Age 70 for international pilots?

[md80fanatic]

The most frightening aspect of this difficult to read thread is the venom being spewed towards captains cannot be limited to posting anonymously on a forum. This obviously extends to cockpit operations, there can be no denying it. No one can be so passionate about a subject (lambourne, MAS, and the rest) then simply turn it off like a light once on duty. Unless this is a windup ..... these boys are highlighting a serious problem on the flight deck.

This overwhelming sense of entitlement, if not satiated, negatively affects job performance. This behavior should not be tolerated in a setting where hundreds of lives are at risk.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Oh am maybe these guys just like their job!


Surprise ! Surprise ! So you're finally catching on !!

[parabellum]

Whilst I'm definitely in the camp with lambourne in thinking that at 65, it's time we should give it away,


MT OW - I think most of us agree that 65 is enough but lambourne, MAS etc. are in a rage about anyone continuing past 60.

For some of us, (not USA), 65 was the deal when we first got our licence and we were robbed of five years for no good reason. In the UK at least, there is ample evidence that there is little, if any, serious deterioration between 60 and 65. One particular AME in London, also a Specialist in Aviation Medicine, invited all pilots on his books who were affected by the arbitrary reduction to age sixty to continue medicals, for free, with him until they reached 65. All the evidence was then submitted to the authorities and eventually, after many years too many, they responded, age back to 65.

Unless lambourne is simply a wind up I think he needs psychiatric help.

[obie2]

Strewth, now you've done it //.

Poor ol' Lambourne will probably cut his throat, blow himself up or self immolate when he reads that you're claiming the 5 years that he's claiming!

Still, that may not be a bad result for him or for us!!??

[Gas Bags]

I guess AMOS will soon be posting.

[TyroPicard]

In the beginning there was one pilot, and he was called Captain. Accidents happened. And lo the authorities decided to add co-pilots, and they were called F/O. The accident rate was reduced because the F/O helped the Captain to stay safe, probably because the F/O liked to stay alive.
So when ManAdaSystem says
70 years will not happen, of that I'm sure, and a few more over 60 pilots who don't need to listen to reason and then fly with their seniority into a mountain may cause a revised age limit to 60 again.that would be a major failure by an F/O.......

[Capt Claret]

I'd like to see the retirement age increased to 75+ just to see lambourne blow a gasket. :E

The hypocrisy of advocating age based retirement, as opposed to competency & medically based retirement, just to get a LHS is breathtaking! :rolleyes:

[JW411]

Actually, I think poor old 115.6 has a big problem with his own self-esteem. He tells us that he already had a command but gave it up to go back in the right seat. Perhaps he simply couldn't hack it?

On the other hand, he was kind enough to give up his left seat so that someone less fortunate than himself could have it. For that he definitely deserves our grateful thanks.

[seat 0A]

This debate has been very heated so far. Understandably so, because the finances involved are quite considerable.

If you look at the issue of retirement age from a professional point of view, one could argue very well that retirement should only be based on ability to perform your duties. Quite clear.

However, within the framework of a single company / seniority list situation things might be viewed differently. Then the discussion can be rightfully viewed both professionally and industrially. Then it becomes part of the whole scope of labour agreements for that particular pilot group.
Almost like the balancing of a new contract: "who gets the most of the gains this time around?".

My view is that these discussions about mandatory retirement age can only be successfuly resolved within the framework of a single CLA, by balancing the consequences for the "angry young men" and the "old farts". :)
Unfortunately, due to the way the European directive on age discrimination was introduced into national law in Britain, this is no longer possible it seams.

In other countries the debate is much more an industrial one and therefore resolvable within the scope of a CLA.

[skadi]

@parabellum
One particular AME in London, also a Specialist in Aviation Medicine, invited all pilots on his books who were affected by the arbitrary reduction to age sixty to continue medicals, for free, with him until they reached 65. All the evidence was then submitted to the authorities and eventually, after many years too many, they responded, age back to 65.

Are there any publications about this available?

Thanks

skadi

[Che Xindamail]

Lambourne and Mana Ada Sistem, you two collectively provide enough material for an entire conference on psychology.

Gentlemen, you both come across as being one can short of a six-pack.

The worry for flight safety is not those of us who actually enjoy the job and want to work past 60 with the risk of slower reflexes, but guys like yourselves who slipped through the psychological aptitude tests.

[seat 0A]

.......Or we could just continue bashing eachothers heads in :ugh::ugh:

[mary meagher]

As a gliding instructor I have found that the learning curve once the candidate is over the age of 60 is more like a plateau. Also, if the aspiring pilot has been a captain of industry before retiring, he usually has an inflated idea of his ability.

At my age, 77, I do have trouble remembering names. What was the name of that irritable young man who wants to enhance his own advancement by removing any wise old captains who are blocking his progress? I hope he never has the chance to fly my family! Too much anger to be safe.

If a pilot has been flying consistently for years and years and kept abreast of developments, it would be inappropriate to require retirement before 65. After that, well.....
we've all got to step down some time. Now, where did I put my bus pass?

[parabellum]

Skadia - Please check your PMs.

[protectthehornet]

IF the USA raises the age to collect social security to 70, then there should be no LEGAL reason to prohibit flying to age 70.

Now, I am in favor of testing to make sure you are goodpilot

[lambourne]

IF the USA raises the age to collect social security to 70, then there should be no LEGAL reason to prohibit flying to age 70.

Now, I am in favor of testing to make sure you are good pilot...but that should be required for all ages..

Hmmm. Let's see.... Double posting without realizing you did so.....Might you be one of our fine elder airman?:D:ok: Nice one chief! :ouch:

Double posting is the equal to driving around with one turn signal on...for miles and miles.

[Squawk7777]

I wonder if *certain* EU airlines will also eliminate their maximum age requirement for direct-entry candidates.

I think not!

[Fangio]

Glad to hear that you are still alive lambourne, are you writing from the Coronary Care Unit or the asylum? I have missed your rants.

Have a nice flight!!

[protectthehornet]

Iambourne

regarding the double post. isn't that akin to double checking things? in aviation, that is a positive thing.

as many real airline pilots will know, real pilots are CHEAP and I can't afford to buy a computer that isn't falling apart at the seams. so I will remove one post (as the second was a computer glitch, unfixed till today).

And if I am the guy who says: verify that clearance, maybe it will save your bacon someday.

I don't know you, but I can tell that you are a spoiled little brat who has not paid his dues to either our profession or the sky.

don't watch out for me and our profession, but you better watch out for the sky.

[lambourne]

regarding the double post. isn't that akin to double checking things? in aviation, that is a positive

And that left turn signal is that you will EVENTUALLY turn left. Using your logic, you would be so conservative to fly with the gear down. That way you reduce the chance of forgetting to lower it, correct? Maybe you requesting twice for verification all the time is because you are too old to keep up with the rest of the crew. When everyone else is hearing and complying without duplicitous transmissions from atc, it might indicate YOU are the problem :sad::oh:

Computer glitch or operator error? You do sound like most of the gummers I fly with. No way the FMC entry was your fault. It had to be the computer. :)

[poina]

Hey Lambourne,
Thanks for the Gulfstream link, 36000 hrs and no altitude check anywhere, nice.
Put a link on this thread if you get a chance.

[PA-28-180]

"Maybe you requesting twice for verification all the time is because you are too old to keep up with the rest of the crew......."

Hey lambourne! What part of 'CREW' don't you get? REALLY?? :ugh:


crew
1    /kru/
–noun
1.
a group of persons involved in a particular kind of work or working together

PLEASE....explain to all us 'gummers' what part of this don't YOU understand?
As previously stated...YOU, will one day be US! :eek:

[lambourne]

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/aab0606.pdf


Two old coots. One good airplane.

Capt age 67
F/O age 62

[lambourne]

Hey lambourne! What part of 'CREW' don't you get? REALLY??

If part of the crew can't keep up or perform then they don't need to be part of the crew. The crew is only as good as it's weakest link. The over 60 pilots ARE the weakest link. Hornet is proving that with each post.

[poina]

Hornet, send me what you were smoking when you wrote your last few posts!

[protectthehornet]

lambourne

I prefer to fly with the gear up and have always managed to put it down at the right time. us older guys seem to know that in order to get normal performance, especially in second segment climb with engine out, the gear better be up.

I saw that two identical messages were posted and as I was correcting it, my computer crashed. I use MAC OS 9.1 and a poor browser called, ICAB. It frequently crashes. Why don't I get a better computer, capable of better browser...I'm cheap. I paid 40 US Dollars for the used computer.

I am 54 years old. I've seen good pilots and bad pilots. Age never seemed to matter. I still recall the ferry flight when the two younger pilots managed to crash a perfectly good plane horsing around (pinnacle, two engines out, no relight , I think we on pprune called it the DUDE EFFECT)

Poina, I don't smoke anything and never have. So, why don't you send me your name, address and I'll have some friends drop by and you will pee in a little cup.

[Spooky 2]

Lambourne, how about every FedEx MD11 accident that was crewed by guys in their late forties and early fifties? As a matter of fact how about every frigging accident in the last thirty years that had age 60 or less pilots in the seats? I don't think age 70 is a good idea and I'm not sure where this idea even originated, but your arguments along with your personality are both pathetic. Get over it and get over yourself while your at it.

[411A]

your personality are both pathetic.

The slight problem is....lambourne is still a co-pilot, why?
Couldn't cut the mustard as a Captain, more than likely.
These types are usually all the same...losers.
IE: the company knows it...and for these types, bit*hing and moaning from the RHS is modus operandi.
Experienced Captains (and airline managements) have seen it all before....nothing new.
The poor babies, what a shame...:rolleyes:
Boo Hoo...:{:{

[Spooky 2]

411A, I believe he says that he has flown narrow body Captain at some point in his career. I bet a month with him would put one completely over the edge.

[p51guy]

We only know what lambourne says he did. He seems too immature to be a captain of anything. I still think he is a teenager who has a dad that flies. That is what he sounds like. He would be thrown out of my cockpit with his attitude. His total disrespect for his captain would not continue his employment in any airline, union or not. Why doesn't some moderator get him off? He is a kid.

[WhatsaLizad?]

lambourne,

What most don't realize is the slide that begins with everybody that they have no control over. I beleive most also don't realize the signs as they are subtle and isidious.

I'm currently in the left seat with a major US carrier and frankly haven't seen the problems I saw with the RHS as I saw for years flying with guys in the LHS. I did see one however. Late 50's FO who was noticably slower than every FO I've ever flown with, including judgement.

I also have flown with many in their late 50's who were Captains at my airline before the law changed. Many were in great shape mentally and physically, some like 20 year olds. Others had only one attribute, mental or physical that was in good shape. One was a age 60+ gadfly who railed against the law that didn't change before he was retired. He ran marathons, and ran the distance of two of them home from the airport in two days after his retirement flight to make a point. his mind and judgement was going to mush for the last couple of years, and was a threat to safety. Problem was, when he was reported, he might have to take a simulator check at 10:00 am and do a great job for 2 hours. He might even fly with a Check Airman after a complaint. He might suck it up and do a good job on that flight. On the 3rd day of the next trip on long day, his brain was back to mush.

I also had experience flying with more than a few 60+ guys in business jets. Same experience. a few did good, probably will remain sharp until 90. Most started the slide. The biggest problem was with fatigue. Most would do fine with a middle of the day sim check or evaluation, but after several legs after 13 hours at 3 am, most became worthless. Only one of them had the sense to look at me and say, "I'm not 25 anymore, this snowy night NDB approach into a short runway is too much, do you mind flying it?" Fine with me, the crew was now on the same page.

Others thought they were Bob Hoover because he was the same age. I still can't explain why I am alive today writing this because of one 63 year old that thought he was ok, just as I read from many of the posters here. I've flown with enough to get a good enough statistical sample for me and is now an issued if I'm faced with putting my family onboard.

When I read the Houston GII crash, I shook my head. I'd been there cleaning up the mess of some goat at 4 am after we got 2 hours of sleep. In that crash, both were in advanced years. If any of you don't think that was a possible major factor in the accident, you are delusional.I'm not against flying past age 60 for financial or upgrade reasons. that
argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. I'm against it for safety reasons.

As of today, there isn't a single check in place to counter the slide with age until it's well beyond safe. Checkrides and medical checks don't cut it and can be fooled by someone having a good day and then it's months off flying thousands of people.

good day

[poina]

Well said Lizad,
Sure, I know guys in their 60's who could kick out the miles and bury me when I was in my 40's, but that is an exception.
The same with mental acuity, there will be a few who are dedicated enough to overcome age related slowdown simply because they realize they aren't at the top of their game anymore. But the vast majority are relying on past experience and belief that any future decision will be handled as it was in the past.
PS Hornet, I retired at 56 with my bucket full. If you seem to think you have the pull to order a urine test for me, come on over, I'll pee on your hand!

[protectthehornet]

poina...what are YOU smoking?

[Bullethead]

On the subject of lambourne, you guys are giving him far more attention than he deserves, ignore him completely and he will go away and annoy someone else.

Regards,
BH.

[poina]

Oh come on hornet, was I playing too rough?
Anyhoo, are you saying cognitive "the process of thought" abilities improve with age?

[protectthehornet]

I truly think that we don't fully understand the process of the mind, especially in terms of flying.

in my 50's , I wouldn't go out on overnights, I would concentrate on being well rested for the next day. lambourne might be out screwing a FA (and maybe not female in his case) and be tired...he might miss a few things the next day.

I do think that older pilots somehow know how to stay out of trouble. And that's a heckuva thing to do.

[parabellum]

Just remind me, what was the combines age of the two pilots that flew (and stalled) a twin turbo prop approaching Buffalo?

[WhatsaLizad?]

Hornet. Good job, you keep yourself rested and healthy for the next days flying. I found some Captains doing the same over my last two decades flying, most of that time in the right seat.

I can assure you from that time flying with many Captain's as well as the additonal FO, i'd give the Captains the nod for doing the most stupid @#$%.

I've found myself without a pulse on my fellow Captain's performance after moving to the left seat. I can assure you and others that if I have lost that insight in a little less than three years, those here in the left seat for a decade or more of constant flying with the same crews have little insight to thier fellow Captains.

I've seen former "stud" pilots now old men brag about their new layover girlfriend. Of course she's hot they'd say, then she shows up and she's a pig. Same goes for bragging about their golf game. Out on the links, they suck and hold the score card two feet from their face to read it. Others were also quite pompous with their flight command, but not contribution to the seismic research from their landings. Yes kids, there are 411A clones out there. The Petri has overflowed a few times over the years :yuk:

Getting old sucks at some point.

[WhatsaLizad?]

Just remind me, what was the combines age of the two pilots that flew (and stalled) a twin turbo prop approaching Buffalo?

Young. Being a dumbarse in an aircraft is lethal at any age.

