty of line captains become LTC's without having been a SFI/TRI, but obviously you need the TRI to become a TRE.

Normally, like most things in RYR I guess, the normal procedure is to go from SFO with SFI, to Line Capt with TRI, LTC then TRE.

I know lots of Captains who joined RYR via direct entry, who were TRE's at their previous company who keep it valid at their own expense and don't exercise it for RYR.

[peba]

is there anywhere you can do a tri tre course and pay for it by yourself?just a thought!!

[blackred1443]

1500hrs is the very minimum

Wowwww 1500 hrs, bloody hell, thats alot. It certainly puts the 20000 - 30000 hour ex concorde,777 and 747 trainers who i had the pleasure of being trained by into perspective.:rolleyes:

I am no longer surprise by anything Ryr does, just when you think they hit rock bottom they manage to lower it further. Not only that, but the next numpty whose mummy and daddys bank balance is inversely proportional to said numpty's IQ turns up to pay for the pleasure.

[Callsign Kilo]

20,000 to 30,000 hours ex concorde etc doesn't qualify you to train. And I also agree that 1500 hrs on a particular type doesn't either. For the high time guy all that equates to is that you have 20,000 or 30,000 hours worth of flight time; but it doesn't mean you can train. Some people seem to make a prerequisit for a trainer to have 'x' amount of hours. Bollocks. Some of the worst instructors I have ever came across are some of the most 'experienced' operators/pilots that I have met. They may know one or two things about an aeroplane, however their idea of teaching is bawling at some laddie in order to scare him into submission. Training is about finding the right type of person with the right type of mentality. It isn't about being so sort of Chuck Yaeger sky god, with multiple type experience; all within a legacy carrier!

However blackred, I'm sure you are a fine pilot. You will have been trained by the best, certainly.

[McBruce]

Guys,

The SFI's are teaching highly qualified candidates on SOPs and the way RYR want you to attack a certain situations. They are not teaching effects of controls on a 737.

[go around flaps15]

What about all the guys with you at EZY coming off the CTC sausage machine with even worse terms? Some declaring bankruptcy I believe.

All these guys paying for the pleasure too.

When I did my type rating with FR I had an ex 747 skipper doing most my sims.

Big wham.

Do me a favour and get off that stupidly high horse of yours.

[JW411]

blackred1443:

"1500 is the very minimum"

So how do you imagine the creamed-off students in the RAF who got sent off to CFS just after getting their wings, with less than 300 hours in their logbooks, to learn to be instructors managed to cope?

I had my command on 4-engined turbo props with 1521 hours in my logbook. I was a training captain (on the aeroplane - we didn't have a simulator) with less than 2000 hours in my logbook.

Mind you, I had quality training.

[RAT 5]

VJW: I know lots of Captains who joined RYR via direct entry, who were TRE's at their previous company who keep it valid at their own expense and don't exercise it for RYR.
How does this work? I thought you need to be sponsored by a TRTO. A few years ago, when my TRE was converetd into a JAA version, you could check out any JAA licenced pilot. Now I'm told my checking validity is only under the sponsoring TRTO, i.e. the airline I'm working for. If this restriction is true, how can someone maintain themselves as an independant TRE, or be sponsored by a TRTO they don't work for? I can ask permission/discretion to perform a one-off check on an ad-hoc basis outside of my TRTO. Further, when I left my first TRTO I was told my TRE lapsed automatically. This was 2000.

[VJW]

Rat5 you are correct. I believe they are still sponsored by their old trto.

Not every airline has their own trto and approval.

[jayc004]

Don't mean to get involved in all this company bashing, but if you ask me, (which I know your not), but it sounds like you sir (blackred1443) are BA.
In that case, I know of a few people who are FO TRIs down your way. They do EXACTLY the same job as Ryanair SFIs. So because they are in a blue and silver uniform and have a little hat makes it fine, however if Ryanair do it then it is horrific!!

Also, referring to the point that people who are SFIs tend to do better in the command course, that often has a little to do with the fact they are part of the training department if you know what I mean.
The command course is nothing to do with how you fly the plane on one engine, or how well you read the checklist. Do what you have done for the past 4 years and you can pass the 4 day command sims with ease. It is all about how you manage the day to day operations. Your decision making process. Just because you have 500 hours of sitting in the back of a full motion MS Flight Sim doesn't mean you can interact well with ground staff and cabin crew, ops and crewing, and most importantly multitask 5 things at once on a 25 min turn around when it is winter ops and your running late!!

