737-300 steep turn

[Low-bypass]

Hey chaps

I was wondering if anybody out there could help with adviced or tips on how to perform steep turns in the 733 sim,I'm busy with the type-rating and I didn't perform well on the manoeuver in today's lesson.Any input is appreciated.Thanx

[cirr737]

Well - pitch&power is everything!
250kts - 3° Pitch 63% N1 is the initial setup

Then start your roll, when passing 30° bank, increase power by 5% to 68% and use the pitch-up moment of power increase to reach 4.5° pitch attitude.

Check that you have 0 vertical speed at that configuration (dont know the targets of your simulator, so you might need to change those values a little bit). When you found the pitch for 0 vertical speed:

NAIL IT THERE! That is the most important part. Pitch stays, correct airspeed with SMALL power changes so you have no influence on pitch.

On rollout passing 30° bank reduce power to 63%, nose will drop back to 3° pitch and you are fine.

To sum up:
1. Stabilize at 250
2. Roll in, passing 30° increase power by 5%, pitch according to 0 V/S
3. KEEP YOUR PITCH, CONTROL SPEED WITH POWER, DON'T TRIM
4. On roll-out passing 30° reduce power back to initial value for straight and level flight at 250, nose will drop by itself with power reduction



Best wishes for your training ;)

[Low-bypass]

Thanks a lot Cirr737 I appreciate your help and will try and make a good use of your advise,I just had the plane all over the place today in doing it.

[ImbracableCrunk]

One more:

Arm rests down, and lock your elbow when you get the pitch set.

[boofhead]

Maintain the angle of bank. Any bank change requires a corresponding pitch change, more so than the other way round. When the airplane is in the turn, don't move anything. The only reason it will not stay steady in the turn is if you move something.
Anyway, bank control is the most important.

[RAT 5]

There will be a large pull force passing 30'. DO NOT TRIM otherwise you'll have a devil of a job rolling out. REMEMBER to adjust pitch passign 30' on rollout.
And when the pipper is on the target press the tit.

[Chesty Morgan]

Sorry to jump in here with absolutely no experience on the 737 but...

Your type rating instructors will have all of the answers. Unless, of course, they're crap at their job, which I doubt.

If they aren't instructing you properly then complain about it.

Do you think that coming on to an anonymous forum asking for advice about flying an airliner is the best solution to your problem?

And before you all have a go at me about asking questions, asking for advice and asking for hints, tips and experience then don't bother. There is nothing wrong with asking...anything, but just use the correct medium.

[ImbracableCrunk]

Your type rating instructors will have all of the answers. Unless, of course, they're crap at their job, which I doubt.

If they aren't instructing you properly then complain about it.

Of my three airlines, I'd say your logic would work a one. Maybe.

[homerj]

Chesty , why waste yours and everyone elses time posting such rubbish.
The man is having an issue in the sim and and is looking for tips from fellow 737 operators, as do hundreds of people every day here.
If youre not a pilot , mabye it would be best if you keep your un-informed opinions to yourself, and if you are , God help us.

Low bypass , not sure if you are on a 300 with a pfd / nd but if you are try one using the flight path vector . ( if they let you )just keep it on the horizon and you wont move a foot! Its a bit of a cheat but makes them a lot easier.
As imbracable said , arm rests down are a must.

Let us know how you get on

[Chesty Morgan]

Homer, the OP is after specific advice, I don't have a problem with that in the slightest.

There are however, much better places to get that advice (I suggested his TRI who would have the best advice) than here, as good as PPrune is.

This is an anonymous forum where people can come and offer all types of advice and opinions. But who the hell are these people? I could have come here and offered advice on how to fly a 737, I could and would have been very convincing, but I have never flown one in my life. All the people on this thread who have offered opinion are an unknown. Do you really think this is the best place to receive flying instruction?

No, the best way to get tips and advice on flying the 737 is from people who fly the 737. For example, TRE/I, line trainers and line pilots.

Who knows, are you all Flight Sim experts and arm chair pilots? Maybe. I don't know and neither do you or the OP.

My opinion, is a) informed and b) about the advantages of gaining "tips" from an anonymous internet chat room. They have nothing to do with me being a pilot or not and, therefore, you can leave God and my profession out of it.

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

[cirr737]

@Chesty:

Well, when I read the initial post, my first thought was: That instructor is definitely not worth his money - I mean, teaching someone to do proper steep-turns in a 737 is one of the easiest things I can imagine - even my girlfriend could do it after some minutes of proper instruction...

So maybe this forum is the best advice he can get...

[Low-bypass]

Thanks a lot Homerj and Cirr737 for your valuable inputs,I'll use all your advices.Some people are trying to drift away from the topic I came here to ask for advices my instructor is a very good one tough but it doesn't harm in asking other pilots what work best for them at the end of the day it boils down to the same.Pprune is a community where aviators share their views,knowledges etc...

[Chesty Morgan]

cirr737, if that is the case then it is a very sad indictment of the trainers.

Low-bypass, by all means ask other pilots. You're right, it does no harm whatsoever but that isn't my point. Pprune is also riddled with people who have never been near an aeroplane let alone know how to fly one but are more than happy to jump in with their "advice", how do you know who is who and who is responding to you?

You must ensure that it is other pilots who are giving you advice but unfortunately, here, you can't guarantee that.

Your best bet is to ask your instructor, that is exactly what he's there for.

[Romeo E.T.]

cirr737


Well - pitch&power is everything!
250kts - 3° Pitch 63% N1 is the initial setup

Then start your roll, when passing 30° bank, increase power by 5% to 68% and use the pitch-up moment of power increase to reach 4.5° pitch attitude.

