Is sidestick the way of the future

[ravi30]

Hi everyone

I wanted to discuss about sidestick controllers. It is little over 22 years since Airbus A320 the worlds first digital fly by wire jetliner started commercial service. One giant big step in the world of civil aviation. Now we have A330,340 and the A380 all with sidestick controllers. The Sukhoi regiaonl jeliner and theBombardair C series too wil have sidesticks.

I want to ask Airbus pilots these questions . Do you like the sidestick . Do you feel it is more ergonomic and precise compared to the conventinal control coloumn. Finally do you think is sidestick the way of the future. I would like you hear from all of you.

Thank you.

[Chris Scott]

Hi ravi30,

No doubt your request will generate some lively discussion, but I trust that, if you haven't done so already, you spend a day or two looking through the column-kilometres of PPRuNe threads discussing possible FBW factors in various Airbus incidents. I've even contributed to one or two of them myself.

It may be that some of those who have previously devoted time and trouble to sharing their considerable knowledge and experience may be a little reluctant to rehearse these arguments all over again. It is certainly a fascinating topic. The ergonomic and engineering factors for and against sidesticks in a two-pilot cockpit are not as simple as they may first appear.

That said, good luck in your forthcoming dissertation.

Chris

[A-3TWENTY]

I`ve flown both and I love the sidestick.

Fighters are flown in dog fights , close to the ground and other extreme conditions with sidesticks. Why airliners couldn`t?

Furthermore in a flight of 12 hours you will use it for 5 minutes max.Sometimes a lot less. Why I need a column stuck there in front of me?

More.If you have an useless column , you can`t have a very usable table.

It`s just advantages.

Those who like columns are those old fashioned minds which resist to all kinds of changes. Those which , left by themselves would be still flying open cockpits.

A-3TWENTY

[safelife]

Having flown both with column and side stick, back and forth, I like both.
Certainly the side stick is no disadvantace flying-wise.
Having no table is, though!

[Airbus Girl]

I've flown both and I much prefer the sidestick. I find it much more accurate (although that could be the aircraft FBW design too) and the space you have in front of you makes for a much more pleasant working environment. I find it much more tiring flying a Boeing, and I think that is partly caused by the cramped flight deck, which is made more cramped by having the control column.

The only benefit I can see with the control column is that it is easier to tell just what the other pilot is doing, inputs wise.

[Denti]

It is very easy to interconnect a force-feedbacked sidestick. I know the DLR developed something like that on request of airbus about 25 or so years back, but it was ditched because it cost a few bucks more.

For me the ideal airplance would have the spacious airbus cockpit with sidestick, but interconnected ones, moving thrust levers and overall the boeing flightcontrol philosophy as well as their EICAS.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Also, it is important to note different flight control law typically apply to a side sticked plane....Boeing FBW is so-called C*u stable meaning-conventional-or speed stable...whereas Airbus is'C' or flight path stable...although I think a 'q' term' would also be beneficial:ouch:

[Less Hair]

I fully agree with Denti's post. Airbus-style sidesticks, just interconnected, would be fantastic. Have seen a demo sidestick on some airshow by an airbus supplier years ago (must have been ILA08). They could even emulate stall buffet and other "feelings" on their connected sidesticks. Most impressive. That should be the way to go for the Airbus NGSA A320-follow on or however they call it. Current sticks are responsive but can feel a tad "dead" if you have seen the difference.

And I'd personally dislike any fixed F-16-style sticks. However for a high g environment they might just be best fitting. Different business.

Finally the keyboard will be the most used interface during any flight. Moving the yoke out of the center seems just logical.

[hetfield]

Flying both, control wheel and side stick (727&A300, A3402&A320).

It's not a matter of steering the plane, it's a matter of understanding what's behind.

If you look to the (many) changes of the FCOM of A320/330/340 (I don't know about 380) issues, it may give you an idea how complex this AC are.

At the very end it's just a marketing tool, to say e.g. A is better than B.

Out:)

[parabellum]

Those who like columns are those old fashioned minds which resist to all kinds of changes. Those which , left by themselves would be still flying open cockpits.



A-3TWENTY - You had a good post right up until you wrote the above, then you spoilt it with a really silly comment.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Uhoh- here we go:}

-you're not a pilot
-you're talking tosh
-I have 100000 hrs
-My willy is the grandest site



and so on and so forth:ooh:

[clunckdriver]

A 3Twenty, You must be an absolute joy to fly a fourteen hour day with! With that kind of comment Im sure you will find that you will be getting much less than the five minutes pole time you claim at the moment, you might like to try hand flying it a bit more, you might even enjoy it.{By the way I was one of the very early drivers of the Bus, have also flown an open cockpit}

[CONF iture]

Here is what the UK CAA has to say on the sidestick à la sauce Airbus :
Awareness - Trainers operating FBW types with sidestick controls (i.e. no traditional control yoke) should understand that flight deck cues of a trainee pilot’s handling/mishandling are less than in conventional types. The absence of a traditional ‘yoke’ makes assessment of the flare manoeuvre particularly difficult. Trainers should develop a modified scan that should include changes to attitude, idle power selection and, ideally, sidestick movement.

Does anyone have information on the Sukhoi regional jeliner and the Bombardair C serie, what type of sidesticks do they have or plan to have : interconnected or not ?

[NSEU]

Fighters are flown in dog fights , close to the ground and other extreme conditions with sidesticks. Why airliners couldn`t?

No ejector seats :}

[A-3TWENTY]

A 3Twenty, You must be an absolute joy to fly a fourteen hour day with!
When flying manually is allowed , I have no objections.Would you use to get upset when your FO didn`t want to fly manually? I don`t .Up to him.He is not neither better nor worst because he decided to fly AP all the time.

With that kind of comment Im sure you will find that you will be getting much less than the five minutes pole time you claim at the moment, you might like to try hand flying it a bit more, you might even enjoy it

For sure!! Since you are retired , you are not updated , but nowadays with RNAV SID`s and Approaches , you are not allowed to fly manually.Here in China , one RNAV dep. requires you to engage de AP not later than 500 Ft ( 1 minute).
During RNAV APP , AP is a requirement and for the approach ...Non-Precision or CATI , you can disconect it (~3 min.) . If you are going for a CAT II /III or RNAV..again you are not allowed.

Again , we have restrictions with the FOM.There are number of conditions to fly manually. Min.visibility of 5000 M , bla ,bla , bla.

More. Have you heard abot FOQA? Yes..nowadays , even your taxi speed is controlled.The speed you turn.The speed you enter in your gate.Otherwise....a cofee with the chief pilot( during your day off , of course).And you know? I`m not one of those guys who like to be around the chief pilot. I do prefer my family.

{By the way I was one of the very early drivers of the Bus, have also flown an open cockpit}

And what?? I like those old charming airplanes .I love them. I flew BT-19. But definetely they don`t apply for the comercial aviation anymore and we have to accept that.They had their time.
I`m not criticizing the old birds. I`m just saying that fight against the changes is useless. Or do you think that if all pilots complain the industry will bring the F/Es back??
People are so hard to accept changes that almost 25 years after the sidestick was implemented , you still hear people saying that it could`t be there.(like the auto thrust by the way).

To end-up:
Those who REALLY enjoy flying are those who have they own bird , or go to the airfields, rent one to enjoy the real flying.

Don´t tell me that one flying 90,100 hours a month in a very restricted airspace like the european one , with FOQAs recording your flight , and sometimes with one FO that you barely know , you will fly manually most of the time .Do you??
This is an era where most of the chief pilots , once they manage to seat their ass down in that chair , forget completely they once were pilots and go to the bean counters side.

I still like airplanes and the flight ( once doors are closed) , but all the environment you have to deal with to have the chance to fly and bring a shorter salary home...I`m tired out.There was a time when this still was a profession of gentlemen...


A-3TWENTY

[Denti]

Dunno, one of the top 5 european airlines and our OPS-manual actually urges us to hand fly wherever possible to keep our skills up. But then, we are allowed to hand fly RNAV departures and arrivals, are allowed to hand fly CAT II approaches although of course we have to do autolands in CAT IIIa/b cases.

Personally i like to hand fly below FL100, but sometimes up to cruising altitude, doing raw data approaches or simulated raw data ones (NPAs with boeings IAN technology) whenever i feel like it and the captain is comfortable with (some do not like the FO hand flying, sadly).

FOQA is a given nowadays, however that the question is not if it is there, but how the data is used. Seems from your post china still takes the stone-age approach of using it as a personal prosecution tool instead of a modern SMS.

I do agree however that renting a nice acro plane for personal pleasure beats flying the boeing hands down, however over here prices are quite prohibitive for private flying as you won't find a good plane for less than around 200€ an hour.

[Slasher]

Do you like the sidestick.

No. It doesnt feel natural and I get no feeling of security like I did with the Boeings.

Do you feel it is more ergonomic and precise compared to the conventinal control coloumn.

No. With the column I could make the airplane sing. I cant do the same with a goddamn Scarebus sidestick. I reckon sidesticks were realy meant to make the conversion easyer for gays and women.

Finally do you think is sidestick the way of the future.

Unfortunatley yeh but thank christ I willve retired by then.

- 3600hr PIC A320

[Brian Abraham]

How long have sidesticks been about you might ask. Honeywell produced what was known as a "formation stick", first fitted to the B-24 during WWII, also B-17 and B-29, to reduce fatigue on long formation flights. Operated via the autopilot.

[Tom355uk]

'Slasher' said:


Do you like the sidestick.
No. It doesnt feel natural and I get no feeling of security like I did with the Boeings
Do you feel it is more ergonomic and precise compared to the conventinal control coloumn
No. With the column I could make the airplane sing. I cant do the same with a goddamn Scarebus sidestick. I reckon sidesticks were realy meant to make the conversion easyer for gays and women.

Which says all you need to know about:

Those who like columns are those old fashioned minds which resist to all kinds of changes.

:rolleyes:

I can't believe they let people like this have such an amazing career.

There is no justice in the world :ugh:

[NOLAND3]

I doubt Slasher really does have 3600 PIC on the 320. If he does please let me know what outfit he's with so I can keep my family well clear.

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi,

I agree with Denti.

We have no idea what control input the other pilot making when close to the ground. We can only observe the result. It's not recommended to add to the input due no feed back from the other pilot's side stick position and if it becomes necessary to take over during the flare, we start from a stick neutral position.

I also miss the tactile feed back of moving Thrust Levers when auto thrust is engaged.

Airbus has the first generation FBY side stick and Thrust Lever controls - Boeing with their 777 and 787 have the second generation.

@ Slasher. We haven't been directly connected to the flight control surfaces since they became powered by hydraulics. If hanging onto a control column gives you a feeling of security & you only have 3,600 hours PIC A320 - then please tell me who you fly for so I can avoid them also.

[willfly380]

Flown Boeings all my life and have 12000 hrs tt also have been a TRE for the past 4 yrs. not very old at 39 .
i have 250 odd hrs on the Bus now and love the side stick , simply because i think it makes the cockpit more comfortable for long haul flights. I think while handling strong gusting crosswinds , i would have preferred the Control column, probably because i am new to the Bus .
But yes i think that is the way forward.

[D O Guerrero]

I've flown with a few Slasher types - they all invented flying, can do it better than you, don't need an FO and think Chuck Yeager was overrated. Comments like that usually reveal the world's biggest closet case too...

Anyway - back to aviation. The sidestick was originally trialled on Concorde 201, rather than the Airbus aircraft - the technology then being developed further for use in the A320 series. Interesting Fact...
I'm a Boeing pilot and recently flew an Airbus for the first time - I have to say, I'm converted (not officially). The sidestick is brilliant. The 737 now feels agricultural...

[clunckdriver]

"Feels agricultural?" I gues you havnt kept up with developments in farming, Combines/Tractors/Swathers/Even my snow blower, GPS auto navigated, side stick remote controlls, Nav displays, use a UAV to survey crops, all of which cost far more than my aircraft! But if talking down to those of us who feed you makes you feel good, so be it.

[Pugilistic Animus]

although I think a 'q' term' would also be beneficialperhaps he meant this:}
edit:
Uhoh- here we go:}

-you're not a pilot
-you're talking tosh
-I have 100000 hrs
-My willy is the grandest site



and so on and so forthhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/icon25.gif


:}:}:}

[D O Guerrero]

Sorry Clunck - I thought this was a forum for pilots... Perhaps I'll find a farmers' forum, see if anyone uses the term "airheaded" and try and get upset about it.

[clunckdriver]

D O,Yes, it is a pilots forum, to avoid dying of "straight and level syndrome" I took eighteen seasons of from flying the heavy iron to go Fire Bombing/Spraying/Dusting/Seeding/Top Dressing, some of the systems used these days to place the stuff in the right spot make the Bus look crude. lots of fun, you should try it sometime. Other than the military its the only legal low flying there is these days! By the way, we live on a farm, keep our two little airplanes just by the back door, wouldnt live any other place if you paid me.{By the way, if you do go to a farmers forum, you will see we whine just like most pilots!}

[ravi30]

Hi Everyone

First of all thanks to veryone who contributed in this thread. Sidestick controllers have now been around for 22 yrs. So this thread gave very good pictures on how the pilots perceive the sidestick.

It is now very clear the vast majority of pilots like the sidestick. I managed catch up with few Boeing 747 drivers who are now in the A380 they too loved it.