[olster]

I think 65 is enough for being an airline pilot/captain.Let's face it guys,it has to end somewhere and sometime.If you haven't made the pot of gold by then you haven't been too prudent.The money argument is always compelling and surprisingly while heading for grizzled veteran status myself(where did the time go?) I would not relish flying beyond 65.

atb

[RetiredF4]

On the subject of lambourne, you guys are giving him far more attention than he deserves, ignore him completely and he will go away and annoy someone else.

Regards,
BH.
Well said, dont feed the trolls.
But one last comment, i'm sure he is ex military, was unhappy there too and a shame for the outfit.
Franzl

[rubik101]

I wonder just how long lambourne has had this fixation with teeth and gums? I suppose he'll be quite happy to be referred to as a 'gummer' when he passes 60, assuming he passes 60 of course.
The issue is not the number of years attached to your CV, it is simply your ability to do the job required. If your health and mental dexterity are adequate to perform the task, then get on with it.
I'm quite certain that there are stastistics to show that suffering a heart attack at the controls of your aircraft age 60+ is no more likely than the F/O collapsing of a stroke or acute food poisoning, hence the raising of the retirement age.
If bile is a requirement for a happy and fulfilling life in the RHS of lambourne's airline then he should continue to enjoy his work well into his 60s.
I'm glad I don't have to fly anywhere withing the USA if the guy doing the poling is in that state of mind when he's sat alongside a 'gummer'.

[lambourne]

Too bad you fell below the Mendoza Line of pilots. A iife in the minors is obviously a difficult pill for you to swallow.

[poina]

parabellum,
if you want to see stupidity in action go back a page and check out the gulfstream link and see the skill level of 2 elderly airman.

[ExSp33db1rd]

This is ridiculous, it has become a personal pissing contest and the thread should be stopped.

Those of us with any sense, or integrity, have better things to do, whatever age.

Goodbye.

[flown-it]

Sad to see such bitterness clouding these pages and detracting from what could be a great discussion on how to create a level playing field on which all able bodied pilots can ply their trade.

I was major PO'ed when I lost my Check Airman job due to downsizing.

Mrs. F-I, PO'ed at my attitude posed the following question.

What is the definition of bitterness?

No idea! Quoth I.

It is when you drink the poison and wait for the other guy to die.:ugh:

Seems to me there are several on this thread who would do well to think on that!

[ManaAdaSystem]

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/424862-spitfire-crash.html

[ManaAdaSystem]

The point is this:

By the looks of it there seems nothing wrong with the landing gears and the cockpit seems to be intact in which case the crash should be survivable.

The pilots age, 68, may indicate a heart attack e.g. was the cause.

The heart attack is speculation, the age is not.

[ManaAdaSystem]

It remain to be seen of he died in a Spitfire crash, or if he crashed a Spitfire and died. He had 30000+ hours if I got the numbers correct.

As the number of over 60 (not to say over 65) pilots are low compared to the below 60 group, every time a dinosaur kills himself, or himself + 150 passengers, the age factor should be examined very closely.

[max_cont]

I can play that game. :E

The UK
2007, 40% of passengers killed or seriously injured – meaning lost limbs, paralysis, brain injury and other life-changing injuries – were in a car driven by a young driver

Yep the stats don’t lie. If you guys can’t drive a car safely when you’re on terra firma, why should we trust you to fly an aircraft in a complex environment?

BTW, a young driver is one classed as 25 or less.

[costamaia]

I'm a GA pilot and wish to apologize for intruding, but I'm amazed at some of the posts I've read in this thread.
Flying is my passion, and professionally I'm a 52 yo surgeon and professor of surgery in an University Hospital.
The bottomline in both professions is SAFETY, centered on PAX or patient.
Both in the air and in the OR, I've always considered safety depending on proficiency, strict adherence to rules, be it protocols or SOP, and physical and mental capability to perform.
But most of all, I deeply believe it's far beyond individuality and should be centered on TEAMWORK. Flight safety is, in my opinion a CREW thing and the team cohesion should be the ultimate goal.
It should, then, depend on respect, willingness to teach and learn, keeping an open mind to other's opinions, irrespective of their age, but bearing in mind that what we loose in the gesture (physical or mental) is gained in experience throughout the years.
It's also about letting go of our egoes and keeping the door open not to hold back sharing and criticism when needed.
The posts I've been eagerly reading in this thread sometimes appear to tell the opposite, and diminish the highest standards of the "pilot profession", that I so deeply admire and try to reproduce in my surgical teams.
As in surgery, age per se should not be regarded as a limiting factor, as long as the other criteria are present and verified.
Thanks and fly safe

JCM

[Regulation 6]

costamaia

Excellent post Sir - thank you

Now - can the rest of us stay objective - please!

6

[AnthonyGA]

Perhaps I can inject a bit of hard science into this debate.

Correlation is not causation. In other words, just because you see a link between A and B does not mean that A causes B, or that B causes A.

There is a correlation between increasing age and physical deterioration and disability. However, age alone doesn't cause these.

The correlation exists for aircraft as well as people. The older an aircraft is, the more likely it is to fail. However, no regulation that I'm aware of requires aircraft to be scrapped beyond a certain chronological age. Should all DC-3s be declared un-airworthy because of their age? It's exactly the same question that exists for aging pilots.

Currently, DC-3s can continue to fly as long as they are certified airworthy, and age doesn't enter into it. Is there a reason why this should not also be the case for pilots? If a pilot passes all the tests, why should he be forcibly retired just because of age? If the tests don't prove him competent, then the tests need to change.

If you start assuming that age is synonymous with incompetence, then should you extend this to other correlations that haven't been proven to be causation? For example, black people have a much higher incidence of severe hypertension than white people. Should black pilots be denied medicals because their race is correlated with higher incidence of hypertension? Or should black pilots simply be tested using the same criteria as white pilots, and then be issued medical certifications if they pass the tests, irrespective of race?

Women tolerate high accelerations much better than men. Should men be denied medical certification for flying fighter airplanes because their sex is correlated with a lower tolerance for high Gs? Or should both men and women be tested using the same criteria, with anyone passing the tests being allowed to become a pilot?

Be careful what you wish for.

[lambourne]

Currently, DC-3s can continue to fly as long as they are certified airworthy, and age doesn't enter into it. Is there a reason why this should not also be the case for pilots?

There is an excellent reason why your comparison of the DC-3 to humans is completely flawed. A machine wears, it doesn't age. Aging and wearing are two completely different animals. A machine does not process brain. A machine doesn't know if it is operating during daylight or dark and does not cope with circadian rhythms.

If you take your comparison of a DC-3 it is extremely flawed. There are not too many DC-3 flying that contain 100% of their original parts. In fact if you compare the engine to the heart of the airplane I suspect there is not ONE DC-3 flying on its original engines. If it is then it would have had them overhauled many many time. Do that to a person and you lose your medical.

For arguments sake, say you took a new DC-3 off the assembly line brand new in 1935. You put that airplane in a hangar and don't fly it, but you maintain it in new condition. No corrosion, keep the engines pickled and it in like new condition until today's date. That airplane is 85 years old. In this case the airplane would meet those performance specs from flight manual spot on. The airplane/machine doesn't know age so it has the same performance at 0 years as it does at 85 if maintained in like new condition.

Now we take an 85 year old man. He has maintained good health and you ask him to run a 40 yard dash in the same amount of time as he did in his teens (remember machines don't age so to compare we will take the theorized optimum performance age of adults). He is not going to be able to run as fast in his mid 80's as he did in his 20's. Heck most of the gummers I fly with can't find their car in the employee lot after a 6 day trip.

A human is a continuously operating entity. A machine like an airplane is started and stopped. Machines can be completely shutdown and rebuilt with NEW parts from the factory. Humans not so much and the aging process for humans and machines is very different.

65 in the US was only about money. The senator (Ted Stevens) that backed the legislation to push age 65 through on a rider to a bill was forced out of office due to a government indictment for misdeeds and the coup de' grace is that he was killed in an airplane crash last month by an over 60 pilot. Sometimes there is justice.

[411A]

Sometimes there is justice.
Not for... lambourne.
The old timers control the process, and if they lobby hard enough (and I suspect they will) age 70 is within reach, in a few years.
Even many younger pilots seem to like the present age 65 agenda, as wages have stagnated and company funded pension plans at some carriers have....gone away.
In short, there is nothing much lambourne can do about it, except of course, bit*h and moan.

[lambourne]

The old timers control the process, and if they lobby hard enough (and I suspect they will) age 70 is within reach

Hey Mendoza, since you are a contract whore that has had to nomad his career at s*&^ box operations in the rectum of the earth. Go ahead and fly til you croak. You are not relevant to this conversation. If your flea bag company wants to let you fly the unwashed to unwanted places then go ahead. Someone has to haul the trash, might was well be YOU.

Interesting that you could not land a job with a reputable US company over the years. With your age you would have been prime for some of the serious hiring booms that occurred over the years. You like to talk about pensions for the the legacy pilots but you speak out your arse. While the A-plan was terminated at most of the US carriers the B-funds remain intact. In fact the pilots that are hanging on should have significant amounts of money in their B-funds. But the freaking geniuses have some terrible investing skills. They know better than the fund manager and tend to either make poor choices with their own best knowledge or borrow money from the account to buy a Corvette (yes, last guy I flew with did that, :mad: moron)

The good news for you 411 or should I say mendoza, is that I have enough in my B-fund now to retire at 60. Hell I can even go at 55. That is the best part. I don't define myself by what I do and walking away and living my life with a tidy sum is good for me. Of course by the time I retire I am sure you will be taking a dirt nap. Hasta La Vista Mendoza.

[johns7022]

This is a conversation relegated to the same place where CRM lives, where you hire 200 hour pilots, why Airbus tails come off....uniquely airline, uniquely union....

I guess it's too much to ask that the best pilots get the job....

It's all moot...chief pilots will either keep their buddies in the jobs, or hire marsh mellows they can control.

[hawker750]

I think lambourne has a very valid point, albeit I do not think his prestentation of it does him any credit whatsoever.
1 am 62 and I agree whole heartally with no 2 over 60's in the cockpit together, regardless of experience or how many marathons we can run. We have the experience but no longer the stamina for long nights. The rule in Europe for Public Transport is this, is it the same in the States?
For many years the G111 crash at Houston has been used by my company for CRM (or rather the lack of it) training. This crash was a pure CRM issue. I have noticed as a check pilot that older pilots can sometimes dump CRM and tunnel vision when a confusing scenarios occurs. The other CRM issue highlighted by this crash is the unsafe practice of crewing 2 Captains together or even worse a Captain and the Chief Pilot. The safest crew is a Captain (MAX 65) and an experienced, polite and competent F/O (pref under 40). I say competent because I have flown with a few who are not, whether it be ability, attitude or both.
Lambourne very rudely points out the limitations of older Captains, I think we should remind him of some of the worse habits that we older ones have had to put up with.
The worst one for me was the steely young thing that thought doing a cross wind landing involved using into wind rudder and downwind aileron. Wow, that was fun during the resultant go-around.When quizzed the answer was "I can never remember which way it is"!
Lambourne, I think it is time to wind your neck in and get on with whatever job you have and perform in the cockpit in a professional CRM manner. From your rants here I am not sure you are capable of doing that. But as far as 70 as the age for pro pilots is concerned I am with you. If they want to stay flying to pay for the 4th wife and kids let them be 20,000 ft plus relief pilots, not the guy punching the buttons in the busy TMA

[411A]

Hell I can even go at 55.
Even better...I'm quite sure he will not be missed.:D

[lambourne]

Mendoza (411A) at least I can retire. Unlike you, forced to beg a government entity to allow you to hang around like a dingleberry. Glad my life is not dependent on someone buying off on a "old man" law. Of course as the resident town bike of aviation you must be used to waiting to turn your next trick. Eventually you'll run out of alleys to ply your trade.

In the meantime I will enjoy pimping you old coots on every mistake you make in and out of the cockpit. Which by the way you Gompers give me plenty of material.

[ZimmerFly]

With apologies to our Antipodean Cousins :E

lambourne appears to be like the "Well Balanced Australian"

A chip on both shoulders :E

[TimeOnTarget]

Boy, it sure is getting nasty around here! Can't you guys play nice?

Let us cut to the chase. The medical certification in the USA is a joke. My airline is full of clinically obese pilots. I am not exaggerating! We have pilots flying who are 100 lbs overweight. The truth is that many pilots would fail a real flight physical. But in this day of political correctness and zero personal responsibility, there is always the threat of law suits.

Most local FAA Doctors develop personal relationships with their patient/pilots and they don't want to threaten a man's livelihood. I understand that, but the result is a watered down hypocritical situation. It is just a fact of life.

soap box

[Soave_Pilot]

why would you still want to be in the cockpit at 70??

Go fishing or something... just saying.

[p51guy]

I agree, he will not be missed. He must have had a frightening childhood.

[p51guy]

He must be all kinds of fun on a layover. Why is he still allowed on this forum! People have been thrown off for a lot less.

[protectthehornet]

lambourne, you are good at looking things up...will you find out how old the pilots (plural) were on the flight that just crashed in china (EMB190 overshoot).

Please post.

And to the rest of you.

Do you recall a Western Airlines (the only way to fly) and a CRM problem that lead to a DC10 landing on a closed runway in Mexico? for some reason I think lambourne must be the spitting image of the copilot on that one.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

lambourne maybe the best way for you to demonstrate the superiority of young pilots over us older ones is to get into an airplane with one of us and we can each demonstrate our airplane handling skills with an independent observer scoring our abilities.

If you are interested I am easy to find as I use my real name here and am quite comfortable with having you visit me and show me your superior skills.

[Gummer Bump]

Count me in after Chuck please

GB (63)

[VONKLUFFEN]

Lamb will become old someday ( do you know that Lamby? ). But probably he :=wont have anyone around, not even his family. Can you imagine what kind of Senior he will be? Based on his Junior comments he is already not worth the time...:yuk:
He is now training himself to be alone, so when the future reaches him he will be use to it.
Now lets go back and have a mature conversation. Send the kids to play in the mud.
V 50

[p51guy]

PTH, you got my curiosity up so pulled up the Western 2605 DC10 crash at MEX in 79. The captain and fo were both talked to individually because of rivalry earlier in the month and both sugar coated the problem. The FA said they had a heated argument when she went up so they shouldn't have been flying together. It is hard to do your job properly when you are that angry. Leave your anger at home or call in sick. Because you are.

[hawker750]

Re: Lambourne's attitude

Can a computer wizard please trace this guys real name because his employer really needs to be made aware of the sort of dangerous CRM liability they are employing. Moderator, I think it is your duty to do so in the interests of flight safety. I get the feeling he is wishing for a serious incident to happen so he can point a a very grubby finger.

[Spooky 2]

P51Guy, can you point me to the exact source for your information regarding the WAL DC10 crew?

