IMC Rating

[thing]

I'm aware that the IMC rating is only valid in the UK but at risk of sounding dumb (OK no risk at all...) what defines the UK? Does it include the Channel Islands? If it includes NI then surely it must cover Eire as well?

What happens if you go to France and have crap weather in France for the return flight? Are you stuck there?

If you set off for France in IMC and get half way across the Channel because the forecast was good for Dover/Calais but it stays pants do you have to turn back because you are now 'illegal'?

While I'm thinking about it, does the night rating have the same rules as VFR ie in sight of the ground at all times except that somebody has turned the dark on?

All derision manfully accepted for some decent answers.

[IO540]

I'm aware that the IMC rating is only valid in the UK but at risk of sounding dumb (OK no risk at all...) what defines the UK? Does it include the Channel Islands? If it includes NI then surely it must cover Eire as well? It covers N Ireland, and I believe dependent territories (Falklands?). The CI have their own ANO and an equivalent rating; I don't know if the IMCR applies there but it is moot since most of the relevant airspace is Class A.

Note that only the IFR privileges of the IMCR are limited to the UK. The fact that with an IMCR you can fly VFR without sight of the surface, and VFR down to 1500m (instead of 3000m) is not restricted geographically, and enables legal VMC on top VFR flight worldwide. I have this in writing from the CAA.

What happens if you go to France and have crap weather in France for the return flight? Are you stuck there?Yes. You have to be legally VFR in French airspace, but from the airspace boundary (mid channel) you can be IFR.

If you set off for France in IMC and get half way across the Channel because the forecast was good for Dover/Calais but it stays pants do you have to turn back because you are now 'illegal'?Yes.

With a full IR you would request (and get) an IFR clearance and proceed IFR and land with an ILS, etc.

While I'm thinking about it, does the night rating have the same rules as VFR ie in sight of the ground at all times except that somebody has turned the dark on?Yes. A bit silly, isn't it? The NR (NQ) is an anomaly because if the night is 100% dark then you are doing 100% instrument flight, in terms of both aircraft control and navigation which now must be radio nav (GPS, etc). Yet you can do this on a plain PPL, with a few hours pottering about over some well lit terrain (Kennedy Jr. found out the hard way).

The IMCR is hugely valuable in the UK, for low level flight below Class A and landing with instrument approaches. In a very different way it facilitates long distance (VMC on top) VFR touring across Europe, but in the latter case you need to be sure of the weather at the far end, otherwise you will look a right pra*t turning up overhead Biarritz at FL060 when the wx down there is OVC006 ;)

I did a lot of VFR touring before I got the IR, and VMC on top really made it possible. Flying VFR below the cloud (the traditional UK VFR, due to low Class A bases) doesn't really work for long distances, due to a convergence between rising terrain and the cloudbase ;)

The other thing is that while flying "VFR" in IMC is illegal, it is undetectable when enroute, and this is an added bonus which many pilots use to their advantage ;) But you need to be well sorted on the equipment/capability front.

[thing]

Ah, thanks very much for your detailed reply. So you can still fly VFR on top with an IMC rating. How do you know if it's VFR on top though? (Sorry, glider pilot speaking here...)

I've also read that the powers that be in Europe are trying to scrap the IMC rating, reasoning being that if it enhances flight safety then you should be taught it as part of the PPL.

[tmmorris]

If you think about it, to get to the position where you are VFR on top you either

a. climb through cloud and find it's sunny up there (by luck, reading the forecast or asking for pireps)

b. climb through a hole in cloud but know that the cloud becomes more solid as you go along your route (but will be VFR at destination).

a. of course you could only do in the UK (assuming you only have an IMCR); b. is what you would do if you were abroad at the time.

Tim

[IO540]

So you can still fly VFR on top with an IMC rating. How do you know if it's VFR on top though?You mean how do you forecast cloud tops?

With difficulty. I have some info on the subject 1 (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/ir-sat/index.html) 2 (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/tops/index.html) but they are really applicable only to higher altitude capabilities which is meaningful only with an IR. The IR images e.g (http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/satpics/latest_IR.html) can indicate cloud tops.

In the IMCR context, you can fly around the N of England fairly well, ~ FL060, above cloud. In fact the other week I flew from N Wales all the way to the S coast, FL055, above solid cloud. It can be useful.

More practically, if you look up at the sky, the base is say 1500ft and you can see blue sky in holes, the tops will probably be 3000-5000ft max. And if they are higher, you can just stay in the stuff, or descend back down below, etc.