Everyone bashes Ryanair, and believe me when I say I am not the biggest FR fan in the world, but look at our stats compared to all the other companies in the UK. You will see that accidents, incidents and the like are no different any other operator including BA!! It just in Ryanair you don't have to wait for 60 year old Nigel to pop his clogs or take his final salary pension before you can leave the comfort of the RHS where you have been for the last 15 years waiting for your number to come up.

Put it this way, it's not a willy waving competition, but Ryanair is no Onur Air!!

[stev]

hey guys,

this is for sloppy joe, i'm sure I will not have been the first one to tell you this, but your a complete idiot a fool of the highest regard. Their is defo strange things happening in aviation when they let people in that can't even read...tit:mad:

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Worst instructor I've ever had: 737-300 TRI with 20000 hours of Phantom, F15, 727 and 737. Just yelled at you the whole time.

I don't care if you can do Sudoku while hovering in a Harrier. I don't care that if you look young enough to be my son or daughter. If I sit in the taxi thinking "that was a useful sim", you get my vote.

It's the same as the pointless debate about how many hours you should have to be the RHS of a jet. It's about STANDARDS. As long as you have a professional and experienced training management team, they will make sure that FO hiring, initial line checks, command upgrades and training promotions will be given to be people who make the grade. Will they get it right 100% of the time? Off course not. But the whole process has nothing to do with how many hours and how many types you have flown (within the minima of the regulators, obviously).

P

[Falcone]

To Peba,

is there anywhere you can do a tri tre course and pay for it by yourself?just a thought!!

There are many options for TRI course. Let say, try this one; proaviator.aero

To RAT 5

You may be TRE not only in TRTO, but as well as TRE on list of your Aviation Authority. That is how independent TREs exist.

[d105]

Some extra information for those interested.

Contract supposedly last for one flying year. Although some are individually negotiated the basic one seems to be 1 week flying 3 weeks sim. Either based at EMA or at STN. You're allowed to pick the flights you would like to do in your flying week.

T&C's of your individual contract apply to your flying week. T&C's of your SFI contract apply to sim weeks.

Rumoured pay at €450 for each planned sim session. No figures or TRI or TRE payscales though.

[Cloud Bunny]

You're allowed to pick the flights you would like to do in your flying week.

Not true mate. At the mercy of Dublin for that.


Rumoured pay at €450 for each planned sim session

About right for the Brookfield guys. Those on Ryanair contract don't get anywhere near that for sim sessions, but are amply catered for in other ways on the FR deal.


T&C's of your individual contract apply to your flying week. T&C's of your SFI contract apply to sim weeks.

The contracts crossover, they are not seperate. eg sector pay rates.

[d105]

Edit my last post. Information is for Brookfield only it seems.

[7Q Off]

So an FO who is a SFI can train an FO to upgrade to captain in Ryanair?

[frogone]

There are 4 sim periods for the CU upgrade.

Days 1 & 2 are usual LPC failures, approaches from the left seat, nothing unfamiliar. These can be instructed by an SFI FO.

Day 3 is a LOFT usually conducted by a TRI/TRE, Day 4 is a LPC conducted by a TRE. Obviously an FO SFI can't do day 3 & 4.

[7Q Off]

Command upgrade should be done by commanders. They can transmit the FO upgrading a lot more about the job, experience, tips, etc than a FO doing SFI work but with not actual experience on the job. Command is not about flying but how you manage the resources. But If it works for Ryan............ cheap for them.

it is cheaper to pay an FO to do SFI job that paying a Captain to do the real work. Training is a place were you should not try to save money.

[7Q Off]

On Ryan FO abort a Take off or the CPT handles the Throttle on the TO???

even I do not agree with a SFI even training a prospective CPT on a V1 Cut on the first day what you tell me ALLOW is better than a SFI conducting all the training. :ok:

[zerotohero]

The SFI's doing day one is like the RST & LPC checks, SFI day 1 then LTC for the LPC on day 2

The classroom stuff they teach on day 1 of ground school is above the level they were trained as an F/O and so its not an F/O teaching someone to be a captain, its an SFI going through some fundamental stuff and facts, cant see a problem with that at all, the SFI's are much more knowledgeable than I am as an F/O flying the line, and this is down to the extra training and been constantly in a training environment.

I never look at the SFI's in an RST thinking who the hell are you trying to teach me when were in the same job on the line, and nor do any of the captains I have done recurrent training with, they are well respected in the airline and for good reason I feel.

