IFR to Bristol Filton

[Amcapt89]

Dear all,

I am looking for a bit of advice here.

I am about to take an IFR trip as PIC from EGTC (Cranfield) to EGTG (Bristol Filton). After an instrument departure I planned to join CAS at WCO (Westcott) NDB, and from there:

R41 NORRY L4 MALBY DCT OF

Planned Flight Level is 100.

I was wondering if you are aware of any particular procedure around the area, or something that is not noted on the AIP, of which I should be aware too.

Moreover I would really appreciate any IFR trip you would reccomend, from EGTC to any UK AD within 150 nm.

Many thanks...! :-)

amcapt89

[7AC]

Just file and go, you will probably be led most of the way by Bristol radar.
Enjoy the trip!!!

[bookworm]

I do Cambridge to Filton from time to time.

The route you're looking for is WCO Q41 NORRY L9 MALBY DCT OF.

If you're simply doing this for the exercise of flying IFR on airways, fine. But it's FL100 for a 35 minute trip in a light piston-engined aircraft. There are three options, of which that's one.

Operationally, I would recommend a simple direct routing at lower level, getting a traffic service from Brize. In my experience, handover to Filton is seamless. There's a slot in the Daventry CTA at FL60 if you need it, and pay attention to Hinton and Weston. You can also fly a similar route low level VFR.

My preference depends upon the weather. Mid-level IFR is the default. If there's significant low level turbulence or icing expected at those levels, I'll go airways. If there's summer convection, with high bases, I'll go VFR below it -- it's easier to avoid the worst of it that way.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

What is the current fee, for a Pa28-140.

Living in Bristol many years ago, and based at Lulgsate (Bottom) never needed to go to Filton.

Many times as ground visitor, was there for the Concorde first flight.

Have friends close to Filton, so might go by air from Biggin, rather motor car.

As to route of choice, I would always go cross country, with mil assistance.

glf

[bookworm]

What is the current fee, for a Pa28-140.

Looks like £26 +VAT if it's < 1000 kg.

Bristol Filton Airport - fly to the heart of bristol (http://www.bristolfilton.co.uk/terms_and_conditions/charges.php)

Filton isn't cheap, but it is convenient and friendly.

[Steve N]

FYI Filton have announced they will no longer be operating weekends from w/b 2nd August.

Steve

[Amcapt89]

Hello everyone,

and many thanks for your help.


If you're simply doing this for the exercise of flying IFR on airways, fine. But it's FL100 for a 35 minute trip in a light piston-engined aircraft. There are three options, of which that's one.

Operationally, I would recommend a simple direct routing at lower level, getting a traffic service from Brize. In my experience, handover to Filton is seamless. There's a slot in the Daventry CTA at FL60 if you need it, and pay attention to Hinton and Weston. You can also fly a similar route low level VFR.

My preference depends upon the weather. Mid-level IFR is the default. If there's significant low level turbulence or icing expected at those levels, I'll go airways. If there's summer convection, with high bases, I'll go VFR below it -- it's easier to avoid the worst of it that way.

This flight will be an IFR flight in order to keep my IR proficient on the Airways system.

Other options like low level IFR or VFR routing, will be considered in case of a denied access to the CAS. The choice will depend on WX, as you mentioned too.

Again, many thanks indeed! :ok:

[IO540]

You should not be denied access to CAS if you file the FP at a decisively high level so there is no possibility of mis-understanding.

Some pilots have filed IFR FPs for say FL050, and found that London Control would not talk to them - even though the FP would have taken them into Class A CAS pretty soon.

I don't know the limits on this, and multiple enquiries over the years have never established what rules London Control apply to accept/reject a flight plan, but it could be that the minimum sensible initial filing level should be about FL090. Personally I always file at/above this and usually FL140 because one usually gets much better routings up there.

However, if departing from further up north, where CAS base might be FL105, one's filing level needs to be even higher, otherwise LC (or Manchester, etc) will think you are not a serious pilot. You have to file for a decisive entry into CAS.

The exception to the above is if you are departing from an airport in CAS (say Bournemouth) where a lower level filing should result in a continuous IFR service - providing the departure route is in CAS (e.g. the airway going to ORTAC).

I have just started up FlightPlanPro (http://flightplanpro.eu/Home.html) and EGTC-EGTG FL100 gives me this awfully complicated route

-EGTC1000
-N0150F100 DCT BZN DCT
-EGTG0046

:)

which validates for today at 1000Z. In fact that is the route offered by the new Eurocontrol "route suggest" feature, which is available via FPP if you use the Avbrief validation option.

The same route is generated for FL080.

For FL060 I get

-EGTC1000
-N0150F060 DCT NEDEX DCT
-EGTG0046

but as I say above that may be a dodgy thing to try and file.

The actual route flown on the say is likely to be significantly different from what you file, due to traffic, and this is true anywhere near the LTMA.