I like flying above cloud because it is usually very smooth, whereas flying below can be very rough (esp. in the summer).

Your radio nav has to be spot on.

VMC on top works much better abroad because over there they don't have the low level Class A, and ATC more readily allows CAS transits there (Italy excepted; lots of Class A).

[thing]

Excellent. Thanks for the replies guys.

[Whopity]

The fact that with an IMCR you can fly VFR without sight of the surface, and VFR down to 1500m (instead of 3000m) is not restricted geographically, and enables legal VMC on top VFR flight worldwide. I have this in writing from the CAA. Unfortunately that's not what the ANO says, The IMC privileges (Schedule 7) are restricted geographically:Instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes)
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), within the United Kingdom an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes) rating entitles—
(a) the holder of a United Kingdom Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes) or a United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes) to fly as pilot in command of an aeroplane without being subject to the restrictions contained respectively in paragraph (2)(c) or (f) of the privileges of the United Kingdom Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes) or paragraph (3)(g) or (i) of the privileges of the United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes); and
(b) the holder of a JAR–FCL Private Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) to fly as pilot in command of an aeroplane in Class D or E airspace in circumstances which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules.So if you are outside the UK para 2c (i) and (iii) still apply to the holder of a UK PPL.(2) The holder may not—(c) unless the licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane—
(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace if the flight visibility is less than three km;
(iii) out of sight of the surface;
If you hold a UK issued JAA PPL the same limitation is contained in para 3(a) rather than 2(c) JAA PPL (3) The holder may not—
(a) unless the licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane—
(i) on a flight outside controlled airspace when the flight visibility is less than three km;
(iii) out of sight of the surface; The IMC rating privileges make no mention of exempting JAA holders from para 3(a) in relation to a JAA licence; the only reference is the condition of holding an IMC rating within the licence privilege, to which there is no associated geographical limitation.

The CAA's letter is therefore only applicable to holders of a UK issued JAA PPL.

[bookworm]

So if you are outside the UK para 2c (i) and (iii) still apply to the holder of a UK PPL.

They do apply, but they exempt IMC rating holders without geographical limitation, as do the corresponding paragraphs in the JAR-FCL PPL. The ratings section is irrelevant.

It's a classic lesson in why you should avoid writing the same rule twice in different ways.

[IO540]

The CAA's letter is therefore only applicable to holders of a UK issued JAA PPL.The IMCR cannot be attached to any other kind of license anyway (post year 2000 or so).

[BEagle]

Not so:

E3.1 UK IMC RATING GENERAL INFORMATION

The IMC Rating is a national rating and can only be
endorsed onto a UK or JAR-FCL aeroplane licence.

So, any UK-issued pilot licence (except NPPL) may include an IMC Rating.

Additionally:

The privileges of the IMC Rating may be
exercised in UK territorial airspace. The IMC Rating may
not be used in the airspace of any other Country unless
permission to do so has been given by the appropriate
authority of that Country.

[Whopity]

The ratings section is irrelevant.

It's a classic lesson in why you should avoid writing the same rule twice in different ways.A Rating can extend or limit the privileges of a licence. Where else other than in the "privileges" of the rating can the limitations be placed? Why does the UK only limitation apply to para 3(f) and not to 2(c). If as you say the rating section is irrelevant it would not apply to either!

[bookworm]

Why does the UK only limitation apply to para 3(f) and not to 2(c).

I think you mean 2(f), the right to fly under IFR in class D or E. And the answer is because the UK does not have the right to extend the Annex 1 privileges of a licence over the territory of another state. But it does have the right to lift limitations (such as those in 2(c)) that it imposed to restrict those privileges in the first place.

I've never come across a case where the limitations of 2(c) of a PPL without IMC-rating were applied extra-territorially anyway. Art 247(2) means that they could be, but I can't imagine a foreign state prosecuting a PPL e.g. for flying SVFR in 5 km vis when it's own licence-holders can do so.

I can't help but think that debates like this are going to become an endangered species when EASA FCL comes in. :)

[Whopity]

I don't think the French would be in the least bit bothered if you were VMC on top or indeed if you flew in 1500 metres vis. This illustrates how badly worded the UK ANO is, and in particular where there is more than one type of licence or rating it is written differently for each.

EASA will still lead to differences in interpretation between different States but at least we will only have one set of rules allbeit poorly conceived ones in places.