[sharpshooter41]

Hawker750:=

No, that's not the way to go. Your age as mentioned makes me wonder if you are an advocate of raising the age to 70.

Maybe lamb... way of putting his point of view across has rubbed a lot of people the wrong way; but do stop and ponder whether your reflexes (mentally,physically) are the same as when you were, let's say in your 30's.

Not all human beings are the same when they cross 60. Some have maintained themselves well and can give a person half their age a run for their money. However, a large percentage of 60+ have a number of physical and mental ailments which make them, if not dangerous at least unfit in today's all glass cockpits.

In the past there were not too many Cat II and Cat III landings being made. Today we regularly fly into such airfields. And remember we expect the pilots to safely get us on the ground at 2 am in the morn.

So be honest and say that you will be comfortable sending your family in the middle of the night in weather with a crew which comprises of 60+ pilots. In previous posts many have talked about the 60+ passing the medical and simulators not exactly on merit. And a Cat II done in the simulator at 10 am when you have a had a comfortable sleep the night before, is quite different from one done at 2 am in the real thing.

Don't shoot the messenger.:=

[poina]

I noticed that not ONE of you advocating for an increase to 70 has responded to the G-3 debacle lambourne posted. Hit a little too close to home did it?

[max_cont]

SS41 what are you talking about?

A cat II or III is the easy part of the sim at any time of the day.

When did you last do a for real, honest to goodness cat IIIB with an RVR at 75m?

I think I have completed around three genuine LVO’s in 21 years of airline flying based in the UK and operating globally. Even then, only one was a genuine 75m. The rest were because it was below cat I minima by a couple of hundred meters. It’s hardly steely eyed heroic stuff of legend.

Modern flight decks with all the situational awareness aids and multiple redundancies built into the aircraft are exactly where older pilots need to be.

A single crew ex war bird with over 1500 horses up front...now that’s a different matter.

[hawker750]

Sharpshooter
Always best to aim before you shoot, but I guess you will learn that with a bit of age amd maturity. If you read my post 16:53 yesterday I completely agreed with lambourne's point.70 is too old, and between you and me 65 is pushing it in some cases. I even cited the G111 crash as proof.
It is not lambourne's flying ability that is being questioned, it is his ability to operate as part of a crew safely in an enviroment that he is not happy with. I really feel he is better of flying a single crew aircraft for a while until he grows up.

[p51guy]

spooky2, I was googling Western 2605 and dozens of sites showed up, one mentioning the chief talking to each of them about their differences. I can't recall which one showed the conflict. It took a while just to find that. I never could find a final report. MEX never released the tower tapes but the cvr indicated they were cleared to the wrong runway. Pretty typical of Mexico.

[JW411]

hawker 750:

"It is not lambourne's flying ability that is being questioned......."

Can you give us complete reassurance from personal knowledge that this is indeed the case?

I still think he is where he is because he failed to cut the mustard somewhere along the line and that is why he is where he is.

Very bitter and twisted and a danger to aviation.

[hawker750]

JW411
Quote: Very bitter and twisted and a danger to aviation.

Perhaps I should have said that there is no evidence of a lack of flying ability but plenty of evidence that he is a danger in a multi crew enviroment. I think we agree with one another.
Perhaps he is a failed command course type; who knows, unless he is brave enough to reveal himself

[p51guy]

If his daddy is a pilot going through what he says he is maybe he is at the teenage maturity level he portrays. No one knows if he even has a pilots license. His daddy might have told him his troubles and the son knows enough to sound like an airline pilot. I have never talked to an airline pilot this immature. Close, but not this bad.

[costamaia]

Spooky

Pls try:
Landings: Reviews: The Black Box - The Anatomy of a Crash (http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi?pass*183478603!mtd*40!ref*www.landings.com/_landings/Reviews-Opinions/!pg*black-box.html)

Regards
JCM

[protectthehornet]

I've seen plenty in aviation. And when I see something that could grow into a problem, I am morally obligated to speak up. I wrote one letter to appropriate people some three weeks before a crash , that could have been prevented. happened. My words then would have prevented the crash, but were not heeded.

I sense something in the realm of CRM and lambourne ...and I must speak up. I sense that lambourne would not speak up if something was wrong, to show how addled his gummer captain is. The trouble is some innocent might die.

so, I've spoken up. I've used the Western deal as an example.

no matter which captain I have served, no matter how much I didn't like them, I would speak up if they were going to screw up badly.

[411A]

I noticed that not ONE of you advocating for an increase to 70 has responded to the G-3 debacle lambourne posted.
That is because, it was not a 14CFR121 flight, nor a 14CFR135 flight, but...a ferry flight conducted under 14CFR91 (by a 14CFR135 operator).
No bearing whatsoever to the discussion, here, regarding scheduled airline transport ops.

I expect you fail to notice the difference, poina....no surprise.:rolleyes:

And, just for your very limited knowledge, poina, 14CFR135 and 14CFR91 ops are conducted on a regular basis, by Captains seventy years of age, or older, in Gulfstream aircraft.
Just last week I met one, 73 he is, and still sharp as a tack.
The co-pilot seemed sharp as well, about age 35, or so.

I would suggest that you do not comment on what you don't know about, personally.:rolleyes:

[p51guy]

If the captain pissed me off I always got even. If it was embarrasing I let him do it, if it was a safety issue I didn't. We were holding for SJC one day and approaching minimum fuel with reserve to alternate with SJC right at minimums. Our alternate was down so it took a lot of coaxing to get him to divert to SMF. All the SFO area airports were below minimums and SMF was decreasing. I said if SJC closes and we miss everybody is going to SMF and we don't have any fuel to hold. I said Lets go now. He did and we had a ton of airliners landing behind us. SJC went below minimums when we could have done the approach. Asshole captains need to be punished but do not compromise safety.

[AnthonyGA]

So be honest and say that you will be comfortable sending your family in the middle of the night in weather with a crew which comprises of 60+ pilots. Yes, I'd be comfortable. No hesitation at all.

Flying a large transport-category aircraft is not the same as a dogfight. I value experience and knowledge more than quick reflexes.

Indeed, while younger people have faster reflexes, they also need faster reflexes. It's not unreasonable to say that anyone who needs fast reflexes to get out of a tight situation probably lacked the experience necessary to avoid that situation in the first place.

I recall a motorcycle instructor once who told me not to bother putting my hand over the brake lever while passing through an intersection. He pointed out that, if I'm so uncertain of the situation that I need to be poised to hit the brakes, I'm already in a dangerous situation that I should have avoided in the first place. Upon reflection, I had to agree with him. The safe motorcyclist/pilot does not depend upon reflexes to help him compensate for his mistakes and oversights—he simply avoids mistakes and oversights to begin with. Prevention is better than cure.

There is evidence to indicate that many airline passengers prefer that the captain have a bit of gray hair. Apparently they recognized that flying an airliner is not physically demanding so much as it is intellectually demanding. There are lots of accidents that never occur because an experienced pilot was fully aware of the situation and avoided ever getting into circumstances that would allow an accident to occur. At the same time, there are lots of dead pilots who tried to compensate for their lack of situational awareness with fast reflexes, and it didn't work.

Oh, and I'm way under 60 years of age, so it's not a matter of personal bias.

[goldfish85]

I'd like offer the example of a crew with a combined age of 54 the Pinnacle FL410 debacle. Captain age 31 and F/O age 23.

Personally, I'd rather be in the back with a couple of 65 year olds up front. Even a couple of 70 year olds.

I'd like to call everyone's attention to the on-going study on aging pilots are Stanford. It would seem that the top pilots keep on trucking, while the bottom pilots really lose their ability.

However, when I turned 70, I decided I would no longer carry anyone in the airplane unless the right seater could land.

The goldfish

[Spooky 2]

P51 & Costamaia I agree that the crew was the major contributor to this accident. I have flown with all three of the cockpit crew and in particular my experience with Capt. Gilbert extends through the DC6B, L188 and the B707/720. The other two crew members had flown with me while I was flying Capt. I have also flown with this FA after the accident and it was obvious that it had taken it's toll on the young man. None of this makes me qualified to quantify the cause of the accident other than to say the the FA's imagination overflows in the posting, The Anatomy of a Crash. In addition I know all of the pilots who investigated accident. There is no solid evidence that Capt. Gilbert has created an "atmosphere of henious hostility" on the flight deck and thus the crash ensued. Also just for the record Capt. Gilbert was not a Safety Pilot. I'm not aware of any such position at Western at the time, or since.

As for the F/O being up for 40 hours? If so he should have called in sick. He was a commuter from Seattle so maybe that affected this judgement call just as another recent accident had.

Fatigue was the number one factor in this accident. Errors were made by all crewmembers that would have been caught had they not been awake so long. No excuses for that, but it's the truth in this case. The Captain had been in and out of MEX for years and suspect his familarity with the operations caused him to let his guard down just when in fact there should have been red flags for everyone that morning. They didn't land on the wrong runway. They didn't even land on the runway period as the MLG was off the side in the dirt.

One interesting about Charlie Gilbert is that he learned to fly on the GI Bill after having served in the Marine Corps in Guadalcanal. He took a leave form Western and flew Captain at Japan Airlines. I always wondered how that worked out? :} Hardly sounds like a guy with a temper problem.

[p51guy]

Finally we have a pilot who respects grey haired old guys. Thank you. I learned a lot from those guys before I became one. Hated to see them leave at 60 when I was flying. I didn't want them to get out of my way like so many do now to advance. I was happy to wait my turn. Your turn will come so calm down.

[ExSp33db1rd]

... not the guy punching the buttons in the busy TMA


What are you doing heads' down punching buttons in a busy TMA ?

Doesn't anyone FLY the aeroplane anymore ?

Teaching young whizz kids to handle the 747, a colleague remarked that the wheel had come full circle - did I remember those 'old' W.W. II Captains of our youth, some couldn't fly an Instrument Approach to save their lives, literally, but pop out of cloud too high, too fast, not configured, not lined up, and say " the airfields over there, Sir " ( never forget the Sir ! ) and they would straighten up and fly an immaculate visual approach and landing -even with a four engined tail-dragger ! whereas the computer trained youths that we were now training could hand-fly an instrument approach down to minima better than we ever could, or probably ever would ( maybe ! ) but then they had to land a real aircraft on the real earth. Some had major problems.

O.K. - things have moved on and you probably execute more auto-lands than I could shake a stick at, but one dark, dirty night ................... and I know which age group I'd rather be sitting back in row 86Z with now when that occurs.

Flying experience cannot be taught - handling computer controlled machinery can.

[protectthehornet]

poor lambourne needs a joke to cheer him up.

There was an old man sitting in the park. He had a small alpa pin on his shirt. He was crying and crying.

A police officer (of unknown age) came up to him and said: Old man, what's wrong.?

I just married a beautiful 25 year old flight attendant (female), every night she cooks a wonderful gourmet healthful meal, we enjoy a night of passion and wake up completely wrapped up in each other. We love each other very much. She looks like Raquel Welch.

So, what's the problem old man?

Old Man: I forgot where I live.

But I just brough a 757 in on one engine, with a gear problem, landing on the short runway at KDCA, at night, and held short of runway 1. And we were ahead of schedule.
And under fuel burn.

[L337]

Lambourne very rudely points out the limitations of older Captains

He also vividly demonstrates his own personal limitations.

O.K. - things have moved on and you probably execute more auto-lands than I could shake a stick at, but one dark, dirty night ................... and I know which age group I'd rather be sitting back in row 86Z with now when that occurs.
67

.... to defend the youngsters, I fly with numerous young pilots that are superb aviators in all respects. Immaculate operators, with handling skills to match. I might be a grumpy old 747 Captain, but I see plenty of excellent aviators making their way up the seniority list.

Just because you are old does not make you bad, and just because you are young does not make you good. Mediocrity is not age dependent.

[Regulation 6]

L 337

Agreed. I have no doubt there are incompetent 60+ yr olds. But these Pilots were almost certainly also incompetent 50+, 40+, 30+ and 20+ yr olds.

I'm another 60+ old fool, but if the problem lies in the (low) standard of recurrent testing, which some on this thread think it does, then the solution surely is to raise the bar for everybody. If that's what is required, then I'm all for it...

I look upon myself as clearly not as sharp as I was 20 years ago, but I have more experience than I had then and in my view it balances out. My body certainly would not wish to be flying (eg) RIO - LONDON non-stop at night any more after 2 weeks of working and playing hard around South America - or 3 night Dalamans in a row. So a couple of years ago I chose to change my lifestyle to a more sedate mode of flying (Corporate). I'm still on a learning curve and will be until the day I finally have to give it up. Of one thing I am certain though - I am definately safer now than I was 35+ years ago as a young F/O on my first jet. You may need to be razor sharp to be top gun or a member of the Red Arrows but to be a good Multi-Crew operator you require - as well as an aptitude for flying - good co-ordination, rational thinking and an ability to prioritize. Above all, you must be dependable, reliable and a good team player.

Perhaps Lambourne and his allies should consider how useful they were when they were beginners at the art. I'm sure that they, like me, owe a huge debt of gratitude to the senior guys who felt it their responsibility to pass on wisdom to inexperienced newcomers. Maybe Lambourne could also learn humility and a lot of other things, since he would appear not to be at home on the flight deck in his current state of mind.

6

[411A]

...at home on the flight deck ...
Provided, of course, that he is (or ever was) on the FD.:rolleyes:

[airjet]

Lambourne is a nit wit lol here is the true story pilots who are 60+ don`t really give a crap what the "legal requirement" in the right seat has to say:eek: ok ok just kidding:O but me being one of those 65 year olds that started in 1966 has this to say "lamb when you get to 65 and have been flying for 40+ yrs AND have never put a dent in anybody`s airplane THEN you can talk to me.:ok:

[stepwilk]

Having communicated privately with Lambourne, I can assure you that all of you who think he's a make-believe pilot are wrong.

It also amuses me that there was a time, many posts ago, when Lambourne was over the top. Increasingly, however, it's the--dare I say it--gummers who are foaming at the mouth--gums?--and destroying their own cases in their irrational fury.

Lambourne, you may have noticed, seems to have retired from the field to allow his critics to hyperventilate.

Get lives.

[AnthonyGA]

I'd like to call everyone's attention to the on-going study on aging pilots are Stanford. It would seem that the top pilots keep on trucking, while the bottom pilots really lose their ability.There have been numerous studies of supposed cognitive decline with age, and they have generally shown that people who are bright in their youth tend to remain bright for a lifetime, whereas people who are marginal in their youth deteriorate significantly with age.

So a good pilot is likely to remain a good pilot throughout his life, even in old age. But someone who is just barely squeaking by in his early flying days may deteriorate to well below the minimum competence level required to fly as he gets old.

