Getting ahead of myself

[CAVOK]

I've just found this group. Excellent reading.

I'm after some advice from the experienced out there.

I am approaching PPL (about to do solo qualifying x-country) and would like to go straight onto retractable and wobbly prop, get an IMC and buy a fastish 4 seater. The reason is that I go to Central/Southern France quite often, c/o Gatwick & BA, and would like to get there without their generous assistance, in one hop, and within the family's bladder distance. This = 150kts+ cruise speed.

Questions.

Am I trying to run before I can walk?

If I am going to go for wobbly prop and retractable ratings and IMC, would I do better to do these on the plane that I going to become friends with, even if I can't handle it when I first buy it?

Decisions, decisions.... <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[poetpilot]

Why not try before you buy? i.e. hire one, check out and see what you think.

A work colleague matey of mine almost did what you want to do.

Got his PPL last year, went and bought a Piper Dakota. (wobblyprop but welded wheels - effectively an Arrow with sticky out bits).

Check it out on <a href="http://www.g-bnyb.com," target="_blank">www.g-bnyb.com,</a> he hires it out from Goodwood/Blackbushe. He seems to be Ok on it, though thinking back to when I got my PPL I would have been a leedle apprehensive.

Important thing is to give yourself time and space to get used to it.....

[IanSeager]

To be perfectly honest it depends on your ability and on how much money/time you are prepared to invest in post PPL training. . .I'm told that at one time Lufthansa cadets had to solo on a Bonanza within 11 hours or get chopped. To be fair they had been through a selection process and so should have been talented (If the selection process worked that is). . .It is quite a big step to go from 90kt trainer to 150kt cruiser. Things will happen a lot faster and checking the met becomes even more of a serious business. Obvioulsy the IMC isn't valid in France so you'll need VFR conditions there. . .It is also worth thinking carefully about the speed that you actually need. No aircraft ever seems to go fast enough on a long trip, but you may find, depending on the length of the legs that an extra 25 knots doesn't deliver that much of an advantage in airborne time (125kts will take about 20 minutes longer than 150 kts on a 200 mile leg).. .Personally I think I would have struggled with that kind of speed and aeroplane just after my PPL.

[Fuji Abound]

All sounds sensible but do consider

BA will always offer some benefits. Firstly most singles are not equipped to deal with ice, or thunder storm avoidance. Secondly, an IMC rating will not allow you to fly IMC in France. This all adds up to commuting only being realistic if you have time to spare and a schedule that is flexible.

You will probably want to try a few aircraft before you buy and this will in turn determine whether you do your additional ratings in the one you end up in. Do consider that at first you will find a more sophisticated aircraft a handful which may put you off an excellent machine for your future purpose. Maybe therefore build your confidence on whatever is available.

Good luck

[poetpilot]

...I forgot to add (but prompted by the two foregoing comments) that my mate is finding the weather a very limiting factor on actually using the Dakota (well he did get it in September, so he shouldnt be too surprised really).

He really needs to get to IMC quickly, but as pointed out, that is of no use out of the UK.

I remember, I tried to use a Jodel (I know, not fast or complex) for business trips in the 90s, but gave up after a while (and a few scary moments & lots of hanging around waiting moments).

I like flying much more when the pressure is off.

[KitKatPacificuk]

Another thing to consider is fuel burn and payload! Once you get used to flying a complex and want to take it further afield think about how much more fuel a bigger engine will burn. A PA28 Warrior about 30 litres/hr and a PA32 Saratoga about 80 litres/hr if you lean it off! Also the PA32 can't carry the weight because the plane is too heavy to start with. Even though it's a 6 seater, it's on the limit with 4 adults and full fuel! One aircraft I would recommend is a TB20. Good fuel flow about 55-60 litres/hr and even though a 4 seater can carry 4 and full fuel at 160kts. So consider what plane because it might be the difference between non stop and one stop! Good luck! Flying Complex is great!!!

[CAVOK]

Interesting (and quick) replies.

Thoughts about suitable planes (when I can run, rather than crawl, as at present) are:

TB20 (looks v. suitable). .Beech Bonanza A36 (what a price! Still, with resale values like that, maybe better then the stock-market). .A Piper if I could work out which one - Saratoga (a bit big?) Archer (a bit slow??).

Always keen to hear opinions, biased or otherwise.

[Mister Gash]

CAVOK:- Did the same as you’re thinking an went straight from 150 into an Arrow immediately post-PPL without any problems. The numbers are just different, that’s all, and we’re not exactly talking supersonic speeds here.

Just get a thorough check-out in your desired machine, though I think that may be mandatory for you under JAR ‘differences training’ anyway.

Gash

[Bervie]

Well, all I can say that to go straight from 40ish+ hours PPL to variable pitch props, retractable undercarriage, IMC flying on a regular basis might be a bit ambitious straight away. . .Fair enough it seems a fairly straight fwd thing to do, after all its only 60 kts of an increase in cruise speed. But to be honest you are used to a fairly low cockpit workload environment and the jump might be more than you imagined. I know from experience that the jump from Bulldog (90kts) to Tucano (180-240kts), retractable etc was a big leap initially. Obviousely it calms down as you get used to it but combined with your IMC rating straight off the bat might cost you more in extra hours just getting over the learning hurdle and catching up with the aircraft, rather than waterskiing behind it.. .If I was you, and its only advice. I would get my IMC on an aircraft you are used to, then build up a bit of IF experience before blasting off cross channel in **** weather, in an aircraft you are trying to get to grips with controlling rather than flying with any situational awareness.

