CBs - A tad too close

[PIC1DAY]

Anyone been too near a thunderstorm? Flying at the weekend (with an instructor) and witnessed 2 lightning strikes approx 5 nm away. Might have been 10 nm but it felt too close for comfort. Anyway, we flew the other way promto...on my request. The comment when safely back on the ground was that it is important to experience this kind of weather, proving the point that you won't drop out of the sky. Still, don't think I would particularly recommend it. Any similar stories?

[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: PIC1DAY ]

[Fuji Abound]

I have always taken the view if CB's are around so long as you can see them and stay away it is not too big a problem. Just how far to stay away is the trick! The real problem of course comes when they are embedded, and this makes me very nervous flying IMC without weather radar, unless there is little risk of embedded CBs. I think your instructor was very wise - at some point if you fly enough you will see lightening or at least the warning sounds on the VHF. At least you will have a better idea of the sort of distances to be away from the storm cell(s) and yet be able to continue your journey - or to turn around!

[FlyingForFun]

Pic1day - I had a very similar experience. It was my check out for the qualifying cross-country (club rules - you have to be checked out by a different instructor before doing QXC), so it was the first time I'd flown with this instructor (although she went on to become by regular instructor afterwards).

She told me the go/no-go decision was entirely mine. All the forecasts showed scattered CB at 3000', so we went. Immediately after departure we came across a nasty shower. It was moving quickly, though, and in less than 5 mins we were on our way in improving weather. By the time we reached the south coast, it was CAVOK - beautiful blue skies with a few whisps of stratus very high up. I found our first turning point easilly, and the instructor diverted me to Greenham Common.

I planned the route to Greenham Common and set off in the right direction, but after about 10 mins a huge band of cloud appeared in front of us. Being very naive at the time (even more than I am now), I didn't realise it was CB, and decided to try to get underneath it through the rain. I now have a much more healthy respect for CB than I did before! :eek:

We looked left and right, but couldn't see the end of this band of cloud anywhere. Considered diverting to Goodwood, but decided to hang around for a bit and see if the cloud moved. Eventually the CB moved out the way, but there was still plenty of other cloud around, and my instructor let me go through it on instruments. Very bumpy - I recommend that everyone should do this, because it's really nothing like doing a rate-1 180-degree turn with foggles on!

I think we both breathed a sigh of relief when we came out the other side and saw White Waltham in bright sunshine below us!

Here's hoping for blue skies in future!

FFF
------------

[bcfc]

FFF

Totally agree about practicing instruments in cloud (with a safety pilot or instructor of course).

My instructor took me into some light cloud for my instrument appreciation before doing the same with foggles...very different and very educational. I have a healthy respect for the white/grey stuff up there.

[kala87]

Be aware that, in the right conditions, a towering cumulus cloud can grow into a dangerous CB in a few minutes.

5 nm sounds too close for comfort to me. CB's can be associated with nasty clear air turbulence and wind shear at this range.

[FNG]

Do many/most instructors do PPL instrument appreciation in real IMC, or do lots of people do it all on the foggles?. I assume and hope that it's the former. As others have pointed out here and elsewhere, there's a real benefit in that it convinces you (if you neeeded any convincing) that wandering into cloud as a basic PPL is a definite no-no.

A collateral benefit may be getting a taster of VFR on top, which scores highly on the surly-bonds-of-earth-slippage index and acts as an inspiration for getting an IMC or IR (I know that this is neither the only nor the best reason for getting such ratings, but it helps). I remember my instructor allowing me to sweat through real-life clouds and rewarding my shaky efforts with aerobatics in the sunshine above the cloud deck: one of the most enjoyable lessons I had.

[FlyingForFun]

FNG,

My flying instructor (at least, the one who instructed me for most of my course) took my into IMC and VFR-on-top to do radio nav - not quite as much fun as aerobatics I'll grant you, but doing radio nav on top was excellent because as well as real IMC experience, it meant the nav-aids were the only way to navigate. :cool:

That IMC experience was worthwhile. But it certainly wasn't the same as flying through the nasty stuff with my next instructor. This definitely was not intentional on her part - we just got stuck the wrong side of the weather, and that was the only way back. :eek: Had I been on my own I'd have had no choice except to divert.

Flying instruments through a thin layer of stratus, or a puffy little cumulus, is certainly not the same as flying through rainclouds a few miles from CB in my limited experience!

