Northern UK LLC , EGGP/EGCC

[Vfrpilotpb]

Good Morning Ppruner's

My past dislike and mistrust of the LLC has been registered on these threads in the past, but following a visit to Man ATC set up for a couple of us by fellow Ppruner " Chiglet" we were informed by those people at Man App (119.40)they would like all GA pilots using the corridor to contact them rather than just fly up or down the LLC (with or without a squawk 7000)this is contrary to most written instruction about the LLC, which advise GA pilots not to talk to Man, yesterday along with some other pilots I flew along the LLC, contacted Man App well before the low level they spoke to us and gave us a clear picture of what was going on in the corridor, we were asked to squawk ident and then given info all along the corridor(it was very busy, Chinooks Jetranger and light A/c) Now I dont suppose that would be the norm when they(Man App) are very busy but this has given me the security of mind to use the corridor more often, so despite my past bad feelings about the corridor, I do now feel that with the help of the "Man App" it feels safer to use. What do you PPL people think?

[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: Vfrpilotpb ]

[Yogi-Bear]

Don't know what you distrust, PB. I've been using it for fifteen years, mostly weekends, without incident (except when Man vectored a 747 right over the top of us at c2500' :D ). Rarely see anything else. Fashions change with the years and also the days of the week. I sometimes think that when ATC get fed up with too few tadpoles of their own to play with, they turn to us for amusement. Sometimes its been, "don't talk to us and don't squawk; it clutters the screen." Now you are told differently. :confused: About ten year's ago they were thinking of a discrete frequency to offload us from Approach. It must be very wearying to get a light plane's life history just as you are sequencing a series of alooominum tubes for the ILS. :( The heavies are very patient and sometimes helpful. The vis. minima is high enough for see and be seen to be adequate, so unless there is a specific reason to contact them, I just listen out and keep right. :) Since the corridor was moved, I could use white lines painted on the countryside though? :rolleyes:
Also Peter B

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

So Manch gave you.."a clear picture of what was going on" in the LLR. I don't think so. They may have given you a clear picture of WHAT THEY KNEW ABOUT - but what about the rest? You never saw any others? You rarly do. I've been using the LLR for over 20 years most weekends and sometimes weekdays - non radio sometimes. It works well. IMHO getting a FIS from Manch can be misleading - they'll tell you about the ones they know about, and some pilots may then relax their lookout if there no immediate threats. Keep looking - there are plenty in there that don't/can't talk to Manch.

Talk to 119.4 if you like - but be aware that what they tell you about will only be part of what's there (primary radar cover is very poor in LLR).

SSD

[Avoiding Action]

Pedantic, I know, but since when has Manchester qualified as "Northern UK"?

There's a lot more of it up here before you get your feet wet in the icy briny! :D :D :D

Straps on helmet, climbs into trench and waits for incoming... ;)

[Cat.S]

As resident and employed in the LLR I see just how much traffic there and wouldn't dream of flying it without talking to someone. Apart from GA there is a lot of military rotary, many microlights and helis from both Greater Manchester and Merseyside (the border is next to Haydock Park). The only thing I've never seen is a balloon! ANY help from ATC is appreciated greatly.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Cat.S.

So you have total faith in a guy in a dark room many miles away who doesn't see anything like the full picture? Me, I prefer to keep a good look out and be responsible for my own survival and that of other LLR useres.

Keep that neck swivelling! Talk to someone if you want, but please don't belive (as your comment "I woudn't dream of flying it without talking to someone" implies) that guy in the dark room is some kind of guardian angel sitting on your wing and guiding you around all the traffic.

Stay responsible - stay safe ;~)

SSD

[Cat.S]

Shaggy.
You got me wrong. The point I'm making is that there is so much traffic there that any extra help is welcome. I can't believe there is a single pilot out there who has seen every aircraft nearby at all times, especially rotary which may be in a stationary hover. An extra pair of eyes on radar, Manchester workload permitting, is something I wouldn't turn down. It's not as if we have to pay for it! On a slightly different note, even had a low level AWACS today about 2PM, travelling north-south and then banking steeply and possibly going for the Burtonwood VRP. At least he'd be aware of other traffic!

[Vfrpilotpb]

Hey Shaggy,

Why be so hard on the comments , Do you think for one moment that having talked to someone in a dark room(which it is'nt) I was flying on their view, not at all, my eye's were still scaning every available degree in sight, the problem I have with the LLC is the amount of Fixed wingers that I have seen not looking out at all, in fact I have witnessed two FWs folding maps, or Newspapers whilst merrily going on their way, I have avoided the LLC for that reason, But after my visit to the Man ATC, I now know that all us PPL's have been under some mis information about the Man approach, they would like us all to talk to them, I consider that any help that can be had whilst flying, from any quarter is all help to allow me to fly with more safety, and to land when and where I choose, you state that these people in dark rooms dont have the full picture, well old boy time you got off your backside and paid em a visit, then I am sure you will see a bigger picture than you do now!
My Regards

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Vfrpilotpb

Thank you for your erudite contribution. I quote:

“well old boy time you got off your backside and paid em a visit, then I am sure you will see a bigger picture than you do now!”

