Questions about ATC Training

[Jert]

I've been spending quite a lot of time reading through posts on this forum but there are a few questions I can't seem to find answers for.

1) Obviously the training is quite long and you get £60 a week for living allowance but is there accommodation provided or are you left to find your own nearby flat? If it is provided what’s it like?

2) I have read that only 66% of people make it through training, from people who have made it through training the 34% of people who don’t make it, are they just not as interested, don’t work quite so hard or is the training generally hard and requires a high level of intelligence?

3) Is there much maths involved?

4) If you fail an assessment are there any second chances or is it a ‘you’re out’ attitude?

[The Many Tentacles]

1. Accommodation is not provided, you have to find your own although NATS (I'm assuming you're referring to NATS here) will give you a list of guesthouses, B&Bs in the local area which is where most people seem to end up.

2. Your last answer, it doesn't require a huge amount of intelligence, just a certain way of thinking would be the best way to describe it. The training is hard though, but the end result is worth it.

3. No, if you can divide by 6. If an aircraft is doing 480knots, how many miles will it travel in a minute is about the limit of my maths. Other than that it's working out 40% off my overtime payments so I have an idea of my extra take home pay each month :}

4. That depends, I failed the last course at the College and got a recourse. Others weren't offered one. It depends on how you failed and your attitude. If you trundle along doing the bare minimum to get through and screw up then don't expect much. If you've worked your arse off and people can see that and see you're interested then your chances improve. Sometimes, if it's clear to the instructors you don't have what it takes then again, there's no second chance, although I only saw that once in about 15 months at the College.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Problem with this game is that many sail through the College and get high marks for book and simulator work but they can't hack it when they get to a live situation. I've seen a student who arrived on station, did initial training on the simulators but couldn't even walk into the ops room!! Another one decided that the separation standards taught were too close so would not uses less than 4nm. There are also personality clashes. ATC involves a lot of team work, especially at busy Centres and some people can't work in a team. Don't ask me why these traits do not become obvious during initial training because I don't know.

You don't have to be clever. I have 2 GCE O levels and worked alongside people with degrees and similar qualifications. Makes no difference - you can either do it or you can't.

[PeltonLevel]

2 GCE O levelsDone in 1960 or 1961? About equivalent to a modern degree then?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Yes, you could be right I suppose!

[chevvron]

When I got in as an ATCA (now called ATSA) I was able to apply for a cadetship after 12 months by virtue of having one 'A' level vintage 1966. What's that worth nowadays?

[On the beach]

Is there much maths involved?

As mentioned above the only maths you need is the ability to divide speed by 60 to determine how much time/distance you have to sort out a problem with crossing traffic at the same level. You will find most ATCOs use this figure of 60 to divide into miles when driving long distances to see if they are "on schedule." :)

I would also add the ability to divide by 300 to determine if aircraft are going to be above or below an ideal descent profile. e.g. an aircraft at 10 mile final at 3,000 feet is on an ideal descent profile whereas an aircraft at 6,000 feet at 10 miles from touchdown is going to cause everyone a few problems, specially your college instructors. :=

[Jert]

thanks for the answes guys they really helped, I've just got a few further questions though.

1) How long is it that you get paid £10k a year for until you recieve a pay rise? It it just while you are training or is this for the first year or even longer?

2) Every comment I read on here about the job itself says that it is the best job ever but has anyone on here qualified and then when doing the job thought this isn't for me?

3) How many hours a week/month do you work?

Thanks.

[aluminium persuader]

I'm another who has managed to get by without much education - one grade E A-level from the last century:ok:

Regarding Q2, I have known a few people hang their hats up & walk away without looking back. Seems mainly due to the political (correctness) situation - "why would you do a job where if you make an honest mistake you can not only lose your livelihood but be prosecuted & spend the rest of your life behind bars (eg Italy & Japan), when you could earn the same in IT etc" is the general theme.

Most seem to be in it for life though!

[Vortex Issues]

10k while at the college (6-9 months minimum depending on course type and your performance), then a pay rise when you get posted followed by further rises once you validate.

At the unit you work roughly 18 days (3 cycles) per month. With leave you work about half a year :-).

At TC the cycle is split in to 2 mornings, 07-1400 2 afternoons, 14-2200 and 2 nights, 22-0700. There are other shifts you do instead of nights but too many for me to go through.

[canarios]

Hi

I have a few questions of my own on this topic. I recently passed NATS Stage 3 and got my medical clearance a few weeks ago, just waiting to be allocated to a course. Very excited, but it's all gone rather quiet.

If anyone can offer advice it'd be much appreciated.

1. How long is it likely to take to be allocated to a course? I am expecting (hoping) to start January 2011, but don't know how long I will have to wait for confirmation.

2. Their website says you will be able to state a preference for whether you take Area or Aerodrome training - but when do they ask you? Or are you just supposed to ring them up and tell them? I'm not even sure I have a preference at this stage, but I'm planning to visit Heathrow tower in the near future, so I'd hate to be in the position of deciding I really wanted/didn't want to do aerodrome controlling for example, when they had already allocated me to a different course.

3. Is there a perception that one discipline is 'better' than the other? Area training takes longer, so is it considered more difficult?