Check that you have 0 vertical speed at that configuration (dont know the targets of your simulator, so you might need to change those values a little bit). When you found the pitch for 0 vertical speed:

NAIL IT THERE! That is the most important part. Pitch stays, correct airspeed with SMALL power changes so you have no influence on pitch.

On rollout passing 30° bank reduce power to 63%, nose will drop back to 3° pitch and you are fine.

To sum up:
1. Stabilize at 250
2. Roll in, passing 30° increase power by 5%, pitch according to 0 V/S
3. KEEP YOUR PITCH, CONTROL SPEED WITH POWER, DON'T TRIM
4. On roll-out passing 30° reduce power back to initial value for straight and level flight at 250, nose will drop by itself with power reduction



Best wishes for your training

nice summary

when I taught basic IF scanning in light aircraft many years ago I told my students to use the "turning point/reversal" of the VSI to really nail the altimeter...i.e. as the VSI starts a trend upwards or downwards, immediately make a "CHANGE-CHECK-HOLD" pitch adjustment on the AH of a degree or two to stop its upwards or downwards trend, to the point where it stops its motion and just starts to reverse its tendancy...HOLD...RE-ADJUST

DON'T CHASE THE "0" Ft/Min point, but stop the trend immediately so that it just starts a reverse motion of its deviation.

to get back to the topic and help required, and to stop all the "bickering"

with over 7000hrs on B737's I personally still "patter" myself quietly when in the sim doing steep turns....and it works for me...the altimeter needle remains "super-glued".

[PantLoad]

The secret to altitude control is pitch. The secret to pitch control is bank.
The secret to bank control is: NAIL IT!!!!!!!


Fly safe,


PantLoad

[Centaurus]

Your best bet is to ask your instructor, that is exactly what he's there for.

Not always so. There are some real pricks of instructors around whose method of "instruction" is sarcasm and asking them for advice is often a recipe for a quick retort. All the advice I have seen so far on this thread seems very sound. Never take one opinion as gospel.

[misd-agin]

All valid comments.

I´d add - don´t just make a random pitch change but select a target for correction of X degrees, X+/- degrees, etc, stop your sink/climb, re-establish a new target pitch attitude to trend towards zero altitude lost, freeze at zero altitude lost, then reset baseline target pitch attitude.

Nothing like watching the nose go up, the nose go down, again and again, with an obvious lack of established target attitudes. :ugh: Same goes for bank angles. If your bank angle is cheaper your baseline pitch attitude is constantly changing. Set, pause, evaluate, adjust. Again and again and again.

Once you get it very steady you can see the altitmeter move before the VVI.

It almost becomes a muscle memory, pull just the right amount, pull harder to climb, less to descend.

Good luck.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

SCAN:ok: SCAN:ok: SCAN:ok:.

Get your scan rate up,

Scan the attitude indicator, then VSI, then Attitude indicator then ASI then Attitude indicator then VSI then Attitude Indicator then ASI and on and on and on till you complete your turn.

If it's still posing a problem get your TRI to demonstrate, it's what we're paid to do.

[john_tullamarine]

The other thing which makes life easier going onto a new aircraft, especially if it's the first jet sim - know absolutely parrot fashion the flight with unreliable airspeed tables before you even set sight on the box.

That way you know the thrust to set, and the pitch to target. Once you have the bird reasonably in the slot, then you can tweak it to make a good job of the task. Personal view only but I find it much easier to get rid of (or scan through) the FD and just fly the ball.

Conversely, if you have no idea of what you should be aiming for .. then you're dead in the water.

[Centaurus]

If it's still posing a problem get your TRI to demonstrate, it's what we're paid to do.

What these gentlemen are paid to do and what some can actually do, is sometimes not the same...

[bArt2]

and I didn't perform well on the manoeuver in today's lesson.

This generally means that your crosscheck is slow, or incorrect. The reason they let you do a steepturn is in fact to either train you to improve the crosscheck and attitude flying in an instruction flight or to see how your crosscheck an attitude flying skills are on a checkflight.

Knowing attitude and thrust references helps, but you should be able to do this maneuver within limits even without knowing them.

When you are going to do a steep turn, first make sure you are nicely stable in straight and level flight AND well trimmed.

During roll in, look at the attitude indicator while you are rolling. Roll in with a constant roll rate and keep the attitude (body angle) constant untill you reach roughly 30° of bank and the pull back on the yoke a bit to put the nose up 1 or 2 degrees higher (2 is maybee a bit much) and at the same time increase the power a bit. Once you are at 45° bank, keep have a look at the vertical speed / altitude and if it is going somewere look back at the attitude indicator and correct the pitch by a defined amount*. Then contine your instrument scan as described in your basic instrument flying course you should have lying around somewhere from basic training.

* Attitude flying means that you set the attitude you estimate needed for a certain performance (rate of climb/descent/speed, SLF, bank angle, ...), then wait for the result and if the result is not as expected change the attitude by a defined amount.

It is also nice to know what result a certain pitch (body angle) change will have on the ROC/ROD (Rate of Climb/Descent).

Very easy, look at you mach number. For eample Mach 0.5 (should be something like that if you do this exercise around 15000 feet at 250 KIAS).µ

M0.50 means you are doing roughly 5 Nm/min

A 1 degree attitude change (pitch/body angle or whatever they call it were you fly) will result in a 100 feet/Nm change. Multiply 5 Nm/min x 100 feet/Nm = 500 feet/min change.

So you see that if you are climbing 250 feet/min during your exercise, you have to put the dot on the attitude indicator 0,5° lower.

That is the trick, you have to put the dot where you want and keep it there while you are continuing your instrument scan, waiting for the result.

That is called attitude flying, if you don't do this then it is called needle chasing. The latter I assume is what you were doing.

The same technique applies for flying an ILS and any other phase of instrument flying.

Chiao