It’s precisely because I’ve done just that, on at least 5 occasions, that I am aware of the primary radar coverage limitations in the LLR.

I posted on the PPRuNe ATC board a question about this not long ago. The unanimous response from ATCOs was “squawk don’t talk”. There are a few good reasons:

1) Often, the guys are very busy.

2) Calling all known traffic to each one who calls, then informing all the others of the new bloke, takes a lot of controller time.

3) Some pilots (not, of course you, Vfrpilotpb) might relax their lookout on receipt of what sounds like a comprehensive view of everything going on between Wigan and Crewe, and then bang into a non-radio guy.

I am constantly amazed how some recently-qualified PPLs hold the radio in awe, and treat it like an Oracle (‘If the man doesn’t mention it, it isn’t there).

By all means call if it’s not too busy on 119.4. But for heavens sake be aware that the radar man won’t have the full picture. Wise old ATCOs (like Tony Brown) will add to any FIS request “…..and keep a good lookout – there may be others not talking to me”. But not all of them do.

Keep it safe.

SSD

[Vfrpilotpb]

Good Morning Shaggy,

Did'nt mean to rattle your chain, sorry for that, as for recently qualified, not really! and finally the main reason for my distrust of the LLC is simply that most people seem to fly up an down it in no particular order, if the powers that be had put some simple directionly flow patterns into the design of it , well it may have been a little safer then, I suppose if anything really sad happens in that area then something may be done, but untill then it is down to treating it as a pretty unsafe piece of sky, albeit the main Western option of traversing North/South!
My Regards

[topunicyclist]

Hi, I use the low level route every now and again. My biggest concern is that, having to stay "not above 1250 feet", it is impossible to maintain the 1500 rule above a heavily built-up area. My second concern is that the area to the south of Warrington (i.e. between Warrington & Northwich) is fairly featureless terrain and there are few landmarks to confirm that you are maintaining the correct track. North of Warrington, it's a bit easier with the M6, though.

I would assume that LPL APP are, on average, less busy than MAN APP so it would seem to me that perhaps LPL APP would be the better freq to call. However, it's based on the MAN QNH, and this implies to me than MAN APP is the freq to call. Perhaps any possible altitude/track deviation from the route would be more likely to cause MAN APP than LPL APP a problem with their inbound/outbound traffic - but I really don't know!!

I rarely see much traffic down the route (and no I don't fly with my eyes closed!), although the last time I flew down there, flying south just to the north of Warrington, another acft was on a converging track entering the route from Barton, same altitude, speed, direction. I just kept him in my 11 o'clock and all was fine! He turned to head south when he got to the centre of the route.

I currently live in Warrington cty centre so see quite a few planes flyig over, but it doesn't strike me as being particularly busy (especially when compared to the M60 in rush hour!).

Safe flying.............

[Hooligan Bill]

Why is it that everybody gets their knickers in a twist regarding the LLC and the 1500ft rule? If people actually looked at the rules you will find out that the LLC is notified for the purposes of Rule 5(2)(a)(i), which in plain English means that when operating in this airspace you are exempt from the 1500ft rule.

[Hooligan Bill]

Cat.S,

I believe that the AWACS was inbound to EGGP. What you need to appreciate is that the LLC is aligned with left and right bases for rwy 27 at GP.Liverpool are not allowed to go further east than the centre of the corridor without co-ordination with EGCC approach. Therefore you will see traffic descending to 1800ft (EGGP QNH) over the top of the western side of the corridor. This is unavoidable as the rules state that a/c being vectored to the ILS should be given a period of level flight once established and must be established by a minimum of 5nm.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Hi Topunicyclist. IMHO it is more important to Manch than L'pool that you don't stray from the LLR. The eastern edge is about as close as it can be to 24L climb out and 06R glideslope. Please do not follow the M6 - that curves in towards the airport at Knutsford and gives ATCOs appolexy if guys follow it!

For those without local knowledge, the best line feature to follow is the West Coast Main Line railway; fly south from Warrrington untill you intercept it (it will swing in from the right (west), then you can follow it to Crewe.

SSD

[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: Shaggy Sheep Driver ]

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Hi Hooligan Bill

Interesting what you say about the AWACs. My sister lives in Hatton, right on the W side of LLR, just south of L'pool 27 centreline. I was walking near her house last years when a Sleazy 737 screamed overhead on what looked like a visual positioning for 27. He looked VERY low. I wonder if those guys know about the LLR?

SSD

[topunicyclist]

SSD, yes you're right, *south* of Warrington, the M6 cannot be used as the line feature to follow (it does indeed get very close to Manchester apt - particularly the southern end of the new runway!). However, *north* of Warrington, the M6 is a good feature until you get just north of Warrington.

Living in the centre of Warrington, I often observe EZY heading more or less south just before turning finals for 27 @ LPL and think what height they must be.........my aunt's mother lives in Hatton too, just opposite the Hatton Arms pub (but I am pretty sure they are different people)..............

