KI-256 horizon repair

[IO540]

Can anyone recommend a UK instrument shop which can repair the above (it takes 10 mins to erect) to a high standard, but without messing with the electronics otherwise I have to get the autopilot recalibrated?

I have a couple of names (not replying to emails yet) but wonder if there is another good place.

[S-Works]

I know not UK but take a look at Straubing in Germany. They did one of our work ones, completely overhauled in under a week including overnight shipping each way for less than £400 plus vat.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Can anyone recommend a UK instrument shop which can repair the above (it takes 10 mins to erect) to a high standard, but without messing with the electronics otherwise I have to get the autopilot recalibrated?


I am assuming you have a FKC 150/200/225 autopilot. The good news is I am pretty sure there is no requirement to do any autopilot adjustment if the instrument is replaced. After overhaul the instrument is simply reconnected and remounted back in the panel. The bad news is that Bose X must be talking about a light plane aircraft AI with no autopilot or FD outputs. Fixing the king units is very expensive. A fellow I know has a C340 with a KFC 200. His KI256 was also slow to erect and the bill to overhaul the gyro bits was USD 1900. He had the work done by a very well regarded shop in California. You can pm me for contact details if you are interested.
BTW his first thought was to just get an overhaul exchange instrument untill he found it was going to cost USD 5500 :eek:. KIng radio also helpfully suggested he could buy a new unit for just over over USD 10,000 :rolleyes:

[IO540]

BPF - it is the KFC225 and you do have to adjust the pitch/roll nulls which are two trimpots in the side of the KC225 computer.

Whether this is actually needed depends on how much different the "repaired" KI-256 is.

A new KI-256 is $11k :) I once paid $3k for an overhaul exchange unit from the USA but this is a waste of money because one can get the mechanics (only) sorted for a few hundred £ here in the UK.

California... Mid Continent? They did my current unit, 200hrs ago. It came 2 degrees out in roll. I had no choice but to install it and fly with it, but this time I will get it fixed properly.

I wish I had a spare unit (I have loads of spares for exchange purposes) but this is one spare I haven't got.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I0540

Several of my frends of had good experiences with Pacific Southwest Avionics.
I have never heard a good word about Mid Continent....

The killer is the cost of parts. King just absolutely rapes its customers and now they are out of the autopilot business the company "give a shyte" for supporting existing units seems to be rapidly diminishing........

Re adjustment after the install, I stand corrected. The shop told my friend to fly after the install to see if any adjustments were needed. As it turned out the unit worked perfectly :ok:

[IO540]

Just looked up the pricing (http://www.seaerospace.com/lc/cart.php?target=productDetails&model=KI-256&substring=ki-256). The -01 version is now $24k new :mad:

[englishal]

G500/600...no moving parts ;):ok:

[IO540]

Indeed, as well as the EFD-1000 (when that gets certified as a KI-256 replacement), but how long will these keep running after your alternator fails? It hangs on how big the backup battery is. 30 mins is not enough for real IFR involving long flights.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Indeed, as well as the EFD-1000 (when that gets certified as a KI-256 replacement), but how long will these keep running after your alternator fails? It hangs on how big the backup battery is. 30 mins is not enough for real IFR involving long flights.

The Aspen is allready certified to replace the KI 256 and KCS55 with full autopilot/FD functionality. You will need to fit an additional seperate airdriven AI so an electrical failure will leave you in the same place as your current set up.

[IO540]

They told me at Friedrichshafen (April) they haven't got it yet. It seemed a complicated story. Also, while being N-reg I am less keen to do something which would be unapprovable on an EASA-reg.

[S-Works]

The bad news is that Bose X must be talking about a light plane aircraft AI with no autopilot or FD outputs.

No, I was actually talking about a full flight director integrated unit one as fitted to the Dornier. We found Straubing very easy to deal with and very fast. They may be able to help, maybe not. I was just offering it into the pot for consideration.

