Snot ATC

[Gary Halliday]

Whilst out and about this week over southern England VFR and avoiding a CTR + CTA vertically and laterally, I listened out on the radar frequency and found it only moderately busy with a couple of IFRs and a few VFR military helicopters, so I decided to give them a call. Gave details and asked for FIS. "Nothing to affect you, FIS not available free call XXX (destination)". Well OK I could see only 1 of the previously mentioned VFR mil helos, so there wasn`t that much about. I replied OK but that I`d maintain a listening watch on his frequency. " YOU MUST FREE CALL XXX THAT IS AN ATC INSTRUCTION FIS NOT AVAILABLE" was the reply. Again I replied that I accepted non FIS but would listen out. "YOU CANNOT LISTEN OUT CHANGE FREQUENCY NOW". Silence. Did I change or didn`t I. Would you or wouldn`t you. Consider the following.

1 The flight was not under any ATC authority.

2 The destination was a piddly little grass place with A/G radio only - it was 15 mins away at time of contact with the close to track Intl Airport. Free call them for what?.

3 The remaining track was partly over water and in any event from a D/D point of view the big airport was a much more able (you would hope) authority.

4 London Info would similarly be less effective in that I`d have to establish comms all over again.

5 What Rule of the Air or Air Traffic Control Regulation was I contravening and which one was he invoking to tell me what to do?.

I didn`t mind the lack of service just the rudeness.

GH

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: Gary Halliday ]

[ShyTorque]

Gary,

I have never heard of anyone being "forced" off a frequency before; if you think it is the most appropriate frequency for your safety then it is your right to stay on it. I think the ATCO was probably overloaded, working to rule, or just being an ar$e!

Was it perchance the ATC unit that have recently NOTAMed that pilots can't expect any service from them?

Next time just advise going to en-route freq as advised, but instead just maintain snotty's freq without saying anything further. Then you have a listening watch anyway; if you subsequently had to make a distress call he is listening whether he likes it or not....

Actually I don't think that there is technically such a thing as a listening watch in ATC terms although it does sometimes seem the most appropriate. In UK, outside of regulated airspace, the types of service we can expect are radar advisory, radar information, or flight information. But I'm sure you are already aware of that.

:)

This just re-inforces what I have maintained in the past, we are very definitely obliged to operate on a see and be seen basis whilst under VFR and cannot rely on ATC to keep us safe. Sometimes these days it appears we can rely on them 0% - even when it may seem logical to us to speak to them they don't want to know due to workload.

I am not knocking ATCOs; I admire what they do ;) but don't tell them I said that!

[BEagle]

Gary - did you call them on a published Initial Contact Frequency? Or on some discrete radar frequency?

If you called them on an ICF and requested flight information, they had absolutely no right to 'order' you to change frequency! FIS is never 'not available', but they can advise you to call a more appropriate agency. If they try to order you to do so, tell them that YOU will advise them when YOU decide, as Commander, that YOU wish to do so!

A while ago I advised a certain large aerodrome in central Oxfordshire (with a Class D CTR extending to 3500' on their QNH) that I was passing FL 50, climbing FL100 and crossing from south of their zone to the north. "Negative! Do not climb above FL 60 due to my traffic at blah-di-blah; maintain heading 280" came the terse reply. "Can do, but won't", said I. "I SAY AGAIN, MAINTAIN FL 60 AND HDG 280!!" howled the old bat on the other end of the radio. "And I say again, negative!! I AM continuing under VFR in Class G airspace, I AM climbing FL 100 to operate to the north of your CTR. Thank you for your time, squawking standby, to en-route, good day!" was the reply I gave. Now that was a while ago and perhaps I would be slightly more diplomatic nowadays. Not much though!

[Gary Halliday]

Exactly why they`re getting a snoto-gary-gram. They were notamming no radar outside CAS. I didn`t ask for it. This was on the ICF. Others, mil and civil were getting FIS but even then I didn`t mind the lack of service - you come to expect this sort of thing for your comfort and convenience. I did what I wanted and just listened out. I didn`t prolong the argument `cos that would just have cluttered the freqency and diverted attention from everyone`s proper jobs. His argument as you say would probably revolve around the status of a listening watch but I think he just heard another "XXX this is G-AAAA blah blah" and decided to bite. (Actually the transmission was as concise as you can make it).

ATCOS don`t behave like this when we`re at work, why pick on little aeroplanes?.

GH

[StrateandLevel]

Air Traffic were great until they were given radios.

[Chilli Monster]

"FIS not available" - B******T! It's the lowest form of ATC service available and there's no reason why he shouldn't give it. It's a NON-RADAR service after all and as such is easy to provide. If he doesn't want to then he has to give the reason i.e controller workload.

Secondly - he cannot INSTRUCT you to freecall another unit - contact, yes, as a handover of information has taken place, but freecall is a different matter. If you wish to monitor his frequency until you're within the protected range of your destination then it's up to you. I would be interested to know what the destination was and what range from that unit he tried to kick you across. I'd be happy to discuss the specifics of the case off forum if you'd prefer.

Either way - this particular ATCO needs a kick up the arse in my opinion.

CM

[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: Chilli Monster ]

[Spiney Norman]

Chilli Monster.
Speaking with my ATCO hat on. Re the kick up the arse..couldn't agree more and if I was his Local competency examiner I'd do it myself.

[FlyingForFun]

Hmm. I think I'd have probably just given him a polite "Roger", and then maintained the listening watch. I quite often ignore controllers' requests for me to freecall someone, anyway.

A little while ago, I was denied a MATZ crossing by a controller at an airfield just south-west of the Heathrow zone (although I'd like to take the opportunity to say that controllers at said facility are usually excellent, for both MATZ penetrations and LARS). Controller wanted me to go east of his field. I wanted to go east, too - that was the shortest way. But there was a nasty piece of weather there, which was moving nowhere fast. So I request the MATZ penetration to the west, and he denied it.

I know this is Class G, and as long as I remain clear of the ATZ I don't actually need permission, but in this cases I decided it would be prudent to stay clear of the MATZ. After all, they don't create MATZ's for nothing, do they? I hung around for a while, waiting for the weather to move, and it didn't. Tried to fly through the rain a couple of times, but vis was far too low. Eventually abandoned the flight.

It was too long ago for me to really care much about it any more, just interested to see what you guys would have done in the same situation (since it's vaguely on-topic).

Cheers,

FFF
----------

[A7E Driver]

While it's difficult to defend such poor service from ATC, in fairness to them, even though the freq you are working may not be too busy, he/she may also be covering other much busier sectors/freqs. That being said, I've never heard a controller before try to throw someone off the freq that just wanted to listen. A first.

[Whirlybird]

When flying an R22 back to Wolverhampton from Paris a couple of months back, very close to Luton, who didn't sound that busy, they told us FIS was not available, and to freecall London Information. I think we said we would, and maintained a listening watch on Luton anyway, if I'm remembering correctly. It seemed to make sense, as we were only just outside their zone. I gather via the grapevine that this is fairly standard practice for them now. It is Luton this thread is referring to, isn't it?

[Gary Halliday]

No it wasn`t Luton. I`ve never had a bad experience with Luton ATC. Snot is a sort of anagram.

GH

[rockaria]

gary, i am guessing that you were on your way to the IoW going close to Southampton, which route were you taking? i am just curious cos whenever i head that way from london i speak to farnborough and they normally stay with me until i am very close to the coastline. From this position you know that you are clear of anyones airspace and i then dