Nav Hours

[9v-SKA]

Hi everyone, it is my understanding that for nav trips to be counted towards the issue of a PPL or CPL, they have to be a "Triangular" flight of at least 150nm with 2 interim stops and all done in a day.

My question is that lets say I am hour building towards a CPL and I bring my family for a holiday. And we fly a direct flight to our destination more than 150nm away, make one refueling stop, rest for a day and make a return flight.

Is the above flight valid to count towards nav time for a CPL?


Edit: Distance changed.

[IO540]

The OP is in Singapore. It is not clear which PPL he is talking about.

Re the FAA PPL, is there a reference for the XC to be done all in one day? What if the clock strikes midnight after the 2nd landing? :)

[9v-SKA]

SoCal APP Well, I understand all in one day. What I was thinking was what if I make a trip that is more than 150mn with 2 interim stops but I do not end up where I originated?

Well, bringing friends and family up is considered solo flights provided that there is not another pilot onboard.

IO540 I am a holder of both the CAAS and CASA PPLs both are unrestricted. My question was a general one.

I think I can rephrase my question by asking: "What is the definition of a nav flight that can be counted towards the issue of a PPL or CPL?" During my training, iirc, not all of my solo nav flights had 2 intermediate stops.

A restricted PPL (A) will be issued restricting the privileges to carry out cross-country flights if the holder has not flown at least 5 hours solo on cross-country flights. This cross country flying must include a flight of not less than 150 nm during which the applicant has made two intermediate stops, one of which must have been at least 50 nm from the aerodrome of departure within a single day.

Must ALL nav flights meet the above requirements or would only one nav flight that meet the above requirement do?

[englishal]

My FAA CPL QXC was over 2 days and about 5-600nm. The DPE had no issue with it.

No it does not. Solo means exactly what it says - nobody else is permitted on the aircraft.
The FAA does not mention "solo". It mentions "performing the actions of PIC" or something like that. The reason it says this is because if one were doing the QXC in a twin, for the ME CPL, they know damn well no one in their right mind would rent a twin to a solo student or low houred ME pilot and so they make allowances for a safety pilot.

In FAA land it is perfectly possible to have a CPL ME and Private SE...I had this for a few days as I did my FAA ME CPL before the SE. Actually I already had the private twin rating but it is not necessary to hold this before doing the ME CPL. Doing the ME first had numerous advantages, not least that it meant I could do the SE CPL in a C172 rather than a complex aeroplane.

[BackPacker]

FWIW, here's what LASORS (the "access guide" to the ANO, which is the UK interpretation of JAR-FCL) has to say about it. (Section D1.2(D) )


An applicant for a JAR-FCL CPL(A) must have completed
a minimum of 200 hours of flight time, including the
particular requirements specified in a, b and c below.
These must be flown in aeroplanes irrespective of any
credits applicable under D1.2(D) Notes below:

[...]

a. ii. 20 hours of VFR cross-country flight time as
Pilot-in-Command, including a cross-country
Flight* totalling at least 540 km (300 nm) in
the course of which full-stop landings at two
aerodromes different from the aerodromes of
departure shall be made.

[...]

* The cross-country flight should be regarded as a single
planned exercise including landings at two intermediate
aerodromes and completed during the course of a single
day. Flights completed over the course of more than one
day will not normally be acceptable towards licence issue.
Should an applicant claim that there were mitigating
circumstances that prevented the flight from being
completed as originally planned, the applicant must send
in a written submission to PLD explaining what happened
together with any relevant supporting documentation/
information for consideration.

Obviously for PPL the flight has to be solo since you're not a license holder yet so there's no other way to be Pilot-In-Command. But for CPL nowhere does it specify that it has to be solo. So if you have a PPL you're legally allowed to bring passengers on the x-country.

What LASORS does not make completely clear though is whether a long-distance flight with one refueling stop (A-B-C, where the distance A-C is more than 150 or 300 miles as appropriate) is accepted instead of the standard A-B-C-A flight. Also, the CAA states that the intention is to make the flight a single planned exercise, performed over the course of a single day. But they do allow for e.g. weather contingencies.

[Whopity]

for nav trips to be counted towards the issue of a PPL or CPL, they have to be a "Triangular" flight of at least 150nm with 2 interim stops and all done in a day. Singapore licensing is largely based on the old UK national system. The flight that you describe is an ICAO requirement for the issue of a PPL (often called the qualifying X-Ctry) 2.3.1.3.2 The applicant shall have completed in aeroplanes
not less than 10 hours of solo flight time under the supervision
of an authorized flight instructor, including 5 hours of solo
cross-country flight time with at least one cross-country flight
totalling not less than 270 km (150 NM) in the course of which
full-stop landings at two different aerodromes shall be made.As you already have a PPL this requirement has been met and is no longer of any relevance to you.

Navigation flight time is time that can be identified as being on an organised or planned route, from A to B or via a series of way points A to A, via B and C etc rather than just flying around in circles and landing back at A. Think of the person in the Licensing Department trying to verify that you have enough hours; if you fly A to B it is obvious. If you fly a A to A write down Nav and list the turning points.