4. I was told they are reducing the numbers of students they can accept at Bournemouth since they are planning to move the whole facility to CTC Whiteley in August 2011. So do you think this will impact the type of courses they will be able to provide during that period?


Thank you

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Every job in ATC is different. Don't imagine that because the Area course is longer that it is harder. When you get to your unit it could take you a year to validate. Area control is very complex; Approach Radar may not be so complex but requires long periods of high levels of concentration. I've seen very competent approach controllers fail to make it on area, and vice versa.

Whether you go for aerdrome or area is up to you. Why did you want to work in ATC? If it was to be close to aircraft then you should go for aerodrome. If you do manage to get into the tower at Heathrow you'll see what I mean! It will blow your mind. On the other hand, if radar control fascinates you then area or approach is the option to go for.

Of course, you may not get what you want so be prepared! I've done most ATC jobs and thoroughly enjoyed every one.

Best of luck with whatever you get.

[LessThanSte]

On the last point;

Im currently going through Eurocontrol selection but obviously this is only area control, being stuck in a room staring at a screen (much like now, then!).

Im wondering what the switch between area and aerodrome/approach is like. Do many people do it? Presumably the ones that do have to sit through another year of training or is a relatively simple switch. Is it common that people will move from area to approach after a few years of area control, or is it generally not done due to a number of hurdles, both training based and in terms of actually getting a job?

[samotnik]

The problem is that nowadays nobody wants to retrain you for another rating, because it costs money. If you hold a valid ATC licence, you are usually quite well paid and this salary remains during your training. It generates a significant cost. And today's ANSP must be 'cost-effective'. It's cheaper to hire a freshman, pay him some minimal salary and train him then even if the risk for him to fail is higher.

It's saaaad, because not everybody wishes to do the same thing for his whole life. Switching to another rating helps to avoid boredom, because even if ATC is fun, no fun remains fun for 40 years.

Yes, I know that Heathrow Director was absolutely content doing the same thing for forty years. :)

[andrijander]

LessThanSte:

also be aware that Maastricht will be your employment place if you pass. I mean, there's only Maastricht. If it was NATS for example, you could choose different locations to work at through your career.

All things said, it is not a bad place to live. It isn't the best either, but working in aviation and having a decent salary will allow you to travel a lot.

Anyway, all the best!

[canarios]

Hi

On a related topic, if you join NATS doing approach/aerodrome and subsequently are posted to an airport, are you likely to stay there your whole career or is there a good chance NATS will require you to move locations at some point?

[Will_McKenzie]

Canarios,
If you get posted to a regional with tower and approach you would more than likely move at least once during your career. You are able to request to move to a certain place, e.g. if you are from Northern Ireland you may request Belfast Aldergrove if you weren't posted there direct from the college, and although there will be a waiting list so to speak you should get there at some point!
Once you get towards the midpoint of your career (when you are earning lots) you would more likely be asked to go to a higher pay scale airport (LL, KK, CC or Swanwick TC) as they would be able to afford controllers on the higher salary!
And as ever if you wanted a change of scenery completely you could always try your hand abroad as there are very few places the European ATC licence is no good!

[Gonzo]

Not sure I've heard of ATCOs being 'asked to go to a higher pay scale airport (LL, KK, CC or Swanwick TC' in the last 20 years!

[Will_McKenzie]

Just speaking from experience, as one of my mentors was told he had a choice of LL, CC or TC as his previous unit couldn't keep him on the high pay scale. Admittedly that was over 10 years ago, so what the company policy is now I don't know for sure! :-)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Will... I believe that might have been at the time various units were downgraded so some ATCOs were offered the chance to move to busier units to retain their grades. I know of a few who would not move and were happy to take a pay drop rather than take a reduction in living standards with the high cost of housing in the south. In the 22 years I worked at Heathrow Tower the place was never fully manned and if what I hear lately, the same applies to Swanwick - at least as far as the Heathrow sector is concerned. Very few people wanted to move to Heathrow or LATCC but it may be different now LATCC is at the seaside.

[Dan Dare]

I have come across ATCOs being "invited" to leave a smaller unit as they are more expensive than the airport contract allows for. I have seen this leading to their leaving nats too. Its a shame companies can't win contracts by being honest about how much a service really costs rather than having to cut their own throats to compete with the other dishonest types in order to stay on.

[Coppy87]

Hi everyone, I've been reading you recently and got very useful informations. There is a question I'd like to ask: Am I eligible to apply to NATS college even if I am from another country (Hungary)? I am currently at the Hungarian Military Academy and my major is military ATC (TWR) and I intend to apply because I'd like to be a civil ATC. There is another question: When do you think it is good to apply (during the year)? If I will be able to apply at all... Thanks!

[niknak]

Coppy,

Hungary is a member of the E.U. so you can apply but you'll need a very high standard of written and spoken English to pass the assesments, do the course and the job itself.

Best of luck. :ok:

[Coppy87]

Thanks niknak,

that's all I needed to know! ;) I think there's gonna be no problem with that coz I've been studying English for 12 years now 'n' my girlfriend is actually British. So I might just need to get some routine in using the language, the terms will not mean any obstacle as well... me think... :D