CAF Order of 65 F-35: Impact on Recruitment?

[Jumbo744]

Hi,

Last week the CAF announced an order of 65 F-35s. What kind of impact do you think this will have on the air force recruitment? any idea how long they're going to keep the f-18s for?

Jumbo.

[JTrain]

Well, they're going from slightly north of 100 CF-18s to 65 F-35s as front line fighters....you do the math.

As the F-35s are brought on line, the CF-18s will be removed from service.

Obviously its not going to be an exact transition and both types will overlap together in the Canadian Forces for a period of time, but that is the basic trend.

And its hardly unique to Canada - in general the size of most Air Forces is shrinking (gradually). In the USAF, if you are a pilot, you can expect to do at least one tour as a UAV "pilot" - which while it is conductive to the home life, doesn't do anything for your logbook.

Don't feel bad for yourself, feel bad for your grandkids. The F-35 (and F-22) may be the last manned fighters the USAF ever has.

[Jumbo744]

Hello Jtrain,

thanks for your informative reply!

[clunckdriver]

Effect on recruiting? Were I 18 again and looking to fly I dont think I would be looking at the CAF, sixty odd aircraft worth flying, {if you want to fly heavies, stay a civilian} most slots to be taken by RMC grads, no such thing as Spec Aircrew like many airforces, thus a desk or a tent will be your real location, not a fighter cockpit,. Pity we dont have something like the ANG . For those predicting the demise of piloted aircraft I seem to remember a certain large delta being axed by the Government as Bomarcs were going to do it all, same old same old, drones will be with us no doubt, but as been proven as of late, they aint very smart, nor it seems are our politicians who buy this stuff, a single engine aircraft for our country, give your head a shake minister!

[DHC6to8]

The demise of multi engine fighters will not allow West Jet or AC in the future to recruit pilots from the fighter group due to a lack of multi engine experience. The only pilots that will be able to compete within the civilian sector will be the multi engine transport and maritime recon pilots. There might even be reduction in application to fighters due to this. Just look at the German Luftwaffe, the LBA recognizes the Tornado as a single engine aircraft due to the close thrust lines of the two engines (No joke), the Swedish Airforce pilots and the Norweigan Airforce pilots also suffer single engine syndrome from the fighter core. Sweden operates the SAAB Grippen, and Norway the F-16. Earlier the Austrian airforce operated SAAB Draakens and the pilots also had the same problem. Time will tell, but it will definitely be interesting times. I remember reading a document that stipulated the lessons learned from Vietnam which helped direct many NATO countries to operate multi engine fighters due to redundancy etc... a JSF over the high arctic with a bird strike in the engine or a complete engine failure due to mechanical problems etc is going down, not back to the staging area.... and that will be an expensive loss...
As well, given that Canada trains on the Harvard turboprop, the BAe Hawk and then the JSF (in the future).... where is multi engine experience coming into play here with this aircraft constelation in the training?
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[5LY]

So... You're suggesting that the defense dept should prioritise their fleet aquisitions to ensure the career prospects of their recruits?

[clunckdriver]

For those in the various government departments who have decided that close thrust lines do not count as multi time might like to watch the Lethbridge prang!

[GMC1500]

The type of aircraft the govt chooses to purchase will have zero impact on recruitment. As I told my students who inquired about applying to the forces, you join the military because you want to be a military pilot, not because you love flying. Being a military officer comes first, being a pilot is second, always. They will usually leave you wanting more flying, not less, as in civilian flying. And if you want to fly transports, you'll end up flying helicopters. Just ask anyone in the CF.

[bluemic]

DHC6to8 says: The demise of multi engine fighters will not allow West Jet or AC in the future to recruit pilots from the fighter group due to a lack of multi engine experience.

May I jump in on this one?

From the point of view of a 30+ years airline pilot - and as a former military driver with single engine fighter/bomber (and some twin-engine, um, 'fighter') time... (Clunkdriver might know the twin I mean!)

Anyway fwiw (I might be dating myself), whether or not the type one flew in the RCAF/CAF (or whatever/whosever AF) happened to be a single, a twin-with-near-to-the-center donks, a twin with the rotors strung "way out there" or even a multi-engine, lumbering behemoth - it didn't mean much. Not to the airline recruiters of my day.

W-a-a-y back then, all military time was normally considered "good time" and the experience was well respected. (Okay, okay, 'fling wing' time was maybe a tad different!) I'd daresay that the recruiters at my initial airline seemed well aware of the difference between say, an hour in cruise on the Herc; a 60 minute jaunt in the weeds in the Zipper; or a "snap up" intercept mission in the Voodoo. They (the recruiters) knew – again, generally speaking - that the product they were getting from the military was usually of employable quality. (Yours truly being the notable exception 'natch.)

Later, GMC1500 says that " you join the military because you want to be a MILITARY pilot, not because you love flying."

Again, I disagree (but only 'somewhat' as I DO understand where he/she's coming from). I joined the military BECAUSE I thought I would love flying. The 'military' part was coincidental. As it turned out, I wasn't wrong; I enjoyed 99.9% of the experience – even the soldier stuff - and getting to toss around a fast-mover became the icing on the cake.

But, when the prospect of flying a mahogany bomber for Queen and Country began to loom in MY near future, I left for greener or, in my case, 'orange-er', pastures.

Nonetheless, I wouldn't trade a moment...

mic

[DHC6to8]

Hi guys, Mic you have a good point... and I can understand the point of your experience... all I am saying is that the modern day airline recruitment focuses more on multi engine turbine time and is more civilian centered than military centered. The military source of trained pilots has decreased significantly since the military cutbacks (post cold war). I watched as my father came off the F-86 and later the F-104... that was valuable time to the airline recruiters of the day.... in comparison with modern times I have watched military pilots with only Tutor time, Bae Hawk time, jet provost, Drakken, Gripen, F-16 and Tornado time (German Luftwaffe) get turned away due to the lack of multi engine time. For some ridiculous reason the German LBA does not recognise the Tornado, F-5, Eurofighter, and F-18 as multi engine due to the close thrust lines... The pilots I knew who came off the military hardware and really wanted a civilian job went and sat shotgun on a Merlin, King Air and Navajo to get the 1000 hours of multi engine time to make themselves more marketable.... if Canadian military pilots start out on the Harvard turbo prop, then transition to the Bae Hawk, and finally the F-35.... they will have no multi engine time at all when they retire or leave the forces.... the only guys who will have the multi time will be the C-17/Herc/P-3 etc drivers.... I have no idea how the selection for machines will go at wings graduation, but if I was enrolled and could have my choice of machine I would go transport.... it offers the highest level of post military career prospect for guys who want to watch clouds go by at a modern airline. So, for the point of this thread I would say that future fighter pilot (F-35) recruitment at the airlines will be low in comparison to how it was before, in the golden age of Canadian Military aviation. I could be wrong, and I hope I am.... but the airlines are a lot more civilian orientated than they were before....
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