End of rant :ok:

[BongleBear]

firstly to clear up the command upgrade info: frogone was correct

day 1 command upgrade is pretty much just getting used to flying from the left. standard ops, circle to land, v1 cut, single engine work, approaches, rto/pax evac and narrow runway ops. these are nothing new to the pilot, the only things that differ are some of his/her actions and the perspective of the seat position.
day 2 goes on from day 1 in a similar fashion.
day 3 is a loft exercise - where decision making plays a bigger part. this can only be trained by TRE minimum qualification.
day 4 is the lpc (or lst if the fo doesn't have an atpl already)

7Q Off
Command upgrade should be done by commanders. They can transmit the FO upgrading a lot more about the job, experience, tips, etc than a FO doing SFI work but with not actual experience on the job. Command is not about flying but how you manage the resources. But If it works for Ryan............ cheap for them.

it is cheaper to pay an FO to do SFI job that paying a Captain to do the real work. Training is a place were you should not try to save money.

the job, experience, tips etc... will be done prior to the sims during command line management training (kind of suitable title don't you think?) from the right seat, and after the sims during command line training.
the training done by the sfi is sop's, procedures, profiles, callouts and manoevres. this has nothing to do with being money saving.

hope this cleared things up.

now for the original question, lospilotos:

the t's and c's are very good, the change in pay will of course depend on what you've been on with your current contract. east midlands operates to the standard 5/4 with every 4th set being a flying 5 days, from the base of your choice (as available). from stansted it's currently mon-fri, again every 4th you fly. you may only get around 300 hours in for the year, but the experience and confidence with the aircraft (systems knowledge, general handling etc..) you gain is incredible. all of the training department are great people to work with and on an individual level it's excellent for your own career development. pm me if you want any more info and i'll try to help you out. best regards

[7Q Off]

Still dont agree but if it works for Ryan good for them or yo guys.

In my company they trial the use FO as SFI for less than one year to train other FO (If I remember the trial last 7 to 8 months). Same as ryan, procedures, etc on the first 4 or 5 days of a type rating, then a training Captain overtakes the training. They even give recurrent training to other FO. They were never allowed to give simulator to a CAPT or a FO upgrading.

But after the trial, the general concern is that a Captain can transmit a lot about the job more to FO than other FO. There quality of training wasn't as high as the company wanted so they drop the idea.

[jayc004]

I don't see what all the fuss is about.

CAE and GCAT have people doing type ratings that are not actually airline pilots. So why are they qualified to teach RTOs and failures when they have not even been in an airliner flight deck?

BA has First Officers who are TRE/TRI.

So why is it so scandalous to have a first officer, (who has done the exact same course as the captain to run the sim), running a sim.

The 4 days of sims are not about making line management decisions. They are about following procedures that are clearly written in our manuals. If you have gone 4 years previous and done at least 6-8 LPC/OPC and have no idea what is contained in the manuals, then you are bloody lucky!!

Day 2.3.4 you are left to your own devises to see how you make decisions as a captain. There is very little input, if any, during the sims because they are looking at how you handle QRH procedures and decisions. The debrief is then a discussion about why you did what you did.
If you can honestly tell me that some 3000 P1 hour captain who has not had an emergency is better qualified to discuss emergencies and the Ops manual then a 3000 P2 first officer who has had emergencies then you are a fool!

I can tell you for one thing, ALL the SFIs know more then some of the normal line captain out there, and I would rather be sat next to an SFI in a real emergency then some of the old boys!

Can we please forget about it and go back to the thread topic.



If you want to be in EMA or STN, and have a choice of any other base during your line flight week, then go for SFI.
i have not noticed it make much difference to the ability to complete the command upgrade OUTSIDE of the sim stuff.
When operating online, you are not worried about all the failures that they throw at you in the sims. The line training is all about managing the operation, and is where a lot of people struggle regardless of if they were an SFI and can read a QRH nicely.
:ok:

[charlies angel]

So lets get this straight.
To be a captain in Ryanair merely involves:

"The 4 days of sims are not about making line management decisions. They are about following procedures that are clearly written in our manuals."

As cabin crew follow procedures that are clearly written in manuals are Ryanair not missing a cost saving trick here?

IE get some of the really sharp and experienced CC ( say more than 6 weeks/50 sectors in the job) to train the new first officers.

After all I'd much rather be trained by a crew member who has had multiple problems to deal with than some 20000hr dinosaur who keeps criticising me:E

[VJW]

That's probably what the sim section of the upgrade involves, the rest is covered by Line Training Captains during the upgrade students 1 month + line training.....