[IFollowRoads]

I have two of these (with FD) lying around, but if you want to have yours done, try AEROLAB AVIATION SERVICES / KI-256,* KI-525A,* KG-102,* KVG-350,* REPAIR, SERVICES & OVERHAUL (http://www.aerolabaviation.com/)

[englishal]

Indeed, as well as the EFD-1000 (when that gets certified as a KI-256 replacement), but how long will these keep running after your alternator fails? It hangs on how big the backup battery is. 30 mins is not enough for real IFR involving long flights.
Well with the G5/600 you have the original backup instruments too. So in theory if you have a vacuum system you could have a vacuum AI as backup, so that in the event of alternator failure, when the aircraft battery goes flat you will still have AI. If you have electric backup AI like the Diamonds do then yes, your backup battery must work for 30 mins.

We have had some decent quotes for a G500 fit and if we go ahead and do it our backup instrumentation will consist of Vacuum AI, external CDI with GS linked to a G430w, Garmin Aera 550 running on aircraft power and battery power. So if the G500 fails we're not much worse off than a conventional instrument aeroplane, and if the alternator goes we can continue to fly for hours if we wanted, certainly long enough to find VFR and / or land. If the engine fails completely then the aeroplane battery should provide power long enough until we hit the deck :}

Actually the G500 represents very good value for money. The cost of the unit itself if around $14000 and this effectively gives EHSI/AI along with MFD, plus the ability to overlay whatever other data you need to overlay. PLus fitting of course but to upgrade our aeroplane to G500, including completely new panel, GTS800 active traffic system, 430w, EDM930 primary engine instruments etc etc. would take about a month and not be prohibitively expensive. Would certainly be a lot cheaper if you already have IFR approved kit onboard your aeroplane and opted not to have a traffic system or EDM930.

I played with the G500 at AeroExpo thanks to Lees Avionics, and it is a lovely bit of kit, with much the same functionality of the G1000. With the EDM930 the upgrade to our aeroplane would effectively give the same instrumentation as many of the DA42's I rent in the USA.

[A and C]

Try Sky Smart Avionics, they have fixed a number of gyros for me at a reasonable cost.

Sky Smart Avionics (http://www.skysmartavionics.co.uk)

[IO540]

Englishal - there is no way I can get a G500 installed for under about £40000, given that I also need a GNSx30W to drive it, and various other "minor" issues. It is a massive job, with 4-8 weeks of downtime and that is if the avionics shop works on it 100% of the time. Also I would not even dream of spending this kind of bundle without getting PRNAV certification but from reports from UK aircraft owners this remains rather elusive... Sure if one had to pay $24k for a KI-256 every time its bearings seize up, that would be a different equation :)

AFAIK, under current rules, one installs a G500 with a "cheap" vacuum horizon next to it, to sidestep the battery backup duration issue. EASA requires the horizon to go horizontally adjacent to the G500's (or EFD-1000's) horizon depiction but I know one owner who told then he will cancel the project so facing the loss of the fees they relented :) It's easier on the N-reg but I would still like an all-electric solution, with an electric horizon driven from a small alternator. A vac pump is another dinosaur which will pack up, not if but when, and "usually" it goes even before the KI-256.

IFollowRoads - I sent you an email; not sure if your antispam system forwarded it, but from the bounceback it turns out that I had already emailed with someone of the same name :)

A&C - thanks - will contact them. I see IAE also advertise this service.

[IO540]

Update:

I sent the unit to Skysmart Avionics (http://www.skysmartavionics.co.uk/index.php)

Most other UK instrument shops never even returned a call...

However I have also made a very interesting discovery...

Castleberry Instruments (http://www.ciamfg.com/index.html) do an electric replacement for the notoriously unreliable vacuum powered KI-256!

The model number is 900-23EVPK and the part number is 504-0027-90501. It looks just like a KI-256 but being electric it has a caging knob.

Their price is also WAY below Honeywell's present eye watering list prices...

I sourced a spare KI-256 -01 Mod 11 from them at a good price. They (John in Sales) communicate well and seem very good.