Good point about getting a taster for the IMC rating. I have to admit I was impressed by the cloud-scape when I was VFR-on-top. I'm not sure that I will go for the IMC rating, though - I can't see myself keeping current enough to be safe, especially since most of the more "interesting" planes are not IMC-rated. :D

FFF
--------

PS - never tell some one "Under no circumstances....." because they will - FNG you know what I'm talking about! :mad:

[FNG]

FlyforFun: Gotcha!

What page are you up to? When you get fired, I may be able to recommend a good employment lawyer....

PS: Thought the one about the UN Tornado force acronym was a cracker, and I am assured by someone who was there that it is true.

PPS: If you don't stop using the dreadful term "plane" to describe flying machines I shall be forced to reveal to you the whereabouts of another 97 page thread, reading which will cause you to suffer a lingering and gruesome death. As any fule kno, it is an aeroplane or an aircraft, and not a tool-thingy for levelling off wonky doors.

[ 17 July 2001: Message edited by: FNG ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I used to take my PPL students real IMC if the chance ever arose just so they knew that the foggles business was absolute tosh. Plus I needed the IMC hours and if you could get VMC on top and then take the foggles off them they were always enthralled.

I was at 1200' on a curved high speed base leg to the runway as there was a CB moving towards the field and then a bolt of lightning hit the top of a castle 1.4nm from my position at about 500' below - could see the sparks!

A sharp turnaround and divert to Halfpenny Green ( NOT - I SAY AGAIN NOT - Wolverhampton International ) ensued.

RAF Shawbury on that occassion were magnificent during the whole unplanned diversion even calling HPG on the land line to pass the details and stop them closing - bless them.

WWW

[FlyingForFun]

FNG - let's just say, well, more than half way, and leave it at that....

As for the "plane" thing, I personally think that "plane" is much better than the American "airplane" - but for the sake of my sanity I'll stick to "aeroplane" from now on.

And back onto (almost) the original topic of the thread.... my instructor said that one of the reasons he used to take students into IMC was to see if they were peeking out the side of their foggles. He said some students could fly perfectly with foggles, but take them into cloud, and the aeroplane was all over the place! (Fortunately, I wasn't one of those...)


FFF
------------

[Final 3 Greens]

P1CDAY

The thing about CBs is that they are all different and therefore not so easy to predict.

Sometimes you can fly past quite near without any effects. Other days, you will experience turbulence or precipitation from the cloud deck above (e.g. hail) and flying will seem dodgy.

If you fly regularly, you will encounter CBs from time to time. The best view that I could give you is to treat them with caution and to treat everyone on it's merits.

Don't forget that the average thunderstorm has the power of a smal atomic device - but then again you flew near a CB and lived ... so its all about judgement.

If in doubt, ask for a PIREP from ATC and i3 they don;t have one, be cautious and avoid by 10-20NM.

I've (inadvertently) penetrated a CB in a Cherokee and I am still here - but I would not recommend it to you!

Enjoy the flying

F3G

;) ;)

[jayemm]

During my IMC training I asked my instructor to take me into 'bad weather' so that I could get some experience, using his judgement. I figured it would be better to do this with an expert than on my own by accident. We flew into a heavy shower which turned out to be a CB. The experience was invaluable, and taught me just what could happen (rapid descent followed by ascent and significant turbulence) and how to react.

A few weeks later we hit an embedded CB whilst in the hold over Southampton...we got hail, sharp descents and ascents, and I was able to maintain control whilst we got out with some dignity.

In short, everyone doing an IMC should get some experience in real cloud (more challenging than Foggles), and 'bad weather' with a sensible and experienced instructor.

[DOC.400]

Some of my best flying has been with CB's around, not embedded I hasten to add, but the vis around the build ups have been stunning and no probs in avoiding.

Hey, Spelling Police Alert.....Shall we allow 'plane. As in apostrophy plane, short for aeroplane?? :D

[El Desperado]

Jayemm,

I hope you're not serious there - 'Everyone should experience bad weather <snip> experienced instructor' ?

Are you mad ? The odd scattered CB poses no threat to a well-briefed GA pilot as Doc400 says, but as for intentionally flying through them....

I fly a 757 for a day job and I wouldn't take it within 10nm of an active CB, let alone something the size of a four-seater. Aircraft goes in.. small shiny chunks of metal come out. Microbursts, windshear, internal velocities of over 5000fpm, hail, ice, electrical interference with radio aids, enough water to put out the the insiginificant little spark in your Lycoming. I think I've forgotten more than I put in.