[Brendan Navigator]

With respect to the question of what is UK Territorial Airspace.

It is the airspace that overlies the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the surrounding islands plus the territorial waters which extend to 3nm off shore

It does not include the Channel Islands and it does not include the Isle of Man.

However, The State of Jersey, the States of Guernsey and the Isle of Man have all provided for the IMC rating in their legislation within their own territorial airspace - again, the land mass plus their own territorial waters.

If you want to see how far UK territorial airspace extends from the coast you need to look up the extent ot the UK's territorial waters.

The validity of the IMC rating for flight in IMC does not extend to the airspace over the high seas.

So IMC rating holders are limkited by national territorial limits and not by what may be the FIR boundary.

For example since it was previouslt mentioned, Parts of Northern Ireland (UK territorial airspace) lie within ther Shannon FIR since the FIR boundary does not follow the land border. Therefore it is entirely legal for an IMC rating holder to fly in IMC within those parts of the Shannon FIR (Class G) that overlie Northern Ireland. But it is not legal for then to fly in IMC in the Scottish FIR where that is within the territorial airspace of Ireland (Eire).

On the same thred, it is not legal for an IMC rating holder to be flying in IMC half way between England and Guernsey since this is over the high seas and outside both the UK and States of Guernsey Territorial airspace.

So getting back to the "How far across the channel can I fly in IMC with an IMC rating?" the answer has to be 3nm from the UK coast i.e. the limit of the UK.

Simple?

[Fuji Abound]

Brendan - I think you are wrong. What is the basis for your assertion?

[Whopity]

UK Teritorial Airspace is the UK FIR over which the UK has responsibility to provide Air Traffic Services. There are some exceptions and bilateral agreements listed in the UK AIP.

The 3nm boundary applies to overflight of another country. I recall doing experimental flying in the SW Approaches where we had to avoid overflight of the Republic of Ireland by 3nm because we did not have any diplomatic clearance.

[bookworm]

It is the airspace that overlies the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the surrounding islands plus the territorial waters which extend to 3nm off shore

12 miles these days. But otherwise, I think you're correct.

[Brendan Navigator]

Bookworm,

Thank you, I sit corrected. It is indeed a maximum of 12nm these days.

Whopity,

You may have been operating over the high seas. In fact you would have been doing so if you were more than 12nm from the coast. Therefore, you could do as you please - and so could every other military operator i.e. the russians could quite legally have flown along side you taking pictures!!

Fuji Abound,

If you look at the ICAO Convention Article 1 and 2;

http://www.icao.int/icaonet/dcs/7300_cons.pdf

and then look at the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea

you will see exactly what Territorial airspace means.

FIR's are simply for the coordination of ATS and are formed by agreement. There is absolutely no way that the UK can claim that the airspace at 54N and 29W is UK Territorial Airspace. They do however, provide an ATS service there under an international agreement. (Shanwick FIR).

So the problem is that the limititation on the IMC rating to only flying in IMC within the UK prevents anyone from flying in IMC with the rating over the high seas!!

[Fuji Abound]

Brendan

I dont need to look thank you, since I never referred to the FIRs, just pointed out that I thought you were wrong in your original assertion. I already knew what territorial airspace meant. :)

Mind you, things are rarely as simple as they seem when it comes to anything aviation related. You might like to consider:

A flight from an OT to an off-shore oil rig is not an international flight if the rig is within the territorial waters of the OT concerned. Normally territorial waters would extend to 12 miles from the shoreline but can extend further under international treaty or by a claim of sovereignty. Normally, therefore, operations between an OT and an oil rig in international waters that do not pass through the airspace of another country will not be international.
If the rig were located in the undisputed territorial waters of another Contracting State then the flight would become an international one.

My bold.

[Whopity]

the russians could quite legally have flown along side you taking pictures!!They did quite frequently, we used to formate with the Bears.

What I was trying to say re the FIR is that normally the rules that apply within it are those of the controlling authority though they don't have any territorial claim to it. We regularly used to fly the FIR boundary and talk to nobody. I stand corrected on the Limit of Territorial Airspace which makes sense.
If you are over the high seas outside controlled airspace I don't think anyone is going to be concerned if you are using your UK IMC rating.

[IO540]

If you are over the high seas outside controlled airspace I don't think anyone is going to be concerned if you are using your UK IMC rating.

That is really interesting, for all sorts of reasons...

Presumably it means you can do aerial work 12nm offshore but still within UK FIR in an N-reg without needing DfT permission?