Sorry for rambling, I just think its a bit ambitious thats all. But best of luck with whatever you choose to do. Any flying is f*cking great fun.

[poetpilot]

...don't want to sound envious or anything, but if you have the sort of dosh to buy a complex beastie, then you should have enough dosh to locate and try a few types out, get some more training/experience in on complexes (i.e. hire em out with an instructor) before you get to Decision Day on which one to purchase.

But I'm not envious, honestly, and I wish you all the best - there are some very nice machines out there and I'm sure you'll have a great time!

[DOC.400]

Can but recommend the Robin DR400. 130kts cruise, 9 gall/hr; fixed prop and welded u/c; four adults, full fuel and 60kgs luggage, 4 hours with reserve.

See <a href="http://www.gbrnu.co.uk" target="_blank">www.gbrnu.co.uk</a> -share still available!!

DOC. .PS And now you know where my handle comes from!

[avard]

Am I trying to run before I can walk?. .i would say YES.. .You will need an IR for France.. .Simple areoplane and top dollar training = fun. .Complex areoplane and little experiance = no fun

I would spend money on training and practice and set off one hour earlier on a simple areoplane.

Thinking about it and doing it are totally different, i have just got my IMC and it scares the **** out of me when in cloud, i don't believe you can short cut experiance. . .Good luck

[CAVOK]

poetpilot, I think you are right. Youthful (well, middle-aged, actually) enthusiasm makes me want to go out and get something too soon.

I think I will take my time, get lots of instruction on different types and kick a few tyres before rushing into anything. Now all I need is instructors/experienced pilots to go with me when I get my PPL....

[poetpilot]

well, CAVOK, as I said before, try out that Dakota - the rates are good for such a type & he has a pet instructor who will sit in with you.

I got an IMC in 86 and it still scares the s**t out of me !!!!

[KitKatPacificuk]

CAVOK If you want an instructor at a good rate and you've got your own plane give me a shout. I can do differences training and IMC. I'm in the Surrey areaish too.

[LowNSlow]

It's not just the extra complexity. Will the relatively small speed gain that a wobbly prop and put away wheels gives you justify the (considerable) extra maintenance costs?

Regarding walking before running, I did my IMC, in a C150 and Twin Rating in a Twin Commanche over the same time period. The IMC rating left me feeling confident in IMC but although I felt confident in the Twin Comm, I had to work hard to think at 160 kts instaed of 85. It doesn't sound much of a difference but your nav happens twice as fast plus you anticipation time for radio calls etc is halved. It takes a bit of time and / or practice to get used to the change. If you can get in some intensive training and practice you'll probably find that it will all click quite quickly.

[Aussie Andy]

CAVOK - thanks for kicking off an interesting thread.

I just want to say that I converted to the (not very complex) Dakota within I think 10 hrs or so of getting PPL and wouldn't say it was particularly difficult. In fact, I'd say its great - go fo it! There's a few things to know about proper operation and emegency handling of Prop/MP, but not hard.

Main difference in flying it, as others have said, is getting used to the greater speed initially, e.g. remembering to slow-down before entering the circuit!

Together with my good friend "1013.25" I've done a few enjoyable trips in "the Dak" - I love it! In fact, looking forward to planned trip to Barcelona in it in May :)

Andy

[CAVOK]

AussieAndy, Thanks for the encouragement.

I think that I will keep ambitions intact but on-hold. When I get my PPL (please, lets have some decent weather!) I will try and get access to a half-way stage, i.e. wobbly prop but with sticking out legs (Dakota? Tobago? etc) to get some experience and go for my IMC. At least the fixed undercarriage should slow me down when the airplane gets ahead of me. Then I will review my comfort level and competence in a year's time.

KitKatPacificUK, I'll take you up on that when I am allowed out on my own. I need the hours and benefit of others' experience.

CAVOK

[alphaalpha]

Hi CAVOK:. .Not a lot to add, really.

My personal experience, that worked for me, was to push myself steadily. Not too fast, not too slow. I don't think it matters very much whether you start by doing X-C & foreign in an a/c you are happy with, or whether you add night & IMC ratings also in an a/c you are happy with, or you go to a complex type but stay local until you are confident with a/c and it normal and emergency procedures, then move on to more challenging weather and destinations & nav. What you should do is be challenged but confident about your ongoing experience gaining.

To say again: push yourself, but not TOO fast; use an instructor you trust and a friend who will help you as you help him/her to improve.

This way you will be happy with your flying, you will be confident, you will only rarely frighten yourself, you will learn well and you will progress. AND YOU WILL ENJOY!! Which is the most important thing.

Be safe. You know how far you can go.. .Regards.