RAF Low Level Fighters

[chipsto]

Hi folks, long time reader, first time poster.

I've got my first lesson in about 4 weeks time. I've booked a 2 hour trial lesson from Inverness with the hope of reaching the west coast and seeing a bit of where I'm from from the air.

Having grown up there and seen lots of low flying tornados, buccaneers, f16's etc, what are the rules/precautions that the private pilot must follow to avoid getting in the way of the RAF?

[MIKECR]

The Kinloss and Lossie chaps usually speak to Inverness Radar when operating in that area.

[Whopity]

what are the rules/precautions that the private pilot must follow to avoid getting in the way of the RAF?Good Lookout and Stay above 500 feet!

[chipsto]

So is 500ft their low flying ceiling?

[Dusty_B]

500' Ceiling?...

It's a bit more complicated than that. In military terms, jet 'low flying' is anything below 2000'. In general though, there's not much training advantage to flying that high, so over most of the UK, IF the jet is at low level, it is likely to be (aiming to) cruise at 250' above ground level (AGL). In certain defined areas, crews may be cleared down to 100' AGL - the highlands being one such area. Rotary aircraft will be aiming to fly around 50', but are effectively cleared down to the surface (ie, hovering, simulating dropping off passengers, and to fly under power lines).

As to the rules/precautions, it is up to the crews of civil and military aircraft alike, to keep and good lookout and avoid each other. Aids may be available to do this (RADAR, Air Traffic advice and reports), but in the valleys this isn't available - so you are relying on
a) mark 1 eyeball, and
b) the Big Sky theory.

[Cusco]

Get above 2000ft as soon as you can after take-off and stay there till you need to land.............

[thing]

It always amazes me that two aircraft can be at the same 3 dimensional space at the same time when the rest of the sky is empty. I remember just before I went to Coningsby in '74 that the Station Commander and his nav were killed along with the pilot of a Pawnee crop duster in a mid air. I believe the same thing happened up near Sandtoft more recently.

[Whopity]

I recall passing a position report on HF in the middle of the Indian Ocean whilst en route to Gan; just as we were about to press the button a USAF C130 en route to Diego Garcia reported the same position, at the same level at the same time. Then we hit its wake but saw nothing.

[thing]

I remember a mate of mine who flies for BA saying that to reduce the chance of a mid air they cram everything into corridors ten miles wide.........

[stiknruda]

Big Sky Theory - I was indoctrinated with this, until one day.....

10 miles from a designated reporting point, day, VFR - beautiful blue sky with only one puffy 1500' diameter cloud on the nose:

Other a/c, "Cuemba, UN4762 at RAMAL, 3000, estimate BALOO 1535".

My last call was BALOO est RAMAL so I know we're on a reciprocal but he's at 3000 and I'm FL90. No sweat, bank 10 degrees just to avoid punching a hole in that cloud and just about to rehearse my call before pressing the tit AND WHOOSH dead ahead of me approaching and growing is an AN26 - reciprocal hdg my height.

He'd called 3000 - I'd assumed feet but he meant metres, could so easily have had my head down as the call seemed so innocuous or the vis much more hazy/smokey. There was no real issue as I'd seen him and just increased bank and descended to ensure spacing.

However, I doubt he saw me. I was flying a small twin, a PA31 Cheiftain. Would have made a hell of a mess if we'd clapped wings.

Mk I eyeball is not infallible either.

The callsigns and reporting pts have been made up to avoid finding a chart from yesteryear!

Stik

[chipsto]

"However, I doubt he saw me. I was flying a small twin, a PA31 Cheiftain. Would have made a hell of a mess if we'd clapped wings."

This is the thing I was wondering about. How on earth could an albeit skilled pilot flying a tornado at big speeds spot a C152 tottering along, without relying on radar etc.

But I did not realise there was a restriction in place. So you can fly in the highlands without worrying too much about military jets as long as you keep an eye on your watch :)

[sammypilot]

IF you can find the report on the accident at Carno in 1991 it may give your answer about RAF aircraft and Cessna 152's. In that case a Cessna on a photographic detail collided mid air with an RAF fighter, a Jaguar.

[MFC_Fly]

Chipsto, I wouldn't worry about it just yet.

Have your trial lesson and see if you enjoy the experience and want to continue your training. If you do then the you will be able to get the information about flying in the local area from your instructors.

You are lucky in that learning in the Moray Firth area is a great place to learn and gain lots of skills - the only thing really lacking is busy controlled airspace. You have the coastal plain to practice skills you will need over the majority of the UK, you have mountains for gaining mountain flying skills, you have the HRA with all its restrictions, danger areas, lots of mil fast jet and rotary and, to top it all, you have the fantastic scenery of the north of Scotland.

I have talked to several 'southern softy' pilots (:E) who would like to come north but are worried about the cumulo-granitus, whereas I have no worries about heading south. Learn to fly in the north and you will be confident of flying anywhere in the UK (once you have got your first VFR transit of busy CAS under your belt, which is easier than some would have you think).

[chipsto]

Thanks MFC.

I already know I want to fly. I flew several times with the ATC when I was younger and have been waiting for several years until I could afford to so again.

Once I am able to, I would like to be able to explore the highlands from the air and was a bit concerned that the RAF might put a stanglehold on what is essentially my goal.

Do you get over the the west very often?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Darn Sarf there are not so many low-level RAF, but there are plenty of other aircraft filling up the sky, such that on a sunny weekend a radar controller (if you can find such a thing working weekends, which you can't in many places) is likely to say something along the lines of

"too busy to give you a radar service because the sky is too full of aircraft"

"multiple contacts in your vicinity, possibly gliders"

or (from one airport not a million miles from here which only has primary radar)

"fast traffic passing right to left one mile ahead of you, no height information, possibly an airliner at 30,000'"

So, I wouldn't worry about the RAF, it isn't any better anywhere else.

[MFC_Fly]

Do you get over the the west very often?I like to try but the biggest thing, especially at the moment, is the weather over there (calm winds and lots of cloud and rain or high winds and scattered cloud with a few showers, but nothing just right recently :(). The HRA isn't too much of a problem, either go around it, over it or wait until Friday and the weekend and go through it. There are lots of lovely places to go out west, get your license and explore as much as you can afford!

You can always go north (Easter, Dornoch, Wick, Kirkwall, etc), east (Longside, Insch, Hatton), south (Dundee, Perth, Fife, Strathallan, etc) or really head south to Englandshire (don't forget your passport), so you are not stuck if the west coast is clagged out :ok: