No fatigue at EK...no, no, no, no.

[Kamelchaser]

The cabin crew have now been told they are no longer able to cite fatigue as a reason for illness.

This is how this company manages fatigue...it legislates it out of existence.:ugh:

[sheikmyarse]

Slavery!! This how this is called.
Flying EK as passenger is becoming immoral.

[Wizofoz]

You know, nothing gets up my nose quite as much as someone calling an employment practice "Slavery" (except, perhaps, comparing anyone someone doesn't like to the Nazis.)

Millions of human beings were abducted from their homes, shoved into horrific slaving ships, many dying excruciating deaths on the voyage, only to be live out their lives in poverty and humiliation, often separated from their families as they were sold like cattle, and subject to savage beatings if they transgressed.

You didn't get to give three months notice to no longer be a slave.

Immoral Sheiky? It is immoral to use the word slavery as you do, as it is completely disrespectful to the millions who endured trhe real thing.

Do you wear Reebok's or Nike's? Wear clothes from, well, just about anyone? MUCH closer to slavery than being an Emirates FA. Conscientiously objected to the rag trade Sheiky? Or just a hypocrite?

If this is true it's very bad management, and an indictment on our Cabin crew leadership.

But lets not talk complete ****e, shall we?

[motley flight crue]

WIZ....... you loser............everyone sick of you, 2000+posts,
get a life u cave dwelling hermit. As an aussie I hate the fact we are from
the same place.

[watertheflowers]

Don't be too hard on wizofoz, motley flight crue. He knows a bit about fatigue at EK as he took an SKF (sick with fatigue) day himself recently. The day wasn't totally wasted though; he made eight wizofoz posts on PPRuNe at regular intervals between 0900 and 1930.


Here's a question for the Moderators. May I propose a poll? The title would be: Is wizofoz the most tedious and boring regular poster on the Middle East forum with the possible exception of 411A? If the vote is yes then maybe wizofoz should be banned from the Middle East forum and confined to his other hangouts of Tech Log and D & G. Seems fair to me.

[Wizofoz]

Wow,

Gees, WTF your fascination with me is becoming an obsession. To take the time (at 2:41am!!) to troll my roster and posting record, just to continue you personal vendetta against me...

Well, I guess everyone needs a hobby!

Oh, and Motley-

WIZ....... you loser............everyone sick of you, 2000+posts,
get a life u cave dwelling hermit. As an aussie I hate the fact we are from
the same place

Err, yeah....

There's a use of written English to make every Aussies heart soar with pride...:rolleyes:

[Kamelchaser]

One reason I don't make a lot of posts (and this is a classic example) is because rather than discussing the topic of the post, idiots like yourselves hijack the post itself and start on your childish squabbles about who has the largest or smallest apendage!!!!!

For heaven's sake..this is about fatigue...about how management is not just ignoring what is fast becoming a critical issue, but are indeed deliberately sweeping it under the carpet by preventing cabin crew from even reporting it. Next will be flight crew. They are even issuing warning letters to pilots for calling sick (perhaps justified in some cases...but a worrying trend).

Now if you children can't join a mature and serious debate, then go someplace else. It's my thread and you're not playing with it.

[Wizofoz]

Agred, KC, It just gets on my tit when people subsitute debate and discussion with hysterical hyperbola.

As I said, if this is true it is an example of the extremely poor management that seems to be part and parcel afo Flight Attending at most airlines.

As their primary role is an operational saftey one, flight ops really needs to step in.

I for one will ASR any incident when an F/A has felt too intimidated to call fatigued.

AS WTF has kindly pointed out, the use of SKF is a saftey necessity in the current high-workload evironment.

[4HolerPoler]

Cut the personal stuff out guys - any more goes in the bin.

And no, there won't be any inane polls conducted.

Bit of mid-summer madness creeping in here.

4HP

[NZ X man]

Forum-"a place where people can exchange opinions and ideas on a particular issue; a meeting organized for this purpose."
"In ancient Rome- a public place where meetings were held."
Thorndike/Barnehart Dictionary.(old, but you get the point)
"where people can exchange opinions and ideas"

Cheers

[Bird On]

WTF, I think the point is that some like WIZ are finding it's a bit more fatiguing to work at Emirates now compared to what it was like for those who "joined" Ansett back in late 1989 flying 767s etc. ;)
Hence the use of SKFs.
Domestic ops are golden.

[Wizofoz]

BO,

You obviously weren't based in Sydney, with 80% of the flying being SYD-PER-SYD overnight for around 3 years solid.

Absolutley the most fatiguing period of my life.

[nolimitholdem]

Wiz,

You just have an answer for everything, don't you? We get it, Emirates is better than every other job/airline you ever worked for, in your eyes.

It is absolutely NOT a complete hyperbolic leap to use the word "slavery" to describe much of the conditions endured by our cabin crew. Far more than flight deck, many of them are completely constrained by the economic conditions and obligations (ie extended families) in their home countries. While there are certainly a few here for a few laughs before heading back to Sydney with a tan, more and more are coming from parts of the world where desperation is the motivation. So to remove such a basic thing as to deny someone the right to declare themself too exhausted to work, while at the same time constantly increase their workload, when they have no legitimate alternative employment options...sounds like slavery to me. Your speaking of the "three month option to leave" is just a variation of the "if you don't like it leave" bullsh#t non-argument. For many it is NOT an option.

No, they aren't chained together singing Swing Low Sweet Chariot. But to enslave is all about controlling others, and that is the clear aim here. But then, Emirates specializes in exploiting others misfortunes. I know, I know, just good business in your world.

btw, it tends to weaken your complaint about rhetoric when you go on about Nazism and sweatshops....not sure where THAT rant was going...

[joe.bloggs]

Well put Nolimit. I agree with Kamel & Sheik.

[Wizofoz]

Edited cause know what? I quit.

NLH, WTF you win. Go on with what MUST be your miserable lives if the views you display here actually reflect you attitudes. Obviously it is just not acceptable to express any view on any subject which are not doom, gloom and every thing is bad.

Please forgive me if I continue to enjoy life, I know you don't find that acceptable.

Pprune used to be a usful source of information and place where spirited debate was possible.

Now it's a wailing wall for serial whingers.

Carry on.....

[flaphandlemover]

Gentlemen, PLEASE!!!
let's bring the threat back where it belongs....

Stop fighting each other...:=

It was about Fatigue in EK and not about different opinions of different people...

I say:

I AM FATIGUED IN EK! And i still like it here.

But too much is too much!!!

And they keep pushing us... If there will be some metall bending (i really don't hope so), then at least we did make it public in PPRUNE!

No where else can we complain... right?

Safe flying

FHM

[EGGW]

Its tiring reading this thread gents. I will edit this back to a semblance of the original thread post in the morning.

EGGW

[troff]

Ya, I'm tired too, but I still like the job.
One problem that I have seen is that, although you are limited to two ULR's a month, you might be in Japan one day, back through DXB for a couple of nights then off to SFO.
Even worse, you might end up back to back at the end of one month and then do it all over at the beginning of the next.
If we could stay to "one side" of Dubai that might be better.
I don't think planning takes this into account.
T

[fluffy5]

I thought the GCAA started the process of the R.O.S.I report last year, and fatigue is one of the box's to tick. could be wrong ?
start getting on the internet to put it down, from the GCAA website.

[fatbus]

What is ROSI ? Thanks

[Instant Hooligan]

GCAA - Reporting Of Safety Incident (ROSI) (http://www.gcaa.ae/en/rosi/Pages/home.aspx)

[nolimitholdem]

I'm also interested to know the status of the FAA visit that was purported to be taking place this month (August), a requested IASA inspection of the GCAA and the UAE airlines.

Any word on that?

A good hard look at the "surveillance, licensing, and safety oversight" practices of the GCAA might be just what the doctor ordered...

IASA (http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/iasa/)

[Plank Cap]

Was beginning to think I was the only one who had ever heard of the GCAA's recently launched ROSI system, so thanks to Fluffy5 and Instant Hooligan for also bringing it up.

Started on 1st Jan this year, ROSI is the GCAA's collation centre for all Air Safety Reports across UAE operators and licence holders - that's us folks!

Is fatigue an issue at your UAE based airline? Well if you think so then the GCAA is wanting to hear from you via their ROSI system. Check online for the details, including contact phone numbers, email address and report filing method.

GCAA - Reporting Of Safety Incident (ROSI) (http://www.gcaa.ae/en/rosi/Pages/home.aspx)

[Gulfstreamaviator]

I believed that the GCAA required all operators to advise ALL operational staff of ROSI several moons ago.

Did EK not advise staff of its existance, as like CHIRP, (which any person not just UK) can input safety concerns.

glf

[Jet II]

Did EK not advise staff of its existance, as like CHIRP, (which any person not just UK) can input safety concerns.


even if they had I doubt many would use it because the difference with CHIRP is that it is supposed to anonymous.

I dont know anyone who would trust the GCAA to keep anything anonymous.. :(

[EFC 3 DAYS]

Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum is the President of the Department of Civil Aviation (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Department_of_Civil_Aviation_(Dubai)) as well as being Chief Executive and Chairman of The Emirates Group (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/The_Emirates_Group).

[Gulfstreamaviator]

I thought that NEPOTISM was banned in UAE Goverment, according to a recently released PR....

Glf

[M-rat]

Hey Wiz of Oz... you slave driving Nazi! :)
(Totally kidding... couldn't resist after the acrimonious exchange earlier...):p

Anyhoo... the meeting announcing ROSI took place on Emirates Airline property earlier this year, at the auditorium at the NC.

Emirates, who clearly must know of this initiative have said the square root of %$&# - all on the matter.

Interesting? Not really.

Don't try to pretend the GCAA really cares. They don't.

[vbrules]

The wiz clearly jumped into the property market here TOO LATE and is now justifying himself. You loser

[Townie]

Re Sheikh Ahmed......

I'm not suggesting that he couldn't hold influence in the GCAA, but can we please stop mistaking the DCA for the GCAA?

Department of Civil Aviation=Airport Operator
GCAA=Regulatory Body

There is a big difference, however, as I said I believe the relationship between Emirates and the GCAA might be a bit too cozy.

I believe there was a message floating around from BM that the EK ASR reporting procedure was adequate and the ROSI was not required to be filed. Begs the question, if it was not meant for the UAE's largest operator just who was it meant for? How much safety data could they expect to gather from the other "small" operators? If it wasn't meant for EK pilots to fill it out, it was a wasted effort really.

[Townie]

Point taken, as I said with this "family" government he could influence things.

My point was, that it seems several times in the past people have confused DCA with GCAA.

A bit pedantic I know.

[411A]

The cabin crew have now been told they are no longer able to cite fatigue as a reason for illness.


A sensible procedure.
SaudiArabian had this stipulation long ago (for a short period) when hosties started calling in 'fatigued' for no good reason...other than for the possible reason of not being able to climb out of the sack with their boyfriends/girlfriends.

Pilots should not be concerned with CC roster procedures, anyway.
If they are, perhaps reapplying as a CC member might be an alternative.

[EGGW]

Deep breadth gents, please ignore the wind up..... :ugh:

EGGW

[dubaicrew]

One really does have a stick up ones ar*e doesnt one?

Please dont belittle or stereotype CC.
Our issues and concerns with EK are just valid as the pilots'.

Fatigue is a serious issue, and a reality.
Unfortunately, i am fatigued because of the ridiculous tight rostering, unearthly times, lack of effective bidding, lack of valid swaps, constant roster changes,
add this to bullying management styles, waiter-turned managers really.

No, Am too tired to even think of a good romp, as you suggest..

[lowstandard]

411A, what was it like during the war? Your the strongest argument for retiring at 60.

EK cabin crew rosters are a concern for pilots because at the end of the day we are responsible for the overall safety of the crew and the flight.

dubaicrew, I sympathize with you 100%. I am to tired to think of a bad romp:E

[411A]

I am to tired to think of a bad romp:E

Oh, you poor dear, how very unfortunate.:ooh:

EK cabin crew rosters are a concern for pilots because at the end of the day we are responsible for the overall safety of the crew and the flight.


The mark of a junior Captain.
Whereas, senior Captains have long ago learned to rely on the cabin supervisor, to keep the back end ship shape.
Oh well, the junior types will learn....someday.:}

[sheikmyarse]

Mate or,better, dude...
What kind of racist, classist, inhuman individuals you are?
I'm amazed. Your arse licking capabilities, sicophantic patronization,
arrogance and imbecillity goes behond any expectations.
The sad part is that you are the kind of mankind scum that is just perfect for EK!
May be you feel like a mix of Chuck Yeager and George Washington but we all know that you are just being remotely controlled from the ground dude..wake up!! You are more of a George Bush like guy....
I believe you are on of EK favorite DECs .Such level of obtusity is rare!!!!!
Working for EK is becoming more and more immoral...but you juts don't know what I'm talking about, right?
All the worst..mate...sorry..dude!!