[7Q Off]

So when you upgrade to captain in ryanair you are not require to make management decisions during the 4 day sim training?

jayc, to be honest, If you want me to believe than an FO is more qualified than a CAPTAIN to train other pilots just because he pushes bottoms on the box you wont succeed. If you tell me than the FO at ryan are former jet or turboprop captains first I can agree with you. Off course than a Captain is more qualified to teach than an FO. A 3000 P1 Capt pushing bottoms is more qualified than a 3000 hs P2. The captain has a lot more experience than the FO. On an upgrade a more qualified guy (CPT) should train a less qualified guy (FO or Prospective captain). He has more to offer to the trainee than an FO.

Now I understand why Ryan wants to put Cabin crew as first officer, He has FO more qualified than their own Captains. :E:E

[D O Guerrero]

Given that a large number of posters here are from outside Ryanair and seek to criticise a system of which the majority seem to know less than nothing, perhaps we could restrict posts to those which actually address the original question? There is a multitude of other threads where you can all display your staggering ignorance...

[Callsign Kilo]

Given that a large number of posters here are from outside Ryanair and seek to criticise a system of which the majority seem to know less than nothing, perhaps we could restrict posts to those which actually address the original question? There is a multitude of other threads where you can all display your staggering ignorance...

I think you hit the nail squarely on the head there sir. The employment of SFIs from the FO position (or the senior FO position as it was formally recognised as back then) dates back to the age of the 737-200. It has worked well for Ryanair; in the same fashion as it works well for other airlines; whether that be Aer Lingus or British Airways. Both these airlines employ their FOs as SFIs. Sure you can argue with great conviction that in each case the Ryanair SFI is likely to have less 'hours of experience' on type than their EI or BA counterpart; however this is largely because the CU training process at FR starts at 2900hrs; based on the suitability and eligibility of the candidate. Within the likes of the, for they can do no wrong carriers, such as BA and EI; CU usually occurs between 8 to 15 years after joining, depending on seniority and aircraft fleet. Then eligibility and suitability is considered. If either airline had experienced a similar rate of growth as Ryanair then their respective systems would be much different. It isn't a case of comparing apples for apples.

Also just for a little bit of perspective, the minimum licensing requirements for a potential applicant to be considered as an SFI in EU land is 1500hrs JAR 25 time. They don't even need to be current on the type in question, they don't have to be current line pilots and there is no requirement to have flown in an operational capacity for the airline that they are conducting training for. So where does this leave the 'who is more experienced/qualified to train argument?' And by the way this is happening at a variety of FTOs across Europe.

jayc, to be honest, If you want me to believe than an FO is more qualified than a CAPTAIN to train other pilots just because he pushes bottoms on the box you wont succeed. If you tell me than the FO at ryan are former jet or turboprop captains first I can agree with you. Off course than a Captain is more qualified to teach than an FO. A 3000 P1 Capt pushing bottoms is more qualified than a 3000 hs P2. The captain has a lot more experience than the FO. On an upgrade a more qualified guy (CPT) should train a less qualified guy (FO or Prospective captain). He has more to offer to the trainee than an FO.

Try to put things in perspective here. For one, is your statement even correct? Does someone with 3000hrs P1 have an ability to train? If you have two candidates, one with 3000hrs P1 and the other with 3000hrs P1(US); however the second candidate shows a great level of adaptability, aptitude and interpersonal skills - then who gets the job? The training equasion IS NOT hours of experience = ability to be a trainer.

Additionally, former TP and jet operators with oodles of experience have failed 737 TR courses. Also 'highly experienced' 737 operators have failed OCCs; quite spectacularly. What have they got to add? With an SFI you have a strong training record in relation to OPCs,LPCs and line checks along with several pre-assessments of character, competence and ability by existing LTCs and TREs who have flown with them on numerous occasions. The vast majority of SFIs are also at or approaching the CU stage themselves. Several have previous instructional experience.

Lastly, the consideration lies on what your objective actually is? Within the Ryanair perspective of CUs, the decision making process, as a commander, is not trained or taught by SFIs. As already said on a number of occasions, SFIs within FR train Day one of CU Sim. This is a non assessed day, giving the CU candidate handling experience from the LHS of the aeroplane. It is there to refresh their procedural knowledge in a Normal and non normal context. Their use of the QRH and their application of SOPs, supplementary procedures, part A knowledge is assisted. This is what SFIs are expected to do in their day to day roles as trainers. Day one is a confidence builder as is used to assist the candidate with their training. The rest of the LOFT type exercises are conducted by TRE's. Command decision making is really trained/assessed on the Line as part of line training by LTCs. However the candidate may not make it to this stage should they be deemed ineligible in the sim. At NO STAGE does an SFI make the decision on eligibility. How could they?