To some extent the evolution of cognitive ability with age seems to depend on how much it is used … the more you use your brain, the better the shape it will stay in as you get older (so if you fly and you want to continue flying, be sure that you fly a lot!). However, the ability one starts out with also seems to predict its evolution over time. For example, if the threshold of acceptable performance is 100, then a pilot at 300 at age 30 might still be at 250 by age 80, but a pilot who is at 105 at age 30 might be at only 20 by age 80.

Another factor concerns reflexes substituting for brains. A young person might count on fast reflexes to help him escape the consequences of his mistakes; but as he gets older, the reflexes slow and eventually his mistakes catch up with him. A young person who makes few mistakes to begin with, however, doesn't need reflexes to compensate for them, and will still be avoiding mistakes in old age.

What all of this means is that age is not a valid criterion of pilot evaluation at the individual level. If you look at large groups of pilots, you may see a slight decline in performance with age, but that has absolutely no predictive value when applied to individuals. For individuals, the only way to measure performance is to test it, irrespective of age. That's because individual variation in this case is vastly greater than age-related changes.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Provided, of course, that he is (or ever was) on the FD.

Funny, that's what I have been thinking about you, 411A. You have an average of two posts every day for the last 10 years, so unless you have internet installed in your L 1011, I don't think you spend a lot of time in the cockpit.

If any.

[thedeadseawasonlysick]

I've been a Training Captain and a Check Captain for over twenty five years, in the airlines and corporate. In that time I've seen pilots who have flown the A/C better than I ever will and some who should never have been passed out of initial training. Being sub-standard is not age dependent. Pilots of any age who refuse to accept advice or help are just as much a liability as those who do not proffer it. If I am flying to a new airfield that the other pilot is familiar with or we have an abnormal situation, I have a right to expect all the help he can give and he has a right to expect the same from me.
I have experienced the days before CRM became the norm and I would not like to return to them. Some posters on this thread seem to feel that they have been put on earth to judge the competence of their crew members in a very smug, self satisfied way. This is just as bad a character trait as the overbearing Captains they are complaining about. Modern a/c are designed for a multi-crew environment and that requires that we fly as a crew. Anyone who deliberately withholds pertinent information from another crew member, for whatever reason, has no place in aviation.

[skadi]

@AnthonyGA
One of the best comments for this theme!!!

skadi

[WhatsaLizad-II]

AnthonyGA

Well reasoned post. I agree that individual test could select those individuals that could continue flying and some might not make the cut below Age 60.

The problem is that I haven't heard of anyone doing comprehensive testing with medical, line ops or simulators to a level that would truly weed out the problems. Such testing in the USA would face decades of lawsuits even if they were perfectly designed. The problem is resources. We could test individuals faced with arbitrary limits throughout society from young drivers to young voters along with every other limitation, even the 35 year old limitation for the US Presidency. It simply becomes cost prohibitive for society to cater to every individual as in this case.

As I mentioned, I've flown with superb physical specimens who surely could fly to age 70 without problems. I've also flown with more than a few that were lacking and it appeared to be age related, especially when it came to fatigue.

The type of flying is also a factor. Many of the comments I've seen from others here along with my company and US carriers have been widebody Skippers averaging 9 day months with 3 landings, 2 extra First Officers helping if needed and excellent crew rest facilities. It's far different and more fatiguing flying narrow body aircraft into congested US airspace with 3 legs at the end of a 13.5 hour duty day at 2 am.

To repeat, I've flown jets in that enviroment with those adverse schedules with 60+ individuals. At times it was ugly. Some of then sounded like many here, that they were better than they were at 25. Usually that statement came at 10 am with half a cup of coffee in hand.

It is a safety issue. I've seen it first hand.

[poina]

411, I guess you were a little befuddled when you pontificated that this thread is only relevant to part 121 ops and not a general discussion of age related slowdown.
Can I bring to your attention your post #10 where you inform us of the 70+ Gulfstream pilot "as sharp as a tack"?
So ok for you to infer that age doesn't matter and not for me?
I did 19 years at Saudia, and we both know that a million $ in 15 is quite normal. Were you perhaps asked to leave? Masallama and don't come back?
Care to comment on the GS in Houston? Either yes or no will make you look like an idiot. Your turn.

[411A]

I did 19 years at Saudia...
Now we know the reason for your befuddlement...:}

[protectthehornet]

he did 19 years at saudia? what for, grand theft? possession? didn't johnny cash write a song about that?

;-)

[ManaAdaSystem]

No answer to his post then?

Hit a bit too close to the mark, did he?

[chickpilotflying]

I totally agree! The same as driving, who wants these dangers in the sky as well as on the ground? Hang up your wings already; not safe! :=

[Whirlybird]

Away with medicals. Simply use birth certificates. What a lot of saving on time, money, and hassle.

Well, that is what some of you are saying, isn't it?

[WhatsaLizad-II]

I don't know the practices of issuing medicals outside of the USA. I can assure you that using the current USA aviation medical exam as a tool for weeding out those sliding due to age is completely worthless other than catching those with chronic easily diagnosed conditions or those with one foot in the grave.


There is a reason certain US AME Physicians get a huge proportion of commercial pilots.

The current system is inadequate for judging fitness for flight with a aging pilot group. The birth certificate seems to be well used for a million other arbitrary reasons including meal discounts for seniors. A true sign of selfish self importance is to deny it's use when it doesn't seem to work for oneself.

[protectthehornet]

so, has anyone actually seen anything official about raising the age to 70? I haven't ...so maybe we should just wait until it makes the news shows

[411A]

so, has anyone actually seen anything official about raising the age to 70?

Yes, in several countries, among them are...
Honduras
Bolivia
Argentina
Male
Benin
Syria
Jordan
Mauritania

And, several others.
Not done yet, only under consideration.

If it comes to pass, it will allow the younger set (such as they are) to work in their choosen profession, should they chose to do so.
Junior guys that don't especially like this arrangement, will just have to lump it.
Tough sh!te.

Edited to add...
It is quite likely that the 'change' will come from the EU, first.

[skol]

I've flown with a 70 year old F/O who I am sure is in the first stages of dementia.
The first major accident caused by a P in C handicapped by an age related mental condition will cause the entire matter to be revisited.

[protectthehornet]

I recall a UAL 737 in which the captain had an unknown brain tumor...and he was under 60 years of age. His performance was impaired. and this was in the day of 3 crewmembers on the 737.

there are cases of people with dementia in their middle age. so let's not use age as the sole factor.

[skol]

Alzheimers or senile dementia is obviously much more likely in a person of advanced age so it is certainly a good argument.
Of course there are cases of dementia in middle age but extremely rare and you and I both know there is no way of checking what's going on between pilots ears at medicals.
An accident caused by a mentally impaired aged pilot (and there will be one) will be so sensational the public will demand answers.

Flying aeroplanes is not a job for old people. 65 is more than enough.

[airjet]

must be a democrat thing lol:=

[AnthonyGA]

Alzheimer's disease and other forms of dementia are not conditions that present for the first time in the form of pilot incapacitation. They are slow-moving conditions with fairly obvious symptoms that will interfere with day-to-day life long before a concern for flying arises. If a person cannot find his way to the airport, he's unlikely to have his condition discovered on the flight deck.

The requirements for flying are the same at any age. There is no reason to have additional requirements for older pilots. If a given set of requirements suffices at age 25, then it also suffices at age 75. The tests should concentrate purely on verifying that a person can safely fly, not on discriminating between age groups with artificial, additional restrictions that only apply to older pilots.

Do away with medicals? No, that probably wouldn't be a good idea. However, many of the requirements and restrictions that exist now could be safely eased or eliminated without any real impact on safety. Aviation authorities are obsessed with the bogeyman of a pilot who suddenly passes out at the controls, but this type of sudden pilot incapacitation is practically unknown, even though nearly the entire process of medical certification concentrates upon it (to the detriment of many other considerations).

You might say that pilot incapacitation is rare because medicals are so stringent. But in that case, you'll have to explain why driver incapacitation is also extraordinarily rare, even though most automobile drivers scarcely need more than a quick vision test to get a license.

You can also see how rare it is just by walking down a street. When was the last time you were on a busy street or in a crowd and you saw someone suddenly incapacitated, dropping to the ground? It's just as likely on the street as it is on a flight deck. And yet it's so rare that many of us have never seen it at all (I've seen it exactly once in my lifetime). And these people on the street are not being given aviation medicals to weed out the high risks.

In other words, the whole notion of pilot incapacitation, whether it be through some medical condition or simply the result of old age (although old age alone never produces incapacitation), is not very relevant in aviation today. There are far greater dangers to worry about, such as simple pilot fatigue, and they are not addressed by aviation medical exams at all.

Checking a pilot's age is pretty useless. It would be a lot more productive to check how much good-quality sleep he has had prior to arriving at the airport.

[411A]

Do away with medicals? No, that probably wouldn't be a good idea
Agreed.
Also, it is interesting to note that first class medical examinations, be it FAA or JAA, are failed in about the same percentage....about 3%.
How do I know this?
The MD I go to for my FAA medical also admisters JAA, DoT Canada...and a host of other countries requirements...and has been doing so far at least the last fifteen years.
Old age?
Baloney....it affects some, certainly, but not the majority.
However, I would offer a suggestion for those younger pilots who feel they are affected.
I would propose, for those pilots age 65 or more, be consigned to reserve flight status only, and this could easily be arranged by the respective airline's collective bargining arrangements.
In this way, the younger guys could advance to Commander status, without affecting the old(er) pilots desire to remain in the LHS....or RHS, as the case may be.

How about that?:}

[WhatsaLizad-II]

Checking a pilot's age is pretty useless. It would be a lot more productive to check how much good-quality sleep he has had prior to arriving at the airport.

Useless?

I will consider many things if flying with fellow crewmember I've never worked before. Personal appearance, attention to detail, motivation to do the job correctly per the company and air regs despite distractions, and including age. Very young and very old will warrant my attention until assurred of adequate performance.

I guess I was dreaming about my past experience of flying with age 60+ pilots and the proportion of them demonstrating performance limitations.

Good quality sleep? shall we begin another discussion regarding the quality of sleep one gets with age advances. How many times does one hear of the failure to get 8+ hours of uninterrupted sleep with those in the aging process? Another related issue is the interruption of sleep cycles with aviation. I agree that good rest is important and every age group suffers in performance as a result. this was another result I saw first hand flying with 60+ pilots. There isn't a thing as good rest or sleep with a 3 am wake up call and denying that it doesn't affect a rising number of older pilots as they age is criminally negligent.

[WhatsaLizad-II]

I would also agree that sudden incapacitation is not the threat made out to be. Partial incapacitations are more likely and much more common. I've seen plenty of those in public and had more than a few on my flights. It has also occurred with pilots at my carrier, including those of all ages.

[skol]

I've discussed the matter of aging pilots, with the MD who does my medicals, at some length.
This guy also does medicals for foreign carriers and is very involved in the aviation industry.
He's a firm believer in a fixed age and has told me the problems he faces trying to assess the mental conditon of old pilots during the time it takes for a medical, almost an impossible task.
On the only occasion he failed an elderly pilot, for confusion in his case, this individual promptly obtained his medical certificate elsewhere.
A couple of managers can't understand why they're hearing stories but haven't had any hard evidence like formal reports. You don't need to be Albert Einstein to work that one out.
The industry is relying on pilots to dob in their compatriots so you're leaving yourself wide open to allegations of harassment.

Better to leave the dirty work to someone else, right?

[AnthonyGA]

Very young and very old will warrant my attention until assurred of adequate performance.That is your prerogative, but it has no clear basis in objective reality.

Youth isn't a problem. Lack of experience is a big problem. Young people generally have less experience. But by checking experience (and not age), you solve that problem without the need for age discrimination. If a pilot somehow has 15,000 hours of real experience at age 25, then the fact that he is 25 makes no difference at all.

Old age isn't a problem. Medical conditions that are more common with age are problems. But the medical exam rules those out. If you were pulling 70-year-old people at random from the street to work as pilots, then yes, there would be more medical problems among them than you'd find in a 30-year-old cohort. However, pilots are not pulled from the population at random. A vast body of regulation and testing ensures that all pilots meet certain physical qualifications for flying, so irrespective of age, a pilot who is certified medically fit is okay to fly.

I guess I was dreaming about my past experience of flying with age 60+ pilots and the proportion of them demonstrating performance limitations.It might be biased or wishful thinking.

Remember also that marginal pilots deteriorate a lot faster than superior pilots. That's not a direct result of aging, it's just that aging makes mediocre pilots a lot more obvious.

[The doctor I know] is a firm believer in a fixed age and has told me the problems he faces trying to assess the mental conditon of old pilots during the time it takes for a medical, almost an impossible task.The assessment is the same for all ages. If he has doubts about the mental condition of an older pilot, then he needs to defer or deny the medical as appropriate, if he has reason to believe that the pilot is unfit.

From what you are saying, this doctor takes for granted that older pilots require more evaluation, even though there's no evidence to support that.

A simple principle applies: Any exam that accurately assesses the aptitude of a pilot to fly can be applied to any age, because age itself is not relevant to aptitude. If the current exam fails to identify certain pilots as not fit to fly, then the exam needs to change. You do not administer a different exam for older pilots, because the objective requirements of flying do not change with age (maybe they change with aircraft, or type of pilot certification, or with other factors, but not with age).

Doctors can be biased, too, unfortunately.

I'm surprised (well, maybe not so surprised) that so many here dwell on the alleged deterioration in physical condition that comes with age, while ignoring the huge, enormous advantage that comes with experience. Not just total flying hours, but general experience. Older people make decisions more slowly, but their decisions are generally better. That's why so many positions of responsibility are held by older people. And flying an aircraft these days, at least when it comes to commercial air travel, is not sufficiently demanding physically to justify excessive worry about medical condition, whereas the value of experience continues to increase every day.

Look at the accident record. How many accidents were due to slow reflexes, and how many were due to poor judgment? Reflexes deteriorate with age, but judgment improves (not because of age itself, but because of the increased experience that usually comes with age).

Think back to that Colgan Air crash. The pilots were young indeed, and perhaps they had cat-like reflexes in consequence; but they made all the wrong decisions, and so, instead of rapidly getting out of trouble, they rapidly got deeper into it. Would a 65-year-old pilot with thousands of hours of experience in similar situations have made the same wrong decisions? Would he have even allowed himself to get into trouble to begin with?

[ospreydriver]

I'm of two minds on this issue.

First, I think this is partly due to older pilots seeing their pensions dry up and wanting to work longer. I can't blame them for wanting that.

However, anything that makes more people eligible to either become, or in this case, remain, pilots keeps the supply and demand curves stacked against those trying to enter the profession. Regardless of the fact that these older pilots may themselves be paid more, they are still taking up a vacancy that would otherwise have to be filled by the market of incoming pilots. This will add to all the factors making wages lower in this profession.