[kiwi]

Solved all my problems with 411A by putting it on my ignore list. Far less acid in my stomach these days!!!

[lowstandard]

411A

No, just the mark of a good captain.

The only other person I ever heard say "poor dear" was an elderly lady expressing sorrow for someone who missed a flight.

Since your drawing conclusions, heres one for you.

Your an old fu@#ing queen, keep your own "back end" ship shape.

Dont you have a fence to build?

[Sataybox]

As much as I HATE to admit it, he does have a point with this:

Pilots should not be concerned with CC roster procedures, anyway.


and this:

The mark of a junior Captain.
Whereas, senior Captains have long ago learned to rely on the cabin supervisor


and even this:

the junior types will learn

Regarding not getting too concerned with CC rostering:

It's not that no one cares - the simple fact is the wide extremes of competency displayed by EK CC under OPTIMUM conditions (well-rested, daytime, start of trip, etc) invariably leads to the conclusion that EK rostering and management practices, whilst nefarious and sleazy, are simply yet another roll of the dice in this sad joint.

I dream of flying with crew who, at the very least, can all understand and speak Engrish and can simply do as instructed. Pilots included, sometimes.

[777w]

There has been no such OFFICIAL E-Mail or Memo to Cabin Crew informing us that we cannot call sick based on Fatigue ! This is just another tactic /deterrent to avoid Crew from Calling Sick.
411A ...very immature sir ! Maybe its the Arizona heat ...or maybe its just you..either ways..VERY IMMATURE! :D

[helen-damnation]

Sataybox

One small, itty bitty problem with your post:

If you're the FD and you know the crew are not fit to fly, you can't let them! Because if anything goes wrong, you'll be in the $h!T. And don't expect any EK management to stand in the way of the law when it bears down on you from way up high.

The theory is great, but in practise, 411A doesn't appear to have lived in the modern litigation led society!

H-D

[Sataybox]

Helen, I agree in general BUT when the girls sign on, they've "declared" they're fit just like we have; no decision is generally required to be made by the capt.

Yes, if they subsequently inform the capt they're unfit, they should be stood down but any good purser should already be headed down that path by the time the capt hears about it.

On the other hand, you might not even hear about it. The purser often takes care of it, just as Billy-Bob has pointed out. :p


And don't expect any EK management to stand in the way of the law when it bears down on you....


Amen brother. (Or sister??)

[Semaphore Sam]

Fatigue...an issue for cockpit and CC. Realistically, the only way cockpit crew can assure CC proper rest is to insist upon proper layover facilities and time in bed enroute. Before starting a pairing, the Captain must assume the company, and CC Boss (IFS), has control, and will insist upon a properly rested crew. How can it be otherwise? Be realistic. CC must deal directly with the company, and the CC Supervisors, and their managers, before first leg. After that, at enroute facilities, the Captain can, if he/she is competent, maintain a minimum of rest for cockpit and CC. Sam

[harry the cod]

I spoke to the guy who handles the CHFR's recently to ask how things were coming along. While the number of reports are up on last year, there are still not nearly enough coming in to make a significant difference to rostering practices. Apart from some personal issues, the only other real issue being reported is fatigue, from both CC and pilots. There's a problem alright but the number of reports don't reflect the reality.

If people spent just half the time filing these type of reports as well as ASR's, instead of whinging on here, maybe something could be done about it. :hmm:

Don't rely on others to effect change. Do it yourself!

Harry

[Kittty125]

Hear, hear Harry.

As I say to anyone who brings up this issue on the line - I agree it's a problem but it's no good bleating about it if you're not prepared to file a report.

Get an ASR or CHFR into the system or stop moaning!

[411A]

If people spent just half the time filing these type of reports as well as ASR's, instead of whinging on here, maybe something could be done about it.
Don't rely on others to effect change. Do it yourself!


Yes, quite true.
However...moaning is a known PPRuNe modus operandi.
Non-productive, at best.:ugh:

NB.
At our small aircarrier, the Commander assures proper rest, and will delay the flight until this is assured.
No objection from the head shed, either.

[fiftypercentn1]

lucky you.