[Hooligan Bill]

SSD,

One or two points. Care should certainly be taken when operating in the LLC as poor navigation can lead to problems for both Manc and Liverpool. In general though the LLC causes more problems for Liv than it does Manc. A small deviation into the Liverpool Control Zone and you will find yourself going right through the final approach track at the point where a/c are starting their descent out of 1800ft. The SID's at Manc are designed so that outbound a/c are normally well above the corridor when they cross or get close to it. The inbounds onto 06 will also normally be well above the corridor, due to descent restrictions caused by Liverpool Airspace.

As for the easyJet crews, they are all too aware of the corridor. Normally on a visual approach they will be 1800ft or above until they cross the western edge. Do not forget though, once they have crossed that edge and are inside the control zone, there is nothing stopping them coming down further. At Hatton you may well be seeing traffic that is positioning visually onto left base for rwy 27, that is inside the Liverpool Zone, albeit only just. However, this is another reason why good navigation is required in the LLC.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

HB

Yes of course. But Hatton is inside the LLR - just. And the Easy I saw (who was L base for 27, almost certainly positioning visually) was, if anything, E of Hatton a tad. He may well have been no lower than 1800 QNH - but my estimate AGL would be below 1000 feet. But I could be wrong.

I'm judging that in comparison to aircraft passing over Cheadle inbound to Manch on the ILS. They are at 2 to 3 miles, which at 3 degrees plus 50 feet puts them 650 to 950 feet.

This Easy looked about as high as them!


SSD

[Hooligan Bill]

SSD,

ATC are responsible for keeping a/c on visual approaches inside CAS. Normally such traffic inbound EGGP will not be released to descend below 1800ft until west of the LLC.

[squibbler]

SSD, aircraft on a visual approach to EGGP & over the LLR are resticted to "not below 1800' until advised". This is to discharge our responsibilities in MATS 1 3-15 which reads:

Visual Approach

When an aircraft is cleared for a visual approach the clearance must include, where necessary, a level restriction to ensure that:

a) the aircraft remains within radar cover, and

) the pilot does not descend below the base of controlled airspace.


In this case we are ensuring that traffic on right & left base for 27 are protected from the gibbering wrecks flying up and down the LLR! ;)

737 1000' over Hatton? Naaaaah, someones been slipping stuff into yer tea....... :p

[Vfrpilotpb]

Hooligan,
I dont think pilots particularly get their Kecs in a Twist about the 1500' rule in the LLc, but what was never thought of or indeed designed into the thing, was the glidability of Eggbeaters without power! the small heli type's at 1250' have appox 18/21 seconds and appox 550yds before contact with mother earth if all goes quite, if you are over the main part of Warrington you would struggle to Auto into a reasonable LZ, now I sure that one of you chaps will correct me if I am wrong , but I am led to belive that at 1250' in any light A/c you could glide about 1.5 miles? that would put you well outside the danger area of the town centre, so hence my other dislike of the LLC, it is, in my opinion one of the most dangerous areas of sky in the north of England open to PPL's, I have had lengthy conversations with the CAA route designators about this, but as they have agreed it is the best option open to GA at this moment in time, they cannot go nearer to LPL for the reasons covered in other replies to this post, nor can they allow the height to extend up, one thing you can do however is to call up Man App and ask for transit throught at a higher level, I am told that if they are not too busy they will give you that option but then you would be under their total control and squawk conditions, which would be no bad thing for it would be safer than being lower, however I still think that it is not a good place to be in, I am only concerned with the safety of transit, if there were some North/South directional flow rules it would be safer!

[Hooligan Bill]

Peter B,

The reason I mentioned the 1500ft rule is because I have quite often heard it used as a reason for saying that the LLC is unsafe. As pointed out, the corridor is exempt from this particular part of the Low Flying Rules. However, as you quite rightly say, you are still required to comply with the 'alight clear' aspects of Rule 5. This is always going to be a problem with single engine helis over a built up area, although operators of these contraptions seem to apply their own interpretation of this rule, depending on circumstance that suit themselves. Unfortunately there weren't that many single engine helis and Warrington was not so big when the LLC was introduced.

One option available, especially now that the vertical limit has been raised, is using the airspace to the east of Warrington, North of the Thelwall Viaduct. This is Class G and will allow a transit without the need to overfly large parts of Warrington.

Finally if you think the corridor is dangerous you want to take a look at the North Wales coast on weekends when the weather is fine. There is a procession of west and east bound traffic all normally congregated in the 1500 to 2000 ft band and is far worse than anything that seems to go on in the LLC.


:rolleyes:

[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: Hooligan Bill ]

[Yogi-Bear]

PB,
So it's the glide range of eggbeaters that causes the anxiety? You are right; that bit gives me some anxiety in f/w. If you feel that there aren't enough green bits to follow around Warrington, I have found that Liverpool App. are always amenable to a request for a VFR transit along the lines of Kirby - LPL - WHI, not above 1500'. "The Greener but Wetter Route" :cool:

[Vfrpilotpb]

Yogi,

Thats the route I normally take, and I find it feel more relaxed , than the LLC!

My Regards