As for embedded cbs... words fail me.

If conditions are, or are forecast to become convective with the possibility of embedded cbs (with associated turb and icing) ask yourself the following questions:

1) Am I instrument rated ?
2) Do I have wx radar ?
3) Is my aircraft anti/de-ice equipped ?
4) Have I filed an IFR flight plan ?
5) Do I absolutely 100% positively need to do this trip ?

If you answered no to any of the above, it's time to leave it in the hangar.

Anyone remember that American 737 brought down by a microburst on finals ? JM...I actually doubt you went right through the centre of a fully active cell as you would be unlikely to be posting about it now if you had !

Safe flying folks.

[411A]

You folks with light aircraft had better stay well away from CB's.
Recall years ago on DC-6s (no radar) and we flew into a few. Definately not recommended, especially when a lightening strike removed about two inches of one of the #4 engine propellor blades.
NOT good!

[jayemm]

El Desperado, I wasn't very clear. I meant get some experience in bad weather....not CBs.

I agree with what you've said, but I wanted to get some experience in the kind of real weather I might expect when flying IMC. In this respect I meant wind, turbulence and rain in dense cloud. This is mainly because the perspective and feel of flying in these conditions is very different to training with Foggles.

I certainly don't advocate deliberately flying into or near CBs for the experience. From my own point of view, if embedded CBs sit in a forecast I don't fly. The experience I did have with my instructor was very sobering, and I won't take any chances.

[Keef]

I did once fly through the edge of a CB. From that experience, I decided NEVER AGAIN.

I do fly when there are CBs around as long as they aren't embedded - and I can see and avoid. Definitely NOT the way to go in a non-deiced single.

Cowardice Prolongs Active Life, as Rufus will tell you!

[Final 3 Greens]

Keef

Me too! It gets scary when you can't read the instruments because the needles are shaking about so much or the AI has tumbled doesn't IT?

Jayemm

I don't wish to have a go at you, but your experience of a CB is at the very mild end of the spectrum. I clipped the edge of an unforecast embedded cell under instruction as did you, but we stalled three times due to windshear (which created severe turb), suffered several big wing drops, gained 2000 feet and then lost over 4000 feet in a couple of minutes in vertical winds and recovered at 400ft over the channel having been "spat out" into VMC. NB, we did not encounter icing, hail or lightning, any of which could have finished the job nicely.

We were extremely lucky to have survived as we could not really interpret the instruments and even if we could have, there would not have been a whole lot that could have been done to control the a/c.

It is good that your experience has added to your flying confidence and I do agree that IMC training is best done in IMC.

Just wanted to put a bit of context around why you may have received some strong feedback!

[FNG]

Doc 400, I'm not the Spelling Police, I'm from the Office for Suppression of Highly Inappropriate Terminology (we usually use our acronym as the full title's a bit of a mouthful)

It has, however, just been pointed out to me that when I crash into a wood I will remove the upper layer of timber and must, accordingly, be operating a plane. On this basis FFF can have a terminology clearance.

[Human Factor]

As with El Desperado and his 757, we keep the Wonderbus at least 10nm away from CBs!!!

Please recognise a good hint when you see one.

[FlyingForFun]

FNG, thanks for the clarification, I feel that the acronym of your association is extremely appropriate with regard to the operation of "planes" in the method you describe.

I shall now continue to operate my plane, albeit well clear of any wood, in the same way as I wave a power drill above my head for no apparent reason, and a similar fashion to Eminem's recent well-publicised use of a chainsaw (which was also well clear of a wood, although it was fairly close to some wood, or more likely sawdust) :D

FFF
---------

[JB007]

You can print off AIC's from the CAA's website...

Can I suggest pink AIC 124 (I think!)/1996
THE EFFECT OF THUNDERSTORMS AND ASSOCIATED TURBULENCE ON AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS

[Vfrpilotpb]

I remember my old man explaining to me the power of CBs, he flew Beaufighters in the Med during WW2, flying around the toe of Italy they were bounced by two 109's unable to shake these two off they purposely entered the CB that was nearby, so did the two 109s, now the Beau was a very strong and powerfull A/c but when they emerged some 2/3 mins later what the saw gave them heart for falling out of the base of the CB were variouse bits that looked like aircraft panels followed by an engine with a prop still spinning, their Beau was stressed so badly that it never flew again, somthing to do with the main spar being bent, so as others have said, stay well away from any CB by at least 10nm or more.