IMHO, to learn about real IFR, do a long flight somewhere e.g. EGTC-LKPR. You will get a few hours of practice talking to ATC and asking for shortcuts, etc.

I tend to find that the biggest bit of work is managing a flight where bad weather needs to be avoided. This is why I file high; one can nearly always ask for a "stop climb" if one finds that at say FL100 one is VMC with 200nm vis :) Real IFR needs oxygen to be practical, due to the vertical extents of typical IMC formation in N Europe - unless one is so picky about weather that one's currency will end up being poor.

I think I sent you an email.

[ab33t]

Another good one is LFAT always nice to do .

London have nothing to do with accepting or rejecting FP its all to do with Brussels , what London tend to do and I undestand why they do it . You will be in there air space for a very short space and at low altitude they will fob you off to Farnborough or the northern controllers ie Bristol asap .

[IO540]

London have nothing to do with accepting or rejecting FP its all to do with Brussels

Can you please fill in detail? I would be very interested to understand how this works.

I can file an IFR FP from Goodwood to Aberdeen, 2400ft. IFPS does not reject it.

Upon departure from Goodwood, I call up London Info to get the airways clearance for London Control. They have nowt for me, and they cannot get it because LC haven't got the flight plan...

What happened?

(Let's disregard the fact that filing IFR at 2400ft is pointless, but the same happens at say FL050, which is definitely in CAS some of the way).

In another forum, one ATCO said that the IFR sectors use "filters" to reject flight plans, so the FP can be with IFPS but London Control have actually dumped it. When I asked for more info he said it was probably confidential ;) I never found out any more about this.

Does IFPS look at the FP and refuses to distribute it to the IFR sector controllers, subject to some rules? If so, what are those rules?

[Amcapt89]

Many thanks for your advice!

I initially planned FL100, but as you said, apparently, London Control likes quite a lot FL090, therefore I might go for that FL instead.

The route you found out, it will probably be the most direct one; unfortunately what Eurocontrol does not seem to know, is that according to AIP AD EGTG section, easterly IFR traffic inbound shall route MALBY - OF. That's why I went for the aformentioned route.

I will take the chance to have a long IFR flight, as I'm sure it's a nice experience on a GA a/c.

I have read your email, many thanks indeed; I found your website really useful, and I loved the video in the homepage...!

Again, many thanks!

amcapt89

[Roffa]

Amcapt89,

Has anyone ever pointed you to the UK and Ireland Standard Route Document (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/srd/SRDDOC.pdf)?

It may be a good starting point for planning future trips.

p.s. FL090 is the minimum level for overflying the London TMA so that would generally be the lowest level available for transiting any part of said TMA.

[Amcapt89]

I wasn't aware of that document; what I did was to take the Aerads out, UK LO 1 and 2, reading all the bits and pieces on the chart as well as reading AIP AD section for Arrivals at EGTG, and looking at plan B and C.

Thanks for pointing it out, it will be a good starting point to plan this very next route.

Cheers.

amcapt89

[IO540]

Time has moved on from reading standard route documents. Get Flight Plan Pro. That is what all modern IFR pilots use.

ATC tend to ignore the published airway routes on the day anyway - traffic in CAS is managed tactically using radar.

If you are a keen reader of the route docs, you may be able to develop a Eurocontrol-acceptable route that way but this is hard work and there is no guarantee it will be accepted because of short-notice airway blockages etc.

It was realised a few years ago that there is only one practical way to develop valid IFR routes, and that is starting with an airway database, running a maze algorithm on that, applying published restrictions, submitting that to Eurocontrol for validation, and parsing the inevitable error messages and amending the route iteratively, with level changes if that helps.

What Eurocontrol have done is in effect set up a city with a load of one-way and timed- access streets, but there are no roadsigns, and no maps published ;) The only way to find out valid routes is to drive around and then wait for the county counrt summonses to arrive for driving the wrong way down a one-way street, etc. and then iteratively amend one's routing. No kidding.

[mm_flynn]

Although sometimes a look at the SRD won't hurt. In FlightPlanPro, if you select the Utilities menu there is an item called SRD lookup. You can then put a departure or arrival and it will look up all of the SRDs that go to/from that point (it also includes FIR entry/exit points). This can be particularly useful if FPP is struggling to get a route through the TMA.

In this particular case it doesn't matter as there isn't a standard route between these two fields. However, there is one from EGTK (which is the closest and on track) and this is DCT MALBY DCT OF, which is pretty much the same ground track as DCT BZN DCT.

In previous posts, controllers have indicated climbing traffic up N859 or A34 or Q41 and then descending it down L9 is easier than routing across near KIDLI. I am not a controller so don't know if this is true. What certainly is true is the controller will point you where he needs you to be regardless of your planned route.

[IO540]

I believe Roffa here is in ATC and is a specialist in this area.

[Roffa]

You are too kind IO540. I think even my Mum would hesitate to call me a specialist. Journeyman is perhaps more accurate!