Adding to this, for both good and bad, increasing the retirement age will encourage more retiring military pilots to look at the airlines. When the mandatory retirement age was 60, a pilot who left the military at age 42 probably wouldn't consider the airlines--18 years isn't that long of a career. At 65, it's more appealing, and 70, definitely so. These pilots also already have pensions to get them through the early low-wage years. Again, this will add to the supply of pilots.

On the other hand, someday I'll be one of those guys, and maybe I'll be able to take advantage of it!:ok:

[stilton]

' so, has anyone actually seen anything official about raising the age to 70? I haven't ...so maybe we should just wait until it makes the news shows'



Er, exactly, I suspect this is a big wind up..

[johns7022]

Why all the angst over pilot age...last I heard you had two pilots up front, with most of you fighting tooth and nail for CRM, young 200 hr marsh mellows in the right seat..

So what's the problem?...you have some experience in the left seat...and a new guy in the right...that's the perfect combination right? or are you worried that the FO won't be able to handle a plane all by himself if the captain drops over?

Or maybe you would rather put two 200 hr pilot's up front?

[parabellum]

On the only occasion he failed an elderly pilot, for confusion in his case, this individual promptly obtained his medical certificate elsewhere.

Who was the regulating authority Skol? In the ones that I am familiar with the doctor who failed the pilot is obliged to file that information with the aviation authority concerned, so when the second doctor sent in a 'pass' questions would be asked and the certificate suspended until the AA were satisfied that the pilot was fit, or otherwise.

[skol]

Well he didn't go into that but given this particular doctor's reliance on the aviation industry for his business I'm sure he alerted the authority involved, to do otherwise would be medical practice suicide.
Since he does medicals for aging pilots in the Pacific who work for next to nothing, maybe the guy went to another country.
I was also told that instead of failing elderly pilots for mental problems he decided to communicate with their wives in case they could apply some leverage to give up flying, but when the wife answered the phone with a squeaky voice and the 1960's clock chiming in the background, he came to the conclusion the wives were in just as bad a shape.

I'm over 60 myself so it's not as if if I'm a young guy who wants to move up, but the real bonus turning 60, and there's not many, is that I don't have to fly with over 60 F/O's in US airspace any more.
Whoopee.

[Andu]

As a Baby Boomer, I feel I can comment "from within". I get the distinct impression that there are a few amongst our Boomer ("it's all about me,me, always me") generation who, if they get this extension to age 70 accepted, in five years time will be pushing for an extension to age 75.

[ZimmerFly]

That makes a slight change from today's 20 somethings....not only is it "me,me,me" ...but also... "now,now,now" :} :8

[ExSp33db1rd]

......so, has anyone actually seen anything official .......


No age limit in Aus. or NZ. but ... company contracts come into play, and of course the medicals.

I maintained a Class 1 Aviation Med. to age 74, even tho' I wasn't employed, and only because I went to renew it was a problem discovered, and dealt with, unlike the - likely - 100% of drivers hurtling towards me at a closing speed of 220 kph. who don't even know they have a problem, until they wake up dead one morning - or hit me on the road.

I'd rather fly behind a medically monitored pilot, than drive down the road in the face of the vast number of unmonitored drivers.

[William A Bong]

"I'm of two minds on this issue."

Isn't that the problem we are discussing:ok:

And Osprey is only 37::ok:







And for those of you with a sense of humour failure. I am joking!!

[cosmo kramer]

AnthonyGA:
Think back to that Colgan Air crash. The pilots were young indeed, and perhaps they had cat-like reflexes in consequence; but they made all the wrong decisions, and so, instead of rapidly getting out of trouble, they rapidly got deeper into it. Would a 65-year-old pilot with thousands of hours of experience in similar situations have made the same wrong decisions? Would he have even allowed himself to get into trouble to begin with?
Stupidity, lack of skills and/or training know no age or hours...
Think of Crossair BAe 146 crash in 2001...
Captain 56 y/o with 20000 hours and yet managed to fly a VOR approach without adjusting V/S as the speed was reduced. Resulting in the path gradually becoming steeper and steeper until CFIT 3 nm short of runway. Not to mention a bunch of other mistakes, such as going below minimum without runway in sight. The final report is scary read, as it goes into great detail about the commanders history. Impressive that he managed to stay alive for such a long career. Maybe he got away unharmed from the incidents the report mentions in the past because he had not yet fallen below your "100 threshold" of acceptable performance mentioned in one of your post a couple of pages back.

Some may hack it at old age, some not. Better to make a cut-off so no one slips through. Too much "buddy-buddy friendliness" keeping people in the business already, that should have been hauled out. The only effective regulation for keeping the bad old ones away is to keep everyone away.

[protectthehornet]

doesn't the axiom:

there are old pilots

there are bold pilots

but there are no old, bold pilots.

come into play?

[ManaAdaSystem]

Yes it does. I'm sure our Islamabad captain was both old and bold, but he is dead along with 150 of his passengers, so it does prove your point.

[WhatsaLizad-II]

hornet,

It works perfectly if the old guy is control of his schedule and the weather he flys in. Forecast to land a NRT with a 30kt crosswind with a approaching Typhoon?, let the junior FO/FB/FC fly it or use one of his 1000 sick hours to stay home. The less senior guy flying reserve narrowbody doesn't have that luxury. 30 Kt crosswind with mins at LGA, "F.U., you fly pilotboy, we don't care if your a geriatric". Get the picture?

In my previous example of flying with geriatrics in charter jets, I mentioned one in particular who lived by the motto and I respected for it. At the end of a long duty day when we were both fatigued, he would tell me he couldn't do the job that late as good as he could at 10am. Our little "system" worked fine.

The problem was, there was another geriatric at the same company who apparently never heard of that motto, thought he was Chuck Yeager and aging wasn't a problem, just young whippersnappers. This was the guy that almost killed me and the CEO of a Fortune 500 Corporation. He also passed medicals with flying with an easy FAA Dr. He was passed by a reputable simulator training company although I could tell they fudged the system to get him through from learning his "new techniques". Let me tell you how much fun it was getting off every flight with this "senior menace" and hearing from the pax "You let the young kid fly today didn't you?". The worthless puke never admitted he bounced the pax all over the cabin every flight. Yes, after I reported the attempted murder on me and the CEO, and I was promptly placed in the "doghouse" for questioning the "Senior Aviator" of impeccable credentials. That's how the political life is at many non-union pilot groups with "connected, untouchable" individuals. Knowing that reality, that's why I am for an arbitrary age cutoff.

Not long afterwards I was let out of the doghouse and given treats for my integrity. You see, Mr CEO had his own jet down for maintenance which is why we got the charter. Mr CEO had a good Chief Pilot who busted into our op looking for scalps after learning of the bosses experience.

I'd bow out of the debate if it was purely about money and the left seat. Since that time I've seen many others exhibiting the same problems I've dealt with in the past. Age is a factor. I don't know what to say when another poster replies to my points that almost dying from it is not a factor, and no additional testing for old guys is fair. it's like the debate with guns. It seems like myself and others are to submit to this risk because additional testing would be unfair to others like old people.

One get some clarity on the issue after finding yourself involuntarily hyperventilating on rollout after an exceptionally stupid move from a 63 year old in a bizjet.

The denial present on this board is stunning.

[poina]

Well said, and that's exactly what it is, denial of the natural process of aging. And it isn't going to work as 411 pointed out to move the 65 to a reserve line where he could be called at 2 AM with light sleep or less. As many have mentioned, fatigue can have a cumulative affect with age.

[411A]

And it isn't going to work as 411 pointed out to move the 65 to a reserve line where he could be called at 2 AM with light sleep or less.
Of course it will work...they'll get fed up and leave.
Simples.:}

[ospreydriver]

There are 70 year-olds who are sharper than 25 year-olds. On the other hand, there are many staying well past their prime.

It reminds me of what some states are doing with driver licenses. After 65, they make the renewal interval tighter and make them come in for eye exams.

While tightening up the interval for physicals isn't applicable here, maybe there's something else that could be done.

We all know that there are flight docs who are known to give easy passes. Perhaps the FAA could certify a smaller number of select examiners as "geriatric aviation medicine" specialists, and require them to certify older pilots as not falling prey to the maladies that accompany aging.

I know it won't happen, but I think it would answer the mail.

[Uncle Fred]

AnthonyGa wrote Checking a pilot's age is pretty useless. It would be a lot more productive to check how much good-quality sleep he has had prior to arriving at the airport.


Probably one of best suggestions that I have read on this forum although that would bring the entire "game" crashing down now wouldn't it? There would have to start being more intelligent allowances for circadian disruptions built into schedules and an awareness that not every human can force himself/herself asleep for the night at 5 p.m. body time and then easily wake up a 1 a.m. body time for a 14 hour day. Some can and some can't and I feel sorry for the impairment that those who can't must suffer.

I know, I know, the answer to that is if those poor souls don't like it they should quit, but I would have thought that one day a more enlightened approach would be tried--sort of like the idea of leaving the camping area in better shape then what you found it in...

It is enviable if one is, whilst still in nappies, to be hired into a stable and growing carrier and thus have the luxury of always plying the routes that are best for them. Yet I have seen legions of poor sappers for whom fate has blown iller winds are left with the unenviable choice of having to suffer lack of sleep on their rosters or else have to consider a mid-life career change into something such as chartered accountancy (as worthy as that career might be).

[Capt Claret]

The simple solution to this problem is to ban pilots under 35 from flying because they're too young and inexperienced, and then to ban all pilots over 40 from flying because at 40 one is on the downhill slide. This would get all the old farts off the flight deck.

On the other hand we could prevent all aircraft accidents, 100%, by grounding all aircraft. :rolleyes:

[skol]

Last year I was flying long haul with a 70 year old F/O who is a check F/O, checking F/O's and S/O's. On this occasion he was checking the S/O. This was a 4 pilot crew, 2 on, 2 off, and during the flight I asked him for 10 left and right of track due weather on the datalink, an exceptionally easy and very routine task. He couldn't do it and while he was in the bunkroom the rest of us are howling with laughter at a guy who should be in a retirement village.

[Capt Claret]

The other day I asked the young F/O to call "ready". Instead he called "ready on line up".

There's an enormous difference between "ready" and "ready on line up". I shook my head in wonder that he couldn't carry out a simple instruction.

[MPH]

ZZZZZZZ:bored: What was that you said Uhh...ZZZZZZZ!! Come on guys if, the person (he or she) passes medical´s and SIM´s then, what´s the problem? Are we discriminating here...:= sorry not allowed. Pension plans going haywire...maybe?. Young pilot´s also get through their SIM´s and pass medical´s. And I imagine some are not all that they make out to be! In all fairness, who is going to put an age limit on our profession when, all the above is taken into account. It´s very nice to work for a company 25 years and retire with a good pension, yes. But, others, have not been so lucky and have been left without a pension. They might need to work in what they are trained to do, shall we deny them that right?

[Green Guard]

I'm sure our Islamabad captain was both old and bold,

ManaAdaSystem...'ow the 'ell do you Know That he was bold ?

[ManaAdaSystem]

Because he went where nobody had gone before.

[lambourne]

The other day I asked the young F/O to call "ready". Instead he called "ready on line up".

There's an enormous difference between "ready" and "ready on line up". I shook my head in wonder that he couldn't carry out a simple instruction.


Sounds like mewhen I fly with an over 60 pilot attempting to use CPDLC. Finally had to dig the Manual out and have him attempt to read it like a script. Embrassing that this seasoned veteran is afflicted with cranialrectus disease. Thus making him unable to learn anything since 1985, while simultaneously making my airline sound like morons on the radio.

[parabellum]

Last year I was flying long haul with a 70 year old F/O who is a check F/O, checking F/O's and S/O's. On this occasion he was checking the S/O. This was a 4 pilot crew, 2 on, 2 off, and during the flight I asked him for 10 left and right of track due weather on the datalink, an exceptionally easy and very routine task. He couldn't do it and while he was in the bunkroom the rest of us are howling with laughter at a guy who should be in a retirement village


What you were asking, if simultaneous, would have been difficult. I am familiar with the Honeywell set up, can you explain a little more please?
Wouldn't this have been easily achieved using the heading bug? Perhaps you are just another slave to automation?

[parabellum]

lambourne - You are a 'wind up' and you do need professional help, or do you work for very crap outfit?

[Capt Claret]

Or like the other young F/O, when asked to advise TWR that we required an early left turn (to avoid weather painting upwind), said "ah TWR, we um might need an early left turn when airborne".

An old gummer would have said, "TWR, require an early left turn". :rolleyes:

[Hotel Charlie]

Or like the other young F/O, when asked to advise TWR that we required an early left turn (to avoid weather painting upwind), said "ah TWR, we um might need an early left turn when airborne".

An old gummer would have said, "TWR, require an early left turn".

Uh... and this has what to do with the price of rice?? :ugh:

[Capt Claret]

SFA

It's just as stupid as all the criticisms of older pilots.

[ZimmerFly]

parabellum

Perhaps "young" skol missed a comma or two ?

and during the flight I asked him for 10 left and right of track due weather on the datalink,

I have never seen weather on the datalink ! :confused:

I guess he was asking the mature F/O to send a datalink (CPDLC) request for the deviations?

Clear instructions prevent confusion.

[Green Guard]

I asked him for 10 left and right of track due weather on the datalink,

Hello mate !
Do you mean 10 degrees or 10 NM ?
Still
Forgive me here, but your post looks like to be written by someone either over 80 or bellow 10.
1. How can you avoid weather "left and right" ?
2. Wouldn’t it be better either left or right ?
3. Weather has a tendency "not to remain in steady place" on datalink...
4. So why did you not just use simple old heading bug ?

Cheers:cool:

[WhatsaLizad-II]

ZZZZZZZhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wbored.gif What was that you said Uhh...ZZZZZZZ!! Come on guys if, the person (he or she) passes medical´s and SIM´s then, what´s the problem? Are we discriminating here...:= sorry not allowed. Pension plans going haywire...maybe?. Young pilot´s also get through their SIM´s and pass medical´s. And I imagine some are not all that they make out to be! In all fairness, who is going to put an age limit on our profession when, all the above is taken into account. It´s very nice to work for a company 25 years and retire with a good pension, yes. But, others, have not been so lucky and have been left without a pension. They might need to work in what they are trained to do, shall we deny them that right?

First highlight. Anybody asserting that pilots from 60-70 do not face additonal health problems such as a reduction in quality sleep time, increasing fatigue issues, and a slide in physical reactions is a complete fool in denial. There are health issues that Airman Dr's can immediately find for disqualifications, but many that aren't noticable in a short visit with the typical USA FAA AME. USA commercial pilots also tend to visit their "favorite" AME that tend to be very,very, easy standards. I went to one a few years ago, a notorious "easy" examiner. He was also suffering from the same aging problems as highlighted here. He was near 70.

As I sat down in his office, he was very enjoyable and friendly and said it was great to see me again. He asked how my wife and kids were that they must be getting big since last visit, how my Dad was, as well as a few other friendly questions. The problem was that I'd never saw this Doctor before in my life :ooh:

I think that experience should cover the foolish cries that oldsters are not a health risk if they pass a Physical.

Second highlight: Who is going to put an age limit? Anyone with half a brain and a rudimentry sense of responsibility. The effects of aging are real and very clear. The existing tests are not adequate to catch them unless they become chronic and severe. It is true that younger aviators do have problems and do slip by in the Sims. They of course may get extra scrutiny, and may have to perform correctly or get "tossed out on their ears" as 411A is fond of saying. They still have a chance to get better. An pilot sliding with the symptoms of aging will not.

Third highlight. You voice concern that many are without pensions and may need to work. This argument is as asinine as the argument that oldsters should retire just for the younger guys. Both assertions are ridiculous and shouldn't be used by either side. Although it hurts me personally, I feel it shouldn't be part of the debate.

[protectthehornet]

good for you! I hate it when people don't add the type of units, ie: degrees, miles, etc.

The best pilot I've ever flown with was a designated examiner for the FAA and he was 70 years old (at the time). He use to teach in B17's at Minden, Nevada or other similiar bases.

There is something to be said for age...Who would you rather be with? Raquel Welch, or Paris Hilton?

[poina]

Now I'll ask you which one you would like to see naked? Raquel was uber sexy but time and gravity.....

[WhatsaLizad-II]

Yes, in several countries, among them are...
Honduras
Bolivia
Argentina
Male
Benin
Syria
Jordan
Mauritania


Really 411A?

This is the list of countries you fondly look at for how to operate in todays world of aviation? Are they far reaching thinkers of progressive thought or are the goverments involved just trying to keep their relatives gainfully employed? My guess is the latter.

It's amazing that anyone with half a brain would entertain themselves by seeking guidance from your list of countries on how to live ones life let alone run an airline. :rolleyes:

It's some of the better comedy you've ever posted 411A :D

[protectthehornet]

I'd take RW...she still looks great to me.

as for Paris Hilton, I 'd rather stay in the Newark Ramada!

[poina]

PTH,
Yeah Paris ain't something you'd want to take home to Mom, but think how disappointed Mom would be when you show up with Grandma.

[WhatsaLizad-II]

The best pilot I've ever flown with was a designated examiner for the FAA and he was 70 years old (at the time). He use to teach in B17's at Minden, Nevada or other similiar bases.


Great hornet. As soon as the world's pilot force gets to pick and choose the amount of flying they do each week, as well as the type of weather they fly in as in you examiners case, then the safety risks of elderly pilots will drop significantly.

Most of us on both sides of the issue can point to certain pilots who are as sharp as they were in their 20's and far better with their experience. Abritrary numbers are a fact in every aspect of life including aviation. They exists because it is prohibitively expensive to micromanage every single little detail in the lives of many people, including the skills of those who want to fly without an age limit.

Just keep dancing around reality folks.

[skol]

Green Guard

You're obviously unfamiliar with the datalink, CPDLC, call it what you like, so I'll help you out, mate.
It's a requirement to obtain ATC permission to go off track so a request for '10 left and right of track due weather' is a normal request to the non-flying pilot and is in miles, not degrees. That is the prompt.
Once approval is obtained the heading bug can be used to maneouvre within those limits.
I'm not 'young', I'm 60, but will definitely be departing the aviation scene before I end up being lampooned like some of my elderly colleagues who sometimes find routine tasks impossible, but somehow manage to keep their jobs.

They know they're not up to the job and you'd think they'd have the common sense to quit, but unfortunately not. One or two believe they're onto it and sharp as they were decades ago - it's what I call the 'indispensable syndrome', the company will go into receivership without them.

The most galling part for the S/O's for whom there is no promotion and for the best part are very experienced pilots is having to help these oldies do their jobs.

[411A]

They know they're not up to the job and you'd think they'd have the common sense to quit, but unfortunately not.
Speak entirely for yourself, skol...like sox at a department store, one size does definitely not fit all.

NB.
You will be forgiven for not knowing this FACT.

[poina]

Skol, shame on you, don't you know 411 is DFO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!to which I might add-BFD!!!!!!!!!!!!

[skol]

411A,
A couple of these guys have been hauled over the coals in the office for nodding off at a moments notice, day and night. OK, we all get tired and drop off from time to time but the idea is to let everyone know, SOP's etc, but a couple of them have almost lost control of their ability to stay awake, you think they'd get the picture and throw in the towel.
I flew with one a while back and after 2 hours in the bunkroom he got back in the RHS, and promptly fell over onto the right window and sidewall. I honestly thought the guy had kicked the bucket.
Send them off on a 9 day tour of duty with the boss, who's aware of what's going on, and all of a sudden they can stay awake.
Uncanny isn't it?

[protectthehornet]

could it be medication...authorized or not? and then the guy quit taking the meds when he went out with the boss?

I'm thinking blood pressure meds.

but guys, I've seen a thirty year old fall asleep too. I honestly would have reported him, but he was getting furloughed after that flight, so I let it slide.

[Tankengine]

Looks like the old guys know little about newfangled things like datalink!!:=
Back to the HF then!:ugh:

[411A]

but guys, I've seen a thirty year old fall asleep too.
Not only thirty year olds, forty and fifty as well.
My last First Officer is a case in point.
Forty two, and slips off into a snooze at a moments notice, during cruise.
Twelve hours duty is far too much for him, it seems.
Ohhhh, the poor child.:{
He says he can't sleep in hotac.
He had better learn, or do without a salary...and F/O duties.
Some (but certainly not all) younguns simply cannot keep up the pace, it would appear.
Tough sh!te for them, I say.:}

[skol]

411A,
Here's my theory on what these dudes are up too.
Despite the fact they're well aware they're not up to the job, they don't want to quit while they're ahead.
It's going to be an ignominious end for some of these guys and then they'll claim stress or some such medical problem, go sick, get paid to stay at home for 6 months as per their contract, then finally go.

Either that or they're hoping the company will pay them to go, same thing.

Unlikely to be fondly remembered by their aviation colleagues.

You're probably curious as to why these guys don't become short haul captains for more pay on a different type, right?

The answer is they'll fail, one has already tried and never got past the simulator.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to these old guys 411.
On one occasion I did a tour of duty to SFO for 5 days and the very elderly F/O bought his wife, now I know why he goes to work.

[YorkshireTyke]

.....as for Paris Hilton,......


Who's Paris Hilton ?

and should I care ?

[mary meagher]

You simply cannot rely on an old pilot to gracefully retire. We begin to notice lack of situation awareness at our flying club, and persuade the older pilots to step down into limited duty (eg briefings, supervising the launchpoint, etc) where they are less likely to kill anybody.

But boy did I hate it when they did it to me!

[Dragon 83]

I'm also over 60 and still flying long haul while maintaining a class one Med and excellent performance results on my routine check rides/recurrent trng SIMs etc.

Although I'm obviously age bias I don't think it's fair to use age alone as a major factor of performance capability. I've flown professionally for 42 yrs and still enjoy my profession, when my performance begins to suffer or I feel I am no longer competent then I'll hang up the stirrups.

I fly routinely with young F/O's who have great difficulty regulating their rest periods or socializing at the detriment of their crew rest and cannot function properly without long sleeps in the cockpit.

We all need to be evaluated in our profession regardless of age, if we don't cut it then move on.

[MPH]

WhatsaLizad 11: It´s always intresting to read other points of view. But, in your case (post) I still do not see a conclusion? What should the cut of limit be for the ageing pilot population. And, on what criteria should we base it on (physical,SIM´s, statistics, pension plans or what?) Oh well, I still remember when I had to cross the open sea´s with Loran...how time fly´s!!

[thedeadseawasonlysick]

I also remember Loran, which dates me. I also remember one of my final command checks, where the F/O fell asleep on finals, after an all night freighter flight. When I spoke to him afterwards, he admitted that it was not the first time. You’re going to find this hard to believe, but he’d done it before whilst hand flying on finals. I later found out that at his previous company he’d been notorious for it. Flying for an IT company, he’d normally flown with his shoulder harness on. Otherwise he tended to bang his head on the coaming.
Having returned today, from an overnight flight from the middle of Asia, and not managing to sleep during the afternoon, I had a couple of naps on the way back. All as recommended, with the full knowledge of the F/O. Does that make me a “Gummer”, because the F/O did exactly the same in turn?

[lambourne]

My last First Officer is a case in point.
Forty two, and slips off into a snooze at a moments notice, during cruise.

He wasn't asleep. He just didn't want to talk to you. There is a big difference between being bored to sleep and feining sleep to avoid having to chat with someone that you find pompous, obnoxious and socially unacceptable....

It is the window stare. You let the old gummer drone on and on about something and look out the window. Let him spin himself up about his latest gripe and don't acknowledge that he has said a word. It truly is great fun. Unless it is necessitated by an SOP you will not get me to respond to anything you say. Saftey of flight, I'm all in, but ramblings of an old gomper don't draw enough water to need a nod. You antiques are like using a laser pointer to entertain a dog. Both of you trying to catch something you will never get. The dog= the light, you old coots= your youth

I highly suspect that is what occurred with you and your "crew". They just don't want to listen to you complain about your bunions, psoriasis or the inadequate quality of your last meal at the Waffle House.

[ManaAdaSystem]

411A is slipping. He has always told us "his" first officers are the best in the industry, able to deal with any and all situations that may happen. Now suddenly they can't keep their eyes open???
Have you forgotten, 411A?

When was your last flight? 1976?

[777fly]

Welcome back LAMBOURNE, nicely stirring the debate again. I have to confess that I shared some of your attitude to older pilots in the past when I was a 17 year F/O and often had to 'take care' of ageing Captains. Nevertheless, those guys always had the odd pearl of wisdom to share and many of those 'nuggets' have helped me through a multitude of problems in the years since. That was when retirement was compulsory at 55 in my company. We lost many mentally agile and immensely capable pilots then.
There must be some 'gummers' who have ability, personality and the capabililty to match your exacting standards? If they ask you about your day, your interests, if you would like a cup of coffee, do you cut them all dead? They are all fellow passengers on the path through life and your outright rejection of their experience, interest and ability is appalling. I wonder what airline you fly for and to what standards. CRM must be pretty low on the agenda.
All said, I do think it sad if the older guys soldier on, for whatever reason, and do not recognise the deterioration in themselves. I am coming up to 64 and can still cut it with you on any terms, be it a/c handling, cognitive ability, staying awake, or CRM. Personally I would not support a retirement extension to 70 as the physical/mental implications escalate rapidly after 65, for some it's long before that. A cutoff at 65 seems right to me, I love this job but enough will be enough. At the end of the day, I would sooner retire at any age than have the likes of Lambourne to look for age related faults in me and be able to find them.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Pretty much all the over 60 pilots on this board consider themselves to be better than the younger ones in all areas, and do not suffer from anything age related.

I can only conclude that aging is like getting drunk, you think you getter better and better when in reality the opposite happens. The only ones who notice are the people around you.

ManaAdaSystem, who got delayed today because the previous captain (age 63) forgot to sign the tech log.

[777fly]

Well, ManadAdsystem or whatever it is,

The opposite of what you say is also true. Its the young, cocky, arrogant know-it-alls who represent a big danger in our industry. You have the answer to everything and surely could never make an error or mistake, in your estimation. Nobody is perfect, and you will be found wanting some day, sooner or later. We over 60's do not have the arrogance to think we are better than you, as good will do, thank you. Our depth of experience weighs in the balance.
Delayed last week by an oversleeping F/O, by the way.........

[JW411]

I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but I will anyway!

On a previous thread I related the tale of the young F/O who fell asleep on me between the OM and 500 feet. He was there with me at the approach fix but he had gone 1,000 feet later.

I also related the tale of the young F/O who fell asleep on me during an SID from LOWW and HE was the PF not the PNF!

I also cannot tell you how many times I and the rest of the crew have been standing there at checkout in the hotel lobby while young lochinvar has had to be dragged out of bed claiming that he doesn't understand Zulu (or UTC if you insist).

[poina]

777,
Have you perhaps read any posts by 411a, hows that for arrogance? Read before you post.

[lambourne]

Delayed last week by an oversleeping F/O, by the way.........

Delayed last week due to over 60 Captain forgetting his passport at home. Flight departed 1+20 late thanks to his old age kicking in. That little error cost our company 200+ connections. They should deduct the cost out his pay.

Same for a flight from Europe to the states that was canceled a couple of weeks ago. Gummer Captain had to go to hospital for chest pains on layover. Return flight canceled at a significant cost to the company. The only good news is it appears the antique pilot will not be returning to the cockpit. One victory for the good guys!

[MPH]

Never mistake knowledge for wisdom. One helps you make a living; the other helps you make a life! :D

[protectthehornet]

lambourne

I was delayed over 3 hours by a 30 year old woman copilot who forgot her purse somewhere and had to wait for a telex from the FAA for her ticket.

She was flying with another captain and stuck in KMDW.

As I picked up the second half of the trip, she was my copilot from KIAD to KMDW and I briefed the approach. Circling to land (VMC ) at night in snow. Made approach to runway 4, made right traffic for 13 and I told her as soon as we start to circle and leave the first localizer, to tune up the landing runway ILS and slew the HSI course selector to the landing runway course.

She said she had never heard of that.

When we got on the ground I explained to her that using an ILS at night to confirm glideslope and proper runway at a critical length field might be a good idea...and as she was just sitting there would it be too much trouble for her to do it.

She was 30 and didn't know too much about flying or about keeping track of her purse.

[lambourne]

She was 30 and didn't know too much about flying or about keeping track of her purse.

Your company hired her. Only one airline flies IAD to MDW and that is WN. Seems everyone has to have a type rating to work there....Is this a product of the pay for training that takes place at SWA?

Speaking of MDW did you guys get those auto brakes figured out yet? Rode SWA many years ago. It was -300 and recall the A/T being covered because SWA didn't want to train you guys how to use the thing. Must have realized it was they were going to raise the age. Can't teach OLD dogs new tricks.


Also, SWA is the evil empire that was hard and fast to allow two old gummers on domestic flights. Exactly what I would want, TWO 64 year olds flying me around! If I was going to some obscure SWA destinaintion then I would opt for the next flight versus the geriatric ward flying me around.

[protectthehornet]

the incident I am talking about happened about 10 years ago and our airline flew from KIAD to KMDW. We no longer do that ''run''. And I don't fly for southwest.

your airline hired the gummers and can fire them if they don't fly well...don't be afraid to report someone who really isn't cutting the mustard.