For a CPL you require: 20 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot-in command including a cross-country flight totaling not less than 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which full-stop landings at two different aerodromes shall be made; it does not have to be on a triangular route neither does it have to be solo, unless you are an Integrated course student. You do not have to return to the point of departure but, because the requirement is for a "flight" not a series of flights, it is considered by most States, that completing this requirement in the course of one day (24 hours) meets the spirit off the requirement.

[IO540]

Socal - John Lynch's FAA FAQ (I have a copy) would disagree with you, as would all DPEs to whom I have addressed the question, in years past :) This is within the DPE's discretion.

Backpacker - interesting quote from Lasors. A statement like "a single day" has to have flexibility in it otherwise it would not make sense in any country where night flight without having to go formally IFR is permitted.

FWIW, I have always understood the "solo" meaning as nobody else in the aircraft, and this is what I was told under the FAA system. And under the UK system you are definitely not allowed to carry anybody either. For some people who have travelled extensively already, this will mean having to burn a few hundred litres of avgas specially to get this logbook entry.

Whopity - interesting that you interpret a "day" as a 24hr period. I can't disagree though... also the FAA CPL X/C requires three landings, not two.

[BackPacker]

And under the UK system you are definitely not allowed to carry anybody either.

We're talking about the CPL QXC, on a modular course here, right? So the assumption is that the PIC already has a PPL and is thus licensed (and current) to carry passengers? My understanding is that in that case you are allowed to carry passengers on the CPL QXC. If you have any supporting documentation to the contrary, I'd like to see it.

Obviously, on an integrated course you never gain a PPL as an intermediate step. So until you pass the CPL test, you're not legal to carry passengers and act as PIC at the same time. So you're either flying solo or with an instructor on board.

also the FAA CPL X/C requires three landings, not two.

This is getting interesting. I can't find JAR-FCL right now, but I think their phrase is "two landings at an aerodrome different from the aerodrome of departure" or something like that. That would mean that an A-B-C flight would qualify. The a. ii. phrase I quoted from LASORS used the same phraseology, but the (*) note from LASORS talks about "two intermediate
aerodromes", suggesting that an A-B-C flight is not acceptable, but an A-B-C-D or A-B-C-A flight is.

Whopity, is your quote from ICAO or from the Singaporese ANO? Because that quote also seems to support that an A-B-C flight is acceptable.

And of course if the FAA requires three landings, then an A-B-C flight would not be acceptable either. Unless you do a stop-and-go in addition to a full-stop at either B or C, maybe?

[IO540]

If you have any supporting documentation to the contrary, I'd like to see it.

I haven't. I agree with your drift, but I don't think you would get this past any UK school, and that's what matters in the end :)

[Whopity]

My quote was from ICAO Annex 1. And under the UK system you are definitely not allowed to carry anybody either.For a CPL its an experience requirement that is obtained prior to starting a CPL Course so it doesn't matter a damn what any school thinks about it. There is no requirement for it to be solo. You only need log book evidence for licence issue.
nteresting that you interpret a "day" as a 24hr period. Think of the X- ctry that starts late in the day, something goes wrong, aircraft or weather and the 3rd leg can't be made till the next day. If the aircraft is back within 24 hours the UK CAA accept its still in a day and the same trip.
note from LASORS talks about "two intermediate aerodromes", suggesting that an A-B-C flight is not acceptableIt is the most common option, but A-B C is quite acceptable.

[englishal]

was the only place where I responded with an FAA comparable reg where it clearly state the definition of solo flight contradicting the OP's comment.
I think the confusion comes from the fact that the FAA doesn't specify that the CPL flight has to be "solo" - merely pilot in command, or "performing the duties of PIC". For the PPL it does I believe but as the poster has a PPL this is irrelevant.

Actually the idea of a QXC flight is to ensure you are sufficiently competent to do a cross country flight and don't just do 250 hrs of circuits before the CPL test. If you are someone like IO540 who flew numerous trans-euro VFR flights on a PPL before doing the FAA CPL, any DPE would just look at his logbook and go "ok, that is fine". The FAA do stipulate some other requirements, which (I can't remember) but that one airport must be at least 150nm (??) from point of departure in a straight line.

[Jwscud]

FAA require one of the points to be 250NM in a straight line from one of the others. I'm currently planning a potential candidate for mine at the moment. The advice in the aero-experience document on their website is poorly worded but I read it as requiring an A-B-C flight with A-B, B-C, or (most likely) A-C being greater than 250NM. I'm thinking KCHD to KSAN with an intermediate stop.

Is the 300NM distance measured as the sum of A-B and B-C straight line distance or the route as flown?

[Whopity]

From an ICAO perspective a total distance of 300nm is required. The advantage of measuring straight line distance between a number of airfields where you land is that you can prove the requirement has been met. If you do a longer route with turning points, nobody can prove you ever went there.

[dublinpilot]

Why is everyone talking about FAA, CAA & ICAO requirements, when the original poster is asking about Singapore and Australian requirements?

Does giving FAA, CAA & ICAO requirements not simply cloud the issue for the op?

[Jwscud]

Thanks - I was reading the Aero Experience summary doc from the FAA website (which is a bit vague) rather than the FAR itself.

[9v-SKA]

Why is everyone talking about FAA, CAA & ICAO requirements, when the original poster is asking about Singapore and Australian requirements?

Does giving FAA, CAA & ICAO requirements not simply cloud the issue for the op?

Its ok. Good to know requirements of different authorities as well.