I'd say there still is a place for the SRD. It's there as a simple guide (easily carried about in printed or PDF form) and, as it says inside, the routes are not necessarily mandatory but 'are promulgated to identify optimum routeings for operators with due regard for the ATC system.' Then, once airborne, nothing is set 100% in stone and tactical requirements will dictate a certain amount of necessary flexibility with regards to what is filed and what actually happens... though they shouldn't be too far apart.

[IO540]

I don't think there is any issue with being airborne.

Hilariously, if I told you I had a filed an IFR flight plan, FL150, for you, from Goodwood to Prague, but told you nothing of the route, you could get airborne, fly east, call up London Info/ London Control, carry no paperwork at all, and you would be fine - because ATC tell you where they want you, all the way along. One waypoint at a time, usually, sometimes 2 or 3.

And an astonishing number of old-timers do fly this way. They hack together some route, which usually gets rejected by IFPS, then they refile with REROUTE ACCEPTED and once this is in the system, they depart, knowing nothing of the route that is actually in the system.

The issue is getting the route which you have designed validated in the first place. The SRDs help with that but only if you have lots of time to burn, and I think will deliver success only perhaps 50% of the time (especially on the above route).

IMHO developing a route and getting it validated is desirable because then you know what you should be flying in e.g. the lost comms scenario, and you are in a better position to ask ATC for shortcuts, using waypoints on your route.

[Roffa]

Hilariously, if I told you I had a filed an IFR flight plan, FL150, for you, from Goodwood to Prague, but told you nothing of the route, you could get airborne, fly east, call up London Info/ London Control, carry no paperwork at all, and you would be fine - because ATC tell you where they want you, all the way along. One waypoint at a time, usually, sometimes 2 or 3.

And an astonishing number of old-timers do fly this way. They hack together some route, which usually gets rejected by IFPS, then they refile with REROUTE ACCEPTED and once this is in the system, they depart, knowing nothing of the route that is actually in the system.

I think I will spread the word in Swanwick that anybody joining CAS should only be given a clearance to first waypoint then just the phrase "flight planned route" and wait to see what happens...

[IO540]

No chance of that ever happening. All over Europe, most of the controllers would be fired if they ever did that. The radio would be very silent....

They probably could do it for FL100-FL200 GA though. One rarely sees another aircraft around up there.

One good reason they don't do this may be to maintain radio contact. Most non-commercial pilots, myself included, have no idea what the next frequency would be, and they keep changing around.

And if one goes non-radio, the 'lost comms' procedure comes in and you are implicitly cleared all the way to landing on the filed runway, and I don't think this idea goes down well with ATC.

[mm_flynn]

I think I will spread the word in Swanwick that anybody joining CAS should only be given a clearance to first waypoint then just the phrase "flight planned route" and wait to see what happens...

that would almost be like the US!

'Cleared as filed' and then go 1000 miles on autopilot with just a few twists of the comms button for sector handovers (until you get to NYC...).

[Roffa]

One good reason they don't do this may be to maintain radio contact. Most non-commercial pilots, myself included, have no idea what the next frequency would be, and they keep changing around.

And if one goes non-radio, the 'lost comms' procedure comes in and you are implicitly cleared all the way to landing on the filed runway, and I don't think this idea goes down well with ATC.

You don't have to know sector boundaries or frequencies, they would always be given at the appropriate time.

Genuine lost comms are lost comms, doesn't cause ATC much angst at all as procedures are in place for them. Procedures are a bit more robust than they were pre 9/11 though so anyone thinking of using lost comms on a more routine and less genuine basis might want to rethink...

[IO540]

I think "own nav as filed" is totally against European ATC "controlled airspace" (with emphasis on "controlled") mentality that this will never happen in Europe.

You can get the same result (without it ever being called that by name, of course) within a given country e.g. I have had clearances right across Belgium, etc.

But there are always issues with national frontiers. These seem to be dealt with by letters of agreement between adjacent units, so the traffic flows smoothly, but this also means you will never get a clearance beyond the limit in the LOA. Yet, you are "cleared to destination", on an IFR flight plan, and this clearance cannot be practically withdrawn (within civilised Europe).

Eurocontrol is the funny one. Having met Eurocontrol people on occassions, they seem to live in an alternate universe, with their 4D etc proposals. They will have to dismantle the European national political systems, and ATC mentality, before this can happen. But it doesn't stop them going to exhibitions and preaching this stuff, alongside impressive demos of how ADS-B can replace primary radar :)

[Roffa]

I think that you have some misconceptions :)

[IO540]

I think that you have some misconceptions

I just knew you were the expert, and would soon put all of us right, with a detailed contribution to knowledge :ok:

[Roffa]

You're welcome.

p.s. having contributed quite a lot in the past, to find it ignored in favour of dogma, one soon learns to give up offering. Hey ho.