[protectthehornet]

hotel charlie

haven't you been reading the thread? if lambourne can make fun of an old guy who lost his passport and its delay, why can't i point out how a young person delayed a flight LONGER cuz she didn't have her ticket. I added that it was a woman, since most guys don't carry their licenses in their purse...you may be an exception.

[lambourne]

So your story is that you had a female FO having a bad day, 10 years ago!!!
Come on give me a break! You haven't broken a nail on your pinky too have you?
Today 16:47

In his defense, the senile old pilots think 10 years ago was yesterday. Isn't that a sign of Alzheimers, clearly remembering the past but having trouble with something current?

The stories I presented all took place within the past couple of months, or as the gummers like to think....a moment ago.

In addition to being out of touch, hornet is also a fine example of a sexist. I bet all the GILF's at the retirement home are goning to love him.

[protectthehornet]

Lambourne:

you have proven your worth. 10 years ago ; I still remember it as well as if it were yesterday. Alzheimers is a serious condition and you are tacky to use that illness/condition for your own gains.

That female pilot ended up furloughed. Hey, maybe she went to your airline and you will fly with her someday...hope your not late.

Sad little Lambourne. no one plays with him anymore. now go take a time out, put the dunce cap on your head and turn away from the class.

[parabellum]

I think it is time for a reality check. Read again what lambourne says about his attitude and behavior towards senior captains between the ages of sixty and sixty five.

Do any of you really think that any self respecting senior captain or any decent airline would let him continually get away with it? Maybe there are a couple of milder and meeker captains who would let his behavior pass but the vast majority of senior captains are thoroughly competent and capable people who, with flight safety in mind, would be down on him like a ton of bricks, then the word would get around. It would only be necessary for lambourne to be thrown off flights twice and he would get a 'Please Explain' letter and an interview with management, certainly in a properly run airline.

lambourne is a dreamer, he is telling us what he would like to do, (and we are rising to the bait!), the fact that he chooses to fly as an FO when he could be in command says a lot too. lambourne is in fantasy land, he is a Walter Mitty and he needs professional help.

[protectthehornet]

all you gummers out there ;-)

remember the bill murray movie, "Stripes" (nice shot of a military sabreliner taxiing in/T39)?

Remember the guy known as PSYCHO...Don't touch me or my stuff or I'll kill you?

Lambourne and PSYCHO...cut from the same cloth.

What we need is Sgt. Hulka to tell Lambourne to knock it off francis.

[Jetdriver]

This topic has degenerated into pure "Jetblast" material.

Get it back on topic in three moves or less, or that is where it goes.

[Airmike767]

In my last organization there was a 69 year old flight examiner, he is tops on his profession and a very popular Captain as well with those in the trenches every day. I just pulled the plug at 62.5 because it ceased to be fun!

Every pilot should be judged on his merits and medical the rest is foolish and unfair.

[Capt Claret]

Pretty much all the over 60 pilots on this board consider themselves to be better than the younger ones in all areas, and do not suffer from anything age related.

I disagree. I've quoted silly things done by young F/Os I've flown with. Not to suggest that young pilots are stupid but to illustrate that for every silly thing done by an oldie, one can detail a silly thing done by a youngster.

It's the ageist view that is offensive. Merit, performance, medical competency, and desire to do the job, should be the pre-requisites, not some arbitrary age.

[rubik101]

Having managed to get older, now 60, and hopefully wiser, especially regarding such lunacy as trying to party until 3 hours before transport (as I'm sure many of you of all ages have done in the past) I find that advancing years have endowed me with the ability to sleep much more readily and soundly than in the past. I have also manged to control my alcohol intake and my diet such that I am probably fitter and more sober than at any time in the past 40 years.
I do more daily exercise than ever before and in my spare time I play a better game of golf than previously. As for my mental condition, well, I would judge that it is pretty much as good as, if not even better than, it was 30 years ago when it was befuddled on several occasions with too much booze, the effects of which turn even the most enthusiatic and apparently competent youth into a gummer.
I stopped flying at 59 because a) I could afford to, b) I emigrated and c) I began a new, philanthropic career. Had I chosen to do so, I'm certain that I could have continued flying several more years, maybe even to 65 and beyond.
I would only suggest that if anyone wants to continue the same stamina sapping regime as for the past 40 odd years, without savouring the fruits of a well earned retirement, you need your head examined!

[ManaAdaSystem]

We all know that medical examinations are 99% about the body, and next to nothing about what is going on between the ears.
It's all taken care of in the sim? Not so, all it takes is a buddy examiner and you will pass.

15 years ago I flew with a captain who used personal checklists in order to remember the ordinary checklist. He was eventually removed from flight duty because of a number of reports from his Effohs.
Do that today, and you get hauled into the office for age discrimination/bullying by your local 411A.
This captain had been protected by his buddies for years.

Aging is real. Pretending it's not doesn't change this FACT! :}

[lambourne]

lambourne is a dreamer, he is telling us what he would like to do, (and we are rising to the bait!), the fact that he chooses to fly as an FO when he could be in command says a lot too. lambourne is in fantasy land, he is a Walter Mitty and he needs professional help

Fortunately my company doesn't discipline someone for FOLLOWING sop's. I have received no negative job performance comments and exist very happily in my job. The sport of pimping the aged is like a well flown descent. You can do it so the passengers never know it has been done until they are near the ground. Same with old pilot tipping, most don't figure out how much they are disliked until they are in the car driving home.

As it sands now the age is 65 and that is more than plenty. Any thought to raising it will have serious safety effects on the worlds airlines. No matter what you old guys think you are NOT performing better now than you were at 45.

[411A]

...for age discrimination/bullying
You forgot...sacking.:E

[ManaAdaSystem]

Thanks for proving my point, 411A!

In you fantasy airline it doesn't matter, but demented pilots in the RL cockpit is certainly no joke. Flying with one is a nightmare!

[parabellum]

all it takes is a buddy examiner and you will pass.


In a decent airline they don't exist, either you can do it or you get put up for a re-check and all that entails. Both you, Manad. and lambourne sound, from the tales you relate, as though you work for 'fringe' outfits, not proper airlines.

Reintroducing 65 is good, with the option to leave at 60 or anywhere between 60 and 65. Personally I don't think extending to 70 is realistic.

[Green Guard]

Aging is real. Pretending it's not doesn't change this FACT!

Are you trying to tell us that you're feeling it sooo MUCH ?

[ZimmerFly]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/426060-ba-pax-tried-halt-777-take-off-after-taxiing-error.html

Captain age 44, Co-Pilot age 39.

No "Gummers" involved ! :E

[Capt Claret]

Touché ZimmerFly, touché.

Claret - fast approaching gummerhood. :rolleyes:

[lambourne]

Captain age 44,

44 and a BA pilot = 65 in regular people years <tic>. We have an ex-LEC chairman at our company from the UK. He's late 40's and is hated as much as our average over 60 pilot. Definitely thick by any measure.

[LongBeachTrijet]

If this reaches the US, there should be fences established so that raising the age limit doesn't cause furloughs this time. Fat chance with all of the senior old farts at ALPA.

[MartinCh]

Doesn't majority of men in 'Western world' die in their 70s and women tend to live bit longer?

How far does it have to go before we see the news of Captains keeling over (and not just to take a brief nap in cruise) more often? Deteriorating mental skills and don't happen overnight and definitely not just last year or two of the person's life.

Why are there rules about the max age of FO with old Captain? Why should it matter, both still alive, or not? At least at the time of departure. If it's utterly impossible for senior Captain to faint/die inflight at the same time as his FO, then why make such rules about age ratio on flight deck?

Why not enjoy recreational flying in retirement, do some instructing or whatever that is, still within aviation?

[protectthehornet]

and its unlikely that all engines will quit on any one flight...oh, but that does happen, doesn't it?

[Stearperson]

md80fanatic


Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Austin, TX USA
Age: 48
Posts: 75 Is this the disease of the day? To demand a fast track to everything, without putting forth even 20% of the time and effort that the previous generation had to struggle through, whilst simultaneously demanding the same pay + adjustments?

I wonder if this sense of entitlement and gross disrespect for knowledgeable elders extends into the cockpit? Those who complain should wait their turn and be thankful that they have a flying job at all in this economy.


People like you are absolutely amazing. I suspect the airline you fly for has 20 year F.O.s and you think they are seeking instant gratification.
I will challenge you to who had more expirience and setbacks and time spent in career before upgrade.
Currenty I have 10 years as a major airline F.O. and am in the bottom 10% of the F.O. list. No hope of uprade for at least 6 years.
I came to my current job with over 10,000 hours.
I was basically fired in a merger with a company named after a country so your employees would be spared.
Those captains flying over 60 were hired on age 60 retirements and upgraded on age 60 retirements and now they say people who want to upgrade are impatient.
As for being lucky to have a job I have always had a job,worked hard,networked and demontrated a good work ethic. None of that was to due to luck.
Many of todays pilots have put in 200% of the effort those before them put in only to languish in the right seat for decades. Its shocking to see how many pilots are on the wrong side of this argument.
This is a truly a safety issue. Very few pilots I fly with are as good at 60 as they were at 35-50.
I would have liked to see them lower the retirement age to 55.
Then I could enjoy just a few years in the left seat then gotten out of this business.

[protectthehornet]

I care........

[dc10fr8k9]

Divide and conquer. And so the airline execs win again, pitting old against young. We ought to really be discussing the merits (or lack of) of 70 year old Flight Attendants. There I say, come on old gal, time to retire and give your granddaughter a chance at the job!

[md80fanatic]

Stearperson,

I don't fly for anyone (non-pilot) but I do work in a field where apprenticeship is the way things are done. I have never before heard the level of hatred displayed on this thread toward those who should be respected, and decided to come out from the shadows and comment. My apologies if I left the impression that I share your profession, it was not intended.

[cavortingcheetah]

I'm sure I could rise to the challenge but I am not sure that over the age of sixty five, I'd like to face a roster which consisted of five weeks of earlies with each day being a six sector day through February and January in northern Europe again. What I do know for sure though is that I'd like a jolly good bloke as a first officer with me if I were ever faced with such a timetable. If I were intending to be slightly rude I suppose I could say that having read through quite a lot of the previous pages I'm not at all sure that there isn't a good argument to extend the flying age to seventy just to keep some of today's first officers out of the left hand seat. As for seventy year old flight attendants, it's a good idea, far less of an opportunity for cavorting cheaters down route.

[Murexway]

I voluntarily retired six years ago at 58 and missed it for only the first year. After that, I've always been glad that I don't have to put up with the baloney any more. But the flying and camaraderie were great and I'll always miss that part.

As for any increase past age 65, only folks without a life outside of the airline would want to keep at it ..... and those folks will want to go on forever.

For you young guys, your best shot lies in getting any age extension tied to tougher medical standards enforcement. IMO, the standard U.S. 1st class physical given by many AME's is a joke. I've had many docs over the years.... some great and some that passed you if you could sign the check.

Good Luck!

[Lost in Saigon]

Here is a short story that has some relevance to the question of retirement age...

A farmer went out one day and bought a brand new stud rooster for his chicken coop.

The new rooster struts over to the old rooster and says,
' Okay old fart, time for you to retire.'

The old rooster replies, ' Come on, surely you cannot handle ALL of these chickens. Look what it has done to me.

Can't you just let me have the two old hens over in the corner ? '
The young rooster says, 'beat it, you are washed up and I am taking over.'

The old rooster says, ' I tell you what, young stud. I will race you around the farmhouse.
Whoever wins gets the exclusive domain over the entire chicken coop.'

The young rooster laughs. ' You know you don't stand a chance, old man.
So, just to be fair, I will give you a head start.'

The old rooster takes off running. About 15 seconds later the young rooster takes off running after him.

They round the front porch of the farmhouse and the young rooster has closed the gap.

He is only about 5 feet behind the old rooster and gaining fast.


The farmer, meanwhile, is sitting in his usual spot on the front porch when he sees the roosters running by.

The old rooster is squawking loudly and running as hard as he can.

The Farmer grabs his shotgun and ~ BOOM ~
he blows the young rooster to bits.
The farmer sadly shakes his head and says,

'Dammit - - - third gay rooster I bought this month'


MORAL OF THIS STORY
Do not mess with the OLD FARTS
Age, skill, wisdom and a little treachery
Will always overcome youth and arrogance!

[WhatsaLizad?]

Here is a short story that has some relevance to the question of retirement age...


Not really. It might have some relevance to situations where a middle aged man is dealing with a impulsive teenager. I fail to see how it relates to a 50 year old FO with 25 years in heavy jets.

Come back and tell the same story in another week after you've forgotten that you already shared your whitty yarn.

[protectthehornet]

lost in saigon...thanks for the laugh

[billyt]

Well I enjoyed it Saigon. Lightened up a boring topic.

[Whirlybird]

I loved it, Saigon. And it's EXTREMELY relevant.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Following WW-II BOAC recruited pilots of similar age and experience, all jolly good chaps who had been recruited into the Air Force in more or less the same short time span, so who should be Captains and who co-pilots ?

It was even before my time, but I believe it was more or less first through the door were Captains, and then the rest became co-pilots, so that this latter group would reach retirement - then age 55 - at the same time as those lucky enough to get the command slots, and never get promoted, so finally, after a few years a deal was struck whereby for every really old - i.e. 55 - Captain 2 co-pilots were promoted. They were called Captains X and would often be rostered together, one in command outbound, and the other in command homebound.

I was a P.3 / Nav on the 707 whilst this procedure was still working its' way through the seniority lists, and one day flew with a left hand seat Captain X who announced that this was his first trip on his own after just completing his conversion to the 707, and asked the crew to ' keep an eye on him ' Early CRM !

With no serious navigation to be done between London and Rome, I read the newspapers and then climbed into the P.3 jump seat for the approach to Rome, to notice that nothing had been done by way of approach checks, and that the right hand seat Capt X was silently tapping the check-list on his knee. I prompted the L.H. seat Capt X who then called for the approach check list.

After landing he asked me if I needed to navigate between Rome and Singapore, and on the route we would follow there was no pure nav. requirement, and he then asked the R.H. seat capt X why he hadn't reminded him to start the checks - would he have allowed him to land gear up for instance ? Of course, was the reply, you're the Captain, you didn't ask for any checks. !! At which the L.H. seat capt X told him to f**k off to the cabin for the rest of the trip, and I would be co -pilot from there to Singapore.

Of course I wasn't exactly relishing the trip home, when the Command roles would be reversed, but whilst flight planning at Singapore the original R.H. seat Capt X was berating the staff as to why they hadn't briefed him before we left the hotel, as was the habit. The original L.H. seat Capt X said " I was de-X'd last week, I'm still in command, f**k off again.

I was co-pilot all the way back home, too !

Happy Days, but the above scenario, even with the Capts. X alleviating the problem a little, meant that many co-pilots were only promoted shortly before retiring, I waited 16 years, to over age 40, and was actually luckier than a lot.