Is sidestick the way of the future. Well Besides Airbus Bombardair C seies, Sukhoi regional jet and now the Irkut MC 21 will have sidestick.

In the Business avaition Flacon 7x got sidestick. I am sure bombardair too will give sidestick to its future jets.

In the General avaition sector Cirrus the market leader is fitted with sidesticks. All the new GA aircraft built either have centre stick or sidestick.

I think sidestick is definitely the way way of the future with the exception Boeing.

[babotika]

I much prefer a sidestick, I find it far more intuitive and ergonomic compared to having a big heavy steering wheel in my face, which I only use to take-off, land and fly the odd approach.

I do miss some tactile feedback, especially knowing what the other pilot is doing. Force-feedback sidesticks would be aviation perfection to me.

I wonder where this steering wheel thing in commercial aviation came from in the first place. Early aircraft had centresticks (?), fighters always have and always will have some form of stick... Where did we get lost in the commercial world?

S.

[Pugilistic Animus]

I do miss some tactile feedback, especially knowing what the other pilot is doing. Force-feedback sidesticks would be aviation perfection to me.




although I think a 'q' term' would also be beneficial


Told you so since my second posts on pprune:p

I feel so justified now:}:}:ouch:

[Denti]

Actually, many of the very early airplanes had steering wheels, simply because those were in use in other means of transportation as well. And wheel like yokes were in use throughout the history of aviation, especially in bombers and transport aircraft. So nothing really special about having them.

Personally i do not really care if we use a yoke or a sidestick although the sidestick has certain space advantages especially in transport aircraft where manual flying is done less than 5% of the time anyway (yes, even with flying manually up to cruising and back down from there). What i do care about is how the flight control mechanic behind the stick or yoke is designed, and i have to say i do like the boeing way there much more than the airbus one. If you could combine both the boeing flight control mechanic with a sidestick it would be great.

[Bolty McBolt]

I do miss some tactile feedback, especially knowing what the other pilot is doing. Force-feedback sidesticks would be aviation perfection to me.

After reading this thread it seems to me from an observer’s point of view the question might need to be asked in a different manner.
Many pilots prefer the current AB “dead” side stick as it allows for a much more user friendly cockpit as much of the flying does not require direct control input. The other salient point is that many prefer the tactile and visual feedback of a interconnected yoke when flying (manual or automated)

Perhaps the question should be?

Which do pilots prefer a tactile and interconnected controls with back driven throttles to represent thrust setting etc or are they happy with receiving all the flight information from the PFD ND EICAS/ECAM and seat of their pants?

My 2 cents

nb "dead stick" Is a loose term i used as the AB is spring loaded to give feel but the feel does not change with A/C speed or config etc.

[ravi30]

Sideticks was the original aircraft controller. The worlds first aeroplane the wright flyer had a sidestick. All the early generation aircraft had sidestick. Later the yoke made their appearance.. The early yoke was perfectly round just like a car wheel.
Later the yokes were shaped like half wheel. the clocked turned again when Airbus installed sidesticks 22 yrs ago on their A320 and the rest is history.

Boeing 787 design team intially made a backdriven sidestick for the 787. How ever the senior management wanted to retain the yoke because they wanted cockpit commonality with the 777.

Had Boeing installed backdriven sidestick for thier 787 they could have made new history.

[L337]

A-3TWENTY:

Those who like columns are those old fashioned minds which resist to all kinds of changes. Those which , left by themselves would be still flying open cockpits.

An utterly stupid and ignorant post.

Plenty of reasons not to like a sidestick, and most have to do with having been a trainer on the Airbus. The column has many advantages not least is I can see what the FO is trying to do, against how the aircraft is behaving. i.e. I can see the demand and the result. With an Airbus sidestick I cannot easily monitor that. Same with an engaged autopilot. With a column I can see what the AP is demanding, and can also see the result. With a sidestick that does not move you are yet another layer removed from the aircraft, and once again, pushed further out the loop.

Yes it is more comfortable, yes it is nice for many reasons, but it is not a perfect solution.

So I like a column, and I do not have an old fashioned mind, and I most certainly do not resist change because it is change, and if left to myself I most certainly would not be in an open cockpit.

Your post tells me more about you than it does about any informed discussion about the merits or not of a sidestick.

[Slasher]

Ditto L337.

The kids these days like sidesticks and computers rather
than flying an airplane for its own sake - I work with them
often enough. The replys concerning my last post says it all
and I just ignore em.

Recall the QF A330 enroute incident SIN-PER.... as you say
an example no feedback through the stick amongst other
issues.