No one has to 'agree' with FRs system. However having a bit of an understanding of the system often helps.

[Callsign Kilo]

Oh, and if there are any SFIs reading this, please put more time and effort into teaching rotations and landings as this is very poorly taught in my opinion.

What specifically is being 'very poorly taught?' It's always interesting to know.

[d105]

Oh, and if there are any SFIs reading this, please put more time and effort into teaching rotations and landings as this is very poorly taught in my opinion.

That one made me smile. I have yet to fly a simulator which is able to accurately simulate aircraft handling characteristics during a landing. Most of them don't even come close.

In a simulator you learn the basic dynamics of landing your aircraft. On the line you learn to land it properly.

[Callsign Kilo]

Ok "in my last airline" so landing the a/c is taught on the basis of ' what works for you' is it? Go read the FCTM is your words of wisdom to all SFIs. Well its being read and that's how its taught. Now I'm pretty positive that not all the FOs that you fly with are poor at landing the aircraft and I'm even more sure that not all cadets have equally the same problem. However I am interested to know, what; in your humble opinion is being done incorrectly?

As for rotations, maybe you should read the FCTM. VR is the point where rotation is commenced, Not the point where the nose wheel is off the ground. VLOF is where the aircraft is airborne (usually between 3-4 secs) and the target pitch attitude is 15 degrees, not 17. It is taught in the sim to look outside, as this the initial step of having them spot the direction of yaw in the event of a V1 cut or EFATO.

If you are experiencing continual issues then I would certainly agree with galacticosh. It may be best to deal directly with the training department

[Say Mach Number]

As a current TRE in FR all I can say is SFIs are one of the best moves the airline has made. I can also say 'the jury was out' on the idea until we all had a sim session with them. Very knowledgeable and what they lack in experience they make up with their enthusiasim and professional approach.

They all tend to be senior Fos to start with and its not designed to be a one off. It is designed to be the first step to LTC and ultimately TRE. If your just in it for a go in the sim for a year thats not acceptable.

I have also done several command upgrades on SFIs and its a dawdle compared to non SFIs. Have not met one who has struggled at their own command training.

If you have a passion for training its a great way into the training dept and ultimately TRE. If not dont bother.

As an aside I did all my Boeing 737-800 training in Seattle with Boeing instructors. Our main instructor was ex USAF with his 90% of his carreer on F4 and retired with a spell on the Herc to avoid a desk job. Never flown in the civilian world and never flown a civil airliner in his life never mind the type he was teaching!! He seemed alright to me...................:D

[in my last airline]

Well in my medium sized base most LTs find there is a problem with rotation and it's D105s post that hits the nail on the head. He believes you cannot teach these aspects in the sim. I say that's wrong and that's the issue I have with some trainees. I put my two pennies worth thru the system too, don't worry about that! Never miss an opportunity to train hey?

[D O Guerrero]

Rotation and landing are all well taught at Ryanair in my opinion. If anyone is to blame for poor technique, it is the gash Captains who attempt to pass on their wisdom to newly qualified FOs. I've heard a thousand techniques and none of them work as well as the advice given in the FCTM and that given by line and sim trainers.

[in my last airline]

Callsign Kilo
Rotation is initiated at Vr. Rotation of the airplane not the action of pulling the control wheel back. Vlof occurs 3 secs later (that's the airplane not the nosewheels); 15-16' all engine attitude. Written for -600-900 from an empty airplane to a max gross weight one; from 30kts of HWC TO 15kts of TWC. I think all engine attitudes are variable by a couple of degrees or so. So let's say 14' to 20' in reality depending on scenario. The techniques of the FCTM should be practiced but the numbers are a ballpark. When the original FCTM came out it said liftoff attitude was 8.2' for F1 and also F5. We all knew it wasn't and low and behold it's since changed along with FR decision not to use F1 for takeoff if avoidable.

[d105]

Well in my medium sized base most LTs find there is a problem with rotation and it's D105s post that hits the nail on the head. He believes you cannot teach these aspects in the sim. I say that's wrong and that's the issue I have with some trainees. I put my two pennies worth thru the system too, don't worry about that! Never miss an opportunity to train hey?

And again I will ask the same question. Point me to the exact line in the exact post where I say it is not possible to teach the aspects of rotation or landing in a sim.

You will find I never said that. Surprise...

[johnpilot]

What is your point alpaguer320?