[ManaAdaSystem]

I enjoy your stories, Exsp33, but while we are talking about the air force, can you update me on the number of 60 year (and older) active fighter pilots in RAF?

[lambourne]

This thread has turned into the average broadcast (attempted conversation) by the gummers I fly with. The "I remember when.....", "Once I was.....", "We used to..." Of course these events are all somewhat ancient. They regale the past as if was yesterday, but ask them something that actually happened yesterday and they draw a blank stare.

They mostly don't have a clue about current procedures or SOP's. We have had several significant procedural changes in our callouts and actions. These were turned on last year and to this date not ONE gummer I have flown with has used the correct verbiage or checklist procedure. The few guys we have that are under 60 seem to be able to adapt and adjust to the change. The old coots are clueless or they give me my favorite line:"I'm out of here in two years, I don't care if I do it correctly", "They don't PAY me enough to change or read the changes"

Yes we wouldn't know how to run the airline without you......:p:p:p

[protectthehornet]

fighter pilots and age don't matter for this thread. while younger folks are needed for those beautiful fighters, if you maneuvered a transport like a fighter you would knock off the tail like on that POS Airbus 300 in JFK.


relevence zero

[WhatsaLizad?]

I loved it, Saigon. And it's EXTREMELY relevant

Gotta say it's funny too. Old, but funny.

As for the debate, it would be funny if we were discussing Age 65+ with a bunch of early 20's First Officers. That might be the case with the members of some carriers here on this board. In that case I'd have to agree it's probably relevant at those carriers.

In the USA however, it's not relevant, and comes across fairly arrogant if applied to many US carriers.

Like any joke, the audience has to be there for it to be funny for all. it surely doesn't apply at my carrier. Many of the First Officers have as much or more command experience as Commander of heavy jets as the Captains they fly with. That might confuse 411A.

[ExSp33db1rd]

I enjoy your stories, Exsp33, but while we are talking about the air force, can you update me on the number of 60 year (and older) active fighter pilots in RAF?

Not a clue, left the RAF in 1957.

But ...... the very old Captains that I had to fly with when I moved to the airline, were probably only in their mid 40's at that time, but to a 23 yr. old seemed ancient, however they had to retire at 55 regardless of their physical attributes, and of course were usually ex-Bomber pilots and Transport pilots, not fighter pilots, tho' we had some Mossie Pathfinders' too.

Complete with medals.

But ...... it should not be the mere label of a Calendar Age that is the criteria, if a 61 yr old can meet the medical, and other stringent requirements to handle a front line fighter, why not ? tho' I accept that it is extremely unlikely that one would.

You don't post your age, I'm not ashamed of mine, even tho' I would like it to be 30 years less, just guessing but I'll be interested to hear your opinion in 30 years time !

Cheers.

[ManaAdaSystem]

I'm 40, but I feel like I'm in my 20's. In my head.
But I can't go on the piss like I did when I was 20 without having a near death situation the next day, and I need roughly twice as much light in order to see the same as a 20 year old when it's dark.
Yet my doctor never checks my night vision, just how well I see in a brightly lit office.
I don't FEEL my age, but I'm aware that I have a 40 year old body, unlike most Gummers (that name caught immediately) in here who think they still have the brain and body of a 20 year old.

Aging is real, like it or not. Dr Anthony says old people don't make mistakes, and they don't need the reflexes of a younger person because of this. Well, old people do make mistakes just like everyone else, and close to V1 you can't sit back and analyze what to do if an engine quits.

And a Gummer did fly into a mountain in Pakistan, killing over 150 people in what appears to be a fully serviceable aircraft.

[411A]

And a Gummer did fly into a mountain in Pakistan, killing over 150 people in what appears to be a fully serviceable aircraft.
One wonders what his twenty-something First Officer was doing while all that was going on....?

[ManaAdaSystem]

One wonders what his twenty-something First Officer was doing while all that was going on....?

He had probably been subjected to the Gummer "gear up and shut up" procedure.

[ExSp33db1rd]

........I'm 40, but I feel like I'm in my 20's. In my head.



So I made a reasonable guess when wondering what you will think in 30 years time, 70 now being considered as a retirement age.

What would you think if "someone" now decreed that all pilots should be stopped at age 39, irrespective of their individual physical condition ?

and if age alone is to be the criteria, what age ? and who is going to become the God that decides that ? and will you acquiesce with them subserviently ?

At age 64+ I was offered a short-term job as co-pilot to age 65, my first simulator session after a 4 year absence felt just like going home, I renewed my Class 1 med. ATPL and I/Rtg. and thoroughly enjoyed myself for 8 months, and why not if that was what I wanted to do and was physically and technically able to so ?

I can no longer maintain a Class 1 med. and of course that has happened as a result of the ageing process, but not because of any specific, arbitrary birthdate.

[ManaAdaSystem]

and if age alone is to be the criteria, what age ? and who is going to become the God that decides that ? and will you acquiesce with them subserviently ?

We have had an age limit of 60, and it served us well. This is/was well known territory, most pilots made that limit, but we are now moving into an experimental phase where safety is at stake. The medical does not focus on what is going on (or not) between the ears, and it does not really look for age related issues, like a poorer night vision or increased reaction time.

Do you guys not have a life apart from flying? Hobbies, travel, family? It used to be a privilege to retire at 60. Go out and do something! Something else!

To answer you other question, in 30 years I really hope the only place I'll be in the aircraft is the cabin, sipping a GT.
Unlike our company Gummers, I'm sure I'll get a jump seat ride if I need it. No over 60 pilots will ever sit on mine.

[Fareastdriver]

It used to be a privilege to retire at 60

Once upon a time one was paid so that he could retire at 60. There were annual increments, final salary pensions, rock solid careers with rock solid airlines, Accountants have put paid to that, They are the ones who can retire at 60; and their lawyers.

[MPH]

The average age of life expectancy has through the ages been going up from 40, 50, 60 till the actual average of 76 years. So, we as humans seem to be getting better at living longer. Agreed, we have also advanced in medical terms, quality of life, etc. The age issue is not only about pension plans and setting up limits to retirement. It has also been adjusted to the individual necessities’, financial requirements, etc. At what age do we establish that limit if, we are compliant with all the requirements? Difficult answer and one which will bring much controversy!!!!

[protectthehornet]

FAREASTDRIVER

you are right.

this whole business is down to money. retirement at age 60 was fine...if you got the retirement promised.

now, the promise is gone...and no one got in trouble, no punishment. management got theirs...we didn't get ours. the fun is gone...things had a natural way of taking care of things...now its money.

there should simply be no age limit on flying...pass your tests, medical and practical...and keep on flying.

make the tests as hard as you like...but everyone will take the same tests....23 to 100plus.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Do you guys not have a life apart from flying? Hobbies, travel, family?


Had all of that, still have, except that now I have to pay to enjoy all of my hobbies ! ( used to paid to enjoy the main one )


going up from 40, 50, 60 till the actual average of 76 years.


!!!!! Goodbye, Cruel World ( 76 tomorrow ! )

[goldfish85]

The stated reason in the preamble to the original rule on Age 60 was to avoid sudden incapacitation. What is the most common form of incapacitation you might ask. According to an FAA report it is digestive problems.

Take a look at the Qantas incapacitation a couple of years ago. The crew ent out for sushi the night before and the Captain became incapacitated a couple of hours into the flight. The F/O continued on for many hours, overflying suitable airports and landed (feeling queasy).

Let's solve real problems.


Goldfish

[ManaAdaSystem]

And what is very common among older people? Digestive problems!

BTW, happy birthday ExSp33db1rd!

[protectthehornet]

yes, happy birthday ex speed bird. you flew during the golden time....at best its bronze now

[ExSp33db1rd]

Thank you, I'll beware of the cake !

[AerospaceTechnology]

Hey, if you're 80, experienced, fit, competent and 'drug-free', why not continue flying professionally. I would rather fly with a physically and mentally fit 80 year old than a 25 y/o recreational drug user any day.

Retirement age should always be the 'workers' prerogative

Keep medical standards high and age then, would not be an issue

[skol]

As I've mentioned before on this forum we have over 65 and a few 70 year old F/O's a couple of whom are not faring too well but hang in there anyway for some unknown reason.
They don't go back to another type to stay in the left seat because they'll fail the type rating.
If the grey matter between their ears is decayed enough to prevent them doing a type rating it probably means that the 'experience' that's always mentioned has probably decayed as well.
I've got personal experience of this decay, they should give it a miss.
I'd cringe to the nth degree if what is said about these guys was said about me.

[MPH]

Hey ExSp33db1rd: I did say average!!!! Both sides of 76 get it?

[ExSp33db1rd]

Ahhh ! I'll remember that tomorrow, if some guy with a long beard and a scythe turns up.

[parabellum]

As I've mentioned before on this forum we have over 65 and a few 70 year old F/O's


So which Australian airline would that be then, SKOL?

[JW411]

ManaAdaSystem:

"We have had an age limit of 60, and it served us well".

B*llox.

I personally flew very productively until my 65th birthday and I enjoyed every minute of it.

My company simply kept me out of French airspace.

You are probably too young to remember it but the retirement age was 65 when I started my flying career.

[Fareastdriver]

A little snippet from the BBC today.

BBC News - Cost of ageing population 'needs re-calculating' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11243976)

[CptnJoao]

I'm a 25 year old unemployed commercial pilot. I don't blame the older Pilots for the lack of jobs, but a failed economic system worldwide. With that being said, I do think that some, not all older pilots tend to cling on well past the "right time" to give it up. And if you put yourself in their shoes, you would probably do the same. Retirement should be brought on by a lack of medical aptitude. However, with all of this talk of experience, How did these "old" pilots get their experience? Probably by being in the right seat. An opportunity I have yet to have. So, for the sake of the next generation of pilots and in a way, for the future of aviation, a reasonable mandatory retirement age (65 or less) should be in effect. Giving pilots an extra 5 years of work whilst allowing younger pilots to be fed into the ranks so they can absorb and learn from the out going pilots. So if you older gentleman can pass on some of your experience/knowledge to younger f/o's and retire in time to actually enjoy retirement. I would appreciate it!

[ExSp33db1rd]

CptnJoao

Nicely put. The only way to get experience is by experience.

I was promoted to command after 16 years, and shortly afterwards noticed that one of my old (!! relatively of course ) Captains had just retired at the then Company compulsory age of 55, and wrote to wish him well and added my thanks for all the tips and hints that he had passed on to me during the many flights I had experienced with him over the years.

I got an almost emotional reply to the effect that he valued my letter far more than the Politically Correct ( tho' the term hadn't been invented then ) bullsh*t and sentimentality from the Management. ( he should be so lucky, I never even got that ! I sometimes wonder if 'they' even realise that I've gone, 'cept of course 'they've' stopped paying me ! )

Best of luck, it's the best job in the World. ( tho' if I were still flying I'd probably be in jail now, courtest of the US TSA, there's no way I could keep my mouth shut and put up with the cr*p you all have to endure everyday, just to do your job, once a year on holiday is hard enough to take )

[Pugilistic Animus]

The funny thing with the pilot community---that regardless of age---to the casual observer; it might appear---that every one is just transitioning from the DC6 to the 707 despite the fact that planes have gotten so easy....missing radio calls, stalls, landing on taxiways, structural failures,....right back to the classics regardless of age:}

[airjet]

:D:D:D Good post cptn joao i flew A320`s until 65, and even though i was mentally still agile, at that age certain things become very difficult if not impossible for example climbing into an emer raft (mind you there are lots of F/O`s in the same "boat") this topic is like politics both sides opinions will never change but youngsters who spout crap about medicals and safety, when thier real reason is they just want quicker promotion, are a disgrace to "flying" there was a day when ALL pilots were a "band of brothers" and willing to go to any lenghts to help each other.:)
ask yourself--when have i ever heard of a older pilot dying at the controls
and even more important "will i as F/O be able to handle it if its a dark and stormy night":hmm:

[PappyJ]

!!!!! Goodbye, Cruel World ( 76 tomorrow ! )

ExSp33db1rd... Did you make it?

[WhatsaLizad?]

this topic is like politics both sides opinions will never change but youngsters who spout crap about medicals and safety, when thier real reason is they just want quicker promotion, are a disgrace to "flying" there was a day when ALL pilots were a "band of brothers" and willing to go to any lenghts to help each other

If you're residence is FL as is mine, you must be in complete denial as to the effects of aging that we witness daily with the aging population of our state.

About every 3 weeks or so there is a picture in the newspaper of a car in a swimming pool or inside a 7/11 store usually driven by a senior citizen who just got the pedals wrong that day. None seem to be the result of sudden incapacitation. I bet if you asked each one of these drivers a few minutes before their mishaps if they have any problems with age and driving, they'd probably tell you to #$% off, and that they are ok to drive.

Personally, the effects of fatigue on senior pilots is a greater threat than sudden incapacitation.

[parabellum]

About every 3 weeks or so there is a picture in the newspaper of a car in a swimming pool or inside a 7/11 store usually driven by a senior citizen who just got the pedals wrong that day. None seem to be the result of sudden incapacitation. I bet if you asked each one of these drivers a few minutes before their mishaps if they have any problems with age and driving, they'd probably tell you to #$% off, and that they are ok to drive.

You are comparing apples to oranges. You cannot compare the pilot work force with every other option and range of health and motor skills. Even if you could compare the two groups the only ones that would count among the crashed car brigade are the ones under seventy.

[lambourne]

Just completed a jungle tour with a 62 year old gummer. F-ing exhausting. At no point in his two turns at bat did he attempt to flare the airplane. Speculating that if he was an MD11 pilot, he and others would be dead.

In addition to the poor flying skills he could not understand any of the atc calls. He would miss a call, I would say," that was for us", he looks at me like I'm from mars, I repeat about the same time atc is calling again, he misses again because he still hasn't comprehended what I said to him. I answer Atc, read back and he finally gives me the look a baby has when it has pooped it's pants, but doesn't fully understand repercussions. A mindless, "thanks, don't know why I am having trouble understanding them....". Really? No idea? Could it be that you are too fricking old to still be working?

The guy was so slow I left him at the airport twice and took my own transport to hotel. Tired of waiting 15 minutes at the curb as he tried to find his way out of the terminal. It is as if he is going through life with one turn singnal flashing.

A real role model this clown is. What a disgrace to aviation and mankind. Hope he settles down for the dirt nap sooner rather than later.

[ExSp33db1rd]

!!!!! Goodbye, Cruel World ( 76 tomorrow ! )

ExSp33db1rd... Did you make it?

I guess as I didn't wake up to find myself dead this morning, I must have !!

( Thanks )

[johns7022]

So what's the argument here? Putting 200 hr abinitio pilots in the cockpit is safer then senior citizens?

The only people fighting older pilots in the cockpits are the kids that want a vacant seat to fly.....that's it......