[Slasher]

On a humorus side there was a nightstop earlyer this year
where we landed just before an impending typhoon of 60
odd knots was going to hit. The brand new kid (but with
500 hrs twin Comanche) was concerned with the banging
around of the flight controls as the passage of the typh
was to be initialy rear quartering to our parking direction.
I mentioned just to leave the park brake on to prevent
any weathercocking tendancy and the engineers will take
care of the rest.

After getting my overnight bag from down the back I
returned to the cockpit to find the proud FO had VERY
skilfuly wrapt his seat belt around his sidestick with left
aileron up/elevator down and also sugested switching on
the Blue override to add aditional security.

Christ I had to laugh at that one! :ok:

[Lotetu]

For me the it was easy to change to sidestick.

The last point was the CAT II manual landing when I would prefer controlwheel. Now after 2000 hrs on the Bus I don't feel that.

Lotetu

[RichTam]

Here is a personal experience in a race-car situation, which I think is informative: I was in the UK, was totally accustomed to right-hand drive. I had an opportunity to use the Rover / Solihull race test track, and grabbed it. Going into a low-speed hairpin turn (part of their mountain track test) from a high speed, something happened I didn't expect: with no time to think, I downshifted TO THE RIGHT, which was wrong. I finally figured it out: my subconscious was oriented in BODY-CENTRIC MODE, not in left-right mode.

Why do I mention this? I believe that center sticks/yokes are a more "natural" control (OK, I know this is subjective). Yes, side-sticks can be used well and easily, but what happens in an emergency? Are the instant control inputs OK vs. control column? Please let me know.

And this leads to a non-airline issue: the Cirrus has a side-YOKE, not a side-STICK. For this a/c, I think my example above truly applies: low and slow, in a stall going into a spin with no time to react, I believe that the natural reactions will over-control and end the flight very soon.

Please let me know your comments.

RichTam

[Clandestino]

Is sidestick the way of the futureI don't care. I have flown and enjoyed both sidestick and yoke, have no grudge against either. If I'm ever presented with type choice in my career, stick/yoke won't play a part in it.

[Lonewolf_50]

After saying something this sensible ...
I`ve flown both and I love the sidestick.

Fighters are flown in dog fights, close to the ground and other extreme conditions with sidesticks. Why airliners couldn`t?

Furthermore in a flight of 12 hours you will use it for 5 minutes max.Sometimes a lot less. Why I need a column stuck there in front of me?

More.If you have an useless column , you can`t have a very usable table.

It`s just advantages.
... why would one say something this silly?
Those who like columns are those old fashioned minds which resist to all kinds of changes. Those which , left by themselves would be still flying open cockpits. A-3TWENTY

PS:
The Comanche (RAH-66) helicopter had a side stick rather than the traditional cyclic, and it used a twist of the side stick rather than rudder pedals to control yaw.

The pilots who flew it didn't seem to have any problem with that rig.

[tasmin]

Interconnected side sticks would be my preferred configuration.
Having one hand on the side stick and the other hand on the throttles is very natural.
In cockpits with control coulombs you must make a transition (in our SOPs no later than 1000' AGL) and now fly a wheel with one hand.
Driving a car with one hand is not as safe a driving with 2 hands.
A minor drawback of the control coulomb is a tendency by a few pilots to use the CC as a car wheel on the ground to correct for side slip after landing.
Don't laugh, I have seen it in the sim many times.

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Did you guys notice it's a 3 years old thread?
No problem with keeping it alive, but just to be sure you got that before answering someone's previous post ;)

[doubleu-anker]

Ask any 10 year old what they prefer. After all they are the experts, with play station stuff.

Me? I have one joystick between my legs, so can afford to give one up. :}

[DozyWannabe]

Did you guys notice it's a 3 years old thread?
No problem with keeping it alive, but just to be sure you got that before answering someone's previous post ;)

There is a modern relevancy in that Bombardier's new C-Series airliners have also gone with a sidestick system. Their sales blurb makes the point that the FBW control system has "full pilot authority", but from a purely technical standpoint, so does the Airbus system - even with full protections active in Normal Law it will comply with the pilot's commands as best it can while remaining inside the safe flight envelope.

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

As I wrote, Dozy: "No problem with keeping it [the thread] alive".
My only concern was about people answering without knowingly doing so 3 years 'late'. ;)

[Ghost_Rider737]

I like the side stick but feel safer using a conventional yoke , especially during a cross wind landing.

Manually flown Visual approaches in an airbus are not as fun as one in a Boeing.