With a second alternator, or one of these (http://www.bandc.biz/standby-alternator-systems.aspx) standby alternators this should deliver a certifiable total replacement for a vacuum system which, in many airplanes, only drives the KI-256 horizon.

The other thing I discovered, having got my hands on some KI-256 circuit diagrams, is that Mod 11 is highly desirable. It buffers the unit's pitch and roll outputs and should make it far less likely that a KI-256 swap will result in an expensive and hassle-packed autopilot pitch/roll recalibration. Mod 11 cannot be retrofitted and basically you have to get a KI-256 with a S/N above 22475 which has this factory fitted. This has been factory fitted since about year 2000 but this instrument has been made since late 1970s and most overhauled units are thus really ancient.

A lot of people say the only way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with a big one, but looking at the serial numbers on the KI-256 (nearly 30000 now) and its list price of $11k-$24k, it's obvious Honeywell have sold at least $100M's worth of these. And the selling price is about 20x what it costs to make it. There is a whole pile of fantastic cash cows like this in aviation...

[Jan Olieslagers]

There is a whole pile of fantastic cash cows like this in aviation...You can say that again. For one example, about these (http://www.bandc.biz/standby-alternator-systems.aspx) standby alternators 2200 US$ for a bloody alternator turning out a measly 20 Amps, plus another 435 for the installation kit. Even if we're in aviation and the volumes are small and whatever not, this seems quite exaggerated. And if the engine quits, you'll still have to rely on what's left in your battery.

[forget]

It's saddening to see the Castleberry team. Apart from the two youngish ladies all the rest look to be in their fifties and sixties. Where are the young guys to take over as the Team retires? It's a bit like looking in any decent hangar these days - very little young blood. I'm sure Castleberry has tried - but no takers - and so, very soon, one less repair shop for KI256 etc etc.

Team (http://www.ciamfg.com/Team.html)

[IO540]

I think that situation is echoed everywhere.

In most companies, it is only the older people who know what they are doing or what they are talking about.

But I don't think this is a recent thing. In the 1980s I employed 35 people, and while one could always blame this on incompetent recruitment :) it was obvious that the over-40s were taking work much more seriously.

I suppose that in 10-15 years' time the avionics overhaul business will be significantly different, with most of these expensive gyro instruments having been chucked out and replaced by AHRS and "glass" in various forms. But right now these are "bleeding edge" and very expensive options, so it makes sense to overhaul the old stuff for as long as it is economically possible.

[englishal]

It is a shame the G500 won't talk to any other IFR GPS (AFAIK). If it did Garmin would have a much bigger market.

The G500 represents brilliant value for money really. The unit itself only costs about $14,000, and gives you new eHSI, RMI, DI, AI, MFD and will drive your AP. Try buying an HSI and MFD and you have already shelled out more than a G500. Of course add in a 430 at $6000 increases that to say $20k plus fitting. £40k sounds pretty expensive??

[IO540]

Update: I bought an overhauled Mod 11 unit from Castleberry Instruments, so I now have a spare. Arrived in 2 days :ok:

[IO540]

Update:

Installed the overhauled unit from Castleberry Instruments. This was a Mod 11 unit, with the buffered pitch/roll outputs.

It replaced another Mod 11 unit (the ex Mid Continent overhauled one which lasted only ~ 200hrs and which, I am now advised by another overhauler, has duff bearings).

It went in today. NO KFC-225 autopilot adjustments were needed (these are a major hassle, needing the $1400 bus extender, etc, and only one UK avionics shop can do these).

(except the trivial in-flight roll null, done from the front panel, to balance the left/right turn bank angles).

The flight test also went perfectly. I have never had a KI-256 which runs so straight.

The instrument was spot on, out of the box.

So anybody replacing a KI-256, go for Mod 11, and I can certainly recommend this company. Mod 11 cannot be retrofitted; you have to find a unit (post-1999) which has this factory fitted.