Elstree - Unlicensed?

[Heliplane]

Just read this notam:

Q) EGTT/QFALT/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5139N00020W005
B) FROM: 10/07/16 17:04C) TO: 10/10/15 10:00 EST
E) AD MUST NOT BE USED BY ACFT REQUIRING THE USE OF A LICENSED AD.
IN EXERCISE OF IT'S POWERS UNDER ARTICLE 228(2) OF THE ORDER AND IN
ACCORDANCE WITH REGULATION 6(4) OF THE CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY
(CAA) REGULATIONS 1991, THE CAA PROPOSES TO TEMPORARILY SUSPEND THE
AD LICENCE P486 GRANTED TO MONTCLARE SHIPPING COMPANY LIMITED.
THE SUSPENSION IS WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT ON 16 JUL 2010.Q)

Any idea what might be behind this?

[IO540]

From postings elsewhere it looks like a CAA-enforced runway repair.

About time. The place was in a disgusting condition, and a perfect example of everybody (http://www.corsinet.com/braincandy/hlife.html) hoping somebody else would do it. A lot of airfields run a similar system (Spanhoe is another one I recall). Even the toilets needed a pair of wellies to walk into, but then you wouldn't want to climb into your plane afterwards with them. For all the money being made by the resident businesses (Cabair etc) I could not believe nobody even bought a £10 broom from B&Q and swept the stones off the runway.

For a "London" airfield it was a disgrace.

During taxi, one had to build up speed on the clean bits and close the throttle over the piles of stones, to avoid prop dings. I still got some though.

[BEagle]

Perhaps this might cause other owners of scruffy bits of decaying tarmac inherited from a war some 65 years ago, for which they charge an arm and a leg for the privilege of landing on, to spend some money on their rotting infrastructure.

Shabby, leaking portakabins, lavatories which should be marked with bio-hazard signs, coffee which would have shamed British Rail in the 1960s....these are the UK's so-called 'GA aerodromes....:*

[tmmorris]

BEags,

Could have sworn you were describing Lyneham there...

:-)

Tim

[NorthSouth]

Shabby, leaking portakabins, lavatories which should be marked with bio-hazard signs, coffee which would have shamed British Rail in the 1960s....these are the UK's so-called 'GA aerodromes....And there was me believing the editor of one of the leading pilot mags who this month declared that we are currently in the "golden age of GA"!
NS

[Dr Jekyll]

Shabby, leaking portakabins, lavatories which should be marked with bio-hazard signs, coffee which would have shamed British Rail in the 1960s....these are the UK's so-called 'GA aerodromes

I've always been fascinated by the contrast between the facilities at GA fields, and those at the Golf clubs and Gyms patronised by the same demographic.

Part of it's just the difficulty of making GA pay of course. But there also seems to be a perception among many instructors that if you treat people as 'customers' they will expect to get a licence just by paying for it and won't take their training seriously. Whereas the customers are probably looking at the grotty facilities and saying 'this place doesn't seem to take my training as seriously as i do so I'd better go elsewhere'.

Some clubs reminds me of the 'if you behave yourself we will generously allow you near our wonderful aircraft and you will be grateful' approach. Which I found fair enough as a 14 year old ATC cadet getting a free air experience flight but isn't really on for a business competing against other challenges.

[IO540]

I've always been fascinated by the contrast between the facilities at GA fields, and those at the Golf clubs and Gyms patronised by the same demographic.

Same age demographic but a very different attitude to parting with cash :) Loads of people turn up at an airfield in a spotless £60k Merc, and fly a clapped out C150 which is maintained (on their orders) to the absolute minimum standard possible.

I do things the other way round ;)

I have flown to Elstree only to a limited extent but it was apparent that any organisation of airfield maintenance had broken down years before, so nobody was doing anything and they just let the place rot around them.

There is a more general angle to this which IMHO is that people with money spend it quite strategically (unless they have essentially unlimited money, which is sometimes evident at the King Air / jet kind of level) and most men (being mostly men, in this game) spend money strongly preferentially where there is a social scene, which is true for golf etc but not for GA which is full of old moaners and anoraks. Especially single men who will target their leisure activity expenditure where there is interesting "potential".

The key to getting money into GA is to make it a more social activity, but this goes against the business model of schools/clubs who don't generally want people hanging around once they have got the bit of paper. A school like Cabair will be an extreme example of this.

[thecontroller]

The reason people still fly at Elstree even though it's a dump, the ATC are awful and the main resident flying school is overpriced and provides cr*p customer service at sky-high prices is.... the airfield's location. Very close to London. Simple as that.

[robin]

I go in fairly often and don't really find it a problem, though I do feel it could be spruced up a bit.

As I need to go in again soon I'll be watching to see when it reopens for use

[2 sheds]

the ATC are awful

It's not an ATC service, it's FIS. What exactly constitutes "awful", by the way?

2 s

[NorthSouth]

It's not an ATC service, it's FIS. What exactly constitutes "awful", by the way?They keep telling you what to do on the ground then leave you to fend for yourself in the air. Dreadfully inconsistent ;)
NS

[AdamFrisch]

I've only been in to Elstree twice and both times the ATC/FIS has been very helpful and friendly. However, I was shocked at the state of the runway as I came closer on the extended final, so hopefully this will get sorted out.

[rgsaero]

NorthSouth said
"They keep telling you what to do on the ground then leave you to fend for yourself in the air. Dreadfully inconsistent"

That's what AFISOs do! And it was upgraded to FIS at Elstree because some years ago when it was A/G people kept bumping into each other on the ground and asking where they should taxi to etc. FISOs also advise inbound traffic where to report etc. They do NOT "control" aircraft when airborne - that's the pilot's job.

Elstree's runway is indeed still closed as the repairs have not yet been made to a number of areas of it. In addition the CAA, which inspected the a/f last week has suspended the licence.

It is worth noting here that the man who has operated Elstree for the last 50 years or so has, effectively, retired and a new management is grappling with a backlog of problems. Many of these stem, I believe, from the levels of debt which the operator has been carrying because so many people who operate from the a/f don't pay on time (and some not at all)! I expect that will change very soon!

The operator has been a very good friend to GA over the years, and I expect that will be the case again, after this brief "outage" is resolved.

[Spitoon]

rgs, careful you don't overlook the ;) from NS!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

people who operate from the a/f don't pay on time
Well, that's not how to run a business, is it.

The first thing you do when you get into the office every morning is chase overdue payments.

Once you've got all that cash in, or started the court paperwork, the second thing you do is issue invoices for work already done or goods already supplied but which haven't been invoiced yet (which really can only be because the work was completed late last night, can't it, otherwise you'd have invoiced yesterday, wouldn't you).

Only after you've worked to get in money you're already owed does it make any sense to start doing new work to earn new money.

[niknak]

The reason people still fly at Elstree even though it's a dump, is.... the airfield's location. Very close to London. Simple as that.

The first thing you do when you get into the office every morning is chase overdue payments.

Once you've got all that cash in, or started the court paperwork, the second thing you do is issue invoices for work already done or goods already supplied but which haven't been invoiced yet (which really can only be because the work was completed late last night, can't it, otherwise you'd have invoiced yesterday, wouldn't you).

Only after you've worked to get in money you're already owed does it make any sense to start doing new work to earn new money.

Which means that the owners of Elstree should do all e above and the remedial work, double the landing and parking fees and run the business properly.
Those who need to use the place can afford to do so, those that don't want to can go elsewhere.

[robin]

The landing fee has doubled already

[rgsaero]

Robin -
Landing fees - doubled since the runway was closed? Or since when? But then, I'm a "resident" so for me they're rolled into the "residential fee", so I wouldn't know, though I'm surprised if that's happened since the management change which only happened days ago. But then, if they've been very low for the last ?? years perhaps that's contributed to the shortage of cash for reparations etc. Chickens, eggs etc.....

[robin]

Flew in in the early part of the year with landing at £10. In May was £20

[madlandrover]

Low? I'm not sure I'd call £50 for a DA42 low! Although the 50% "discount" for cash makes it a more reasonable £25. Bit trickier for those not habitually carrying wads of cash though, I'm not especially keen on carrying extra cash when a debit card does exactly the same thing! Maybe something for the new management to consider?

[jimmellish]

I understand that the runway is going to be completely resurfaced later in the year so the management have to decide if they are going patch now and resurface later or try and resurface now.

And why does everybody dislike Cabair so much ?

The key to getting money into GA is to make it a more social activity, but this goes against the business model of schools/clubs who don't generally want people hanging around once they have got the bit of paper. A school like Cabair will be an extreme example of this.

the main resident flying school is overpriced and provides cr*p customer service at sky-high prices

I have been a member of Cabair since 1997. I have never felt unwelcome at either Elstree or Denham - the airfields I use. I enjoy flying on the Elstree regular Sunday trips but can't make the regular Wednesday trips because of work. Cabair is more epensive than other schools but I get a choice of PA28s to fly including Archers and Arrows and have never been unable to fly because an aircraft has become unserviceable. Once an aircraft was flown in from Biggin so that my pre-booked rental could take place - thats good customer service.

[stickandrudderman]

Although the 50% "discount" for cash makes it a more reasonable £25.

As against a £30 penalty for paying cash at another west London Airfield!!

[A and C]

On the one hand we have people giving out at the poor state of GA airfields and on the other hand they won't pay £ 30 to use GA airfields.

I get the feeling that some people o this forum have no idea whatsoever of the costs involved in running an airfield. I guess that I should expect this from the people who roll up in a new BMW and then spend hours in the cafe banging on about the labour rates charged by the maintenance companys.

[Jan Olieslagers]

I cannot imagine any aerodrome can be operated to a financial profit by the sole payment of whatever landing fees from recreational pilots. Either a lot of volunteer work is required, as is usual at club aerodromes, or the a/d must have sufficient income from professional operators.
How many landings "from outside" per weekend at the typical recreational airfield? At perhaps 35 flyable weekends per year? How much yearly revenue at what landing fee?
Whether 10£ or 50£, the contribution to the total yearly running cost will be marginal.

[ShyTorque]

I never cease to be amazed how much folk winge over landing fees near London.

If it puts it in perspective, look at the pricing structure at this website, at a landing place not far south of Elstree....

London Heliport (http://www.londonheliport.co.uk/)

[david michael]

It seems that is why Microlight Pilots have all the fun. Their instructors can earn a living and therfore give more time to their students as they are not just hour building. The conversion rate from a trial lesson to a PPL M would be much higher. The social side is massive and although they maybe in a field their facilities are often far better.:D

I am not a Microlight Pilot.

I did come across a discount code for www.pooleys.com (http://www.pooleys.com) just type in pooleys in the promo code box and you get a discount! I wonder if they know this is still active?:oh:

[Phil Histine]

There's a load of old hard core sitting virtually idle inside Charlie at Elstree which could be used for filling in the potholes

[IO540]

The social side is massive

The social side is even more massive in gliding; most participants seem to divorce and remarry at their gliding club :)

There is a real need for an airfield without a massive social side though; one where you can simply fly from, without hassle, and which is usable for flying to London.

Currently, London doesn't have a single GA-accessible airfield which is usable in any kind of "weather", which to me is just amazing.... for all the masses of money kicking around there.

[IO540]

Those are not exactly close to London, however.

I know somebody who flew out of Biggin and he lived in East London and it still took him ages to get there

[coolbeans]

Those are not exactly close to London, however.

I know somebody who flew out of Biggin and he lived in East London and it still took him ages to get there

It takes ages to get anywhere in london.

London Victoria to biggin hill, 40 minutes by public transport, 1 train, 1 bus.

Realistically how much closer to the centre is feasible?

[AdamFrisch]

When I flew into Elstree I brought my little foldable Brompton bike. It took about 25-30min to get to the tube and then the tube was a good 35-45mins off peak into Soho, if I recall correctly. So it takes time. For me living in Hastings and flying up to London is never faster than taking the car, door to door. But it's not about that, of course. It would be nice if there was a GA airport that had slightly better communications so it actually could be an alternative to the car on nice days. The stress is a lot less, I find. Sitting in traffic makes me doolally.

[AndoniP]

the runway was patched up and the airfield is now open again.

it will be completely resurfaced later on in the year. i understand that the new management have now taken over and are rectifying the problems.

as far as comments above go, i don't know which toilets you stepped into but at cabair they're spotless.

completely agree with jimmellish, never had a problem at cabair and are always really helpful and accommodating.

i'd rather pay a bit extra to go there and go somewhere reliable than pay a bit less and go to some tinpot school which will fold when the market goes tits up again.

mick can be temperamental sometimes but he's harmless, just ignore it. he's there to provide you with a service so don't feel intimidated by his attitude.

[IO540]

London could do with an ILS airfield which is near a tube station.

Runways without an IAP are about as useful as a chocolate teapot for going anywhere for a serious purpose - and not many people go to London otherwise because everything there is such a hassle. Due to the VFR cancellation rate, it becomes simpler to never fly at all.

The filthy toilets were in the main building, next to some cafe. The Cabair loo was OK :ok:

[julian_storey]

Southend will be 'ok' for London once they've finished building the new railway station :ok:

[Will Hung]

There's a load of old hard core sitting virtually idle inside Charlie at Elstree which could be used for filling in the potholes

Not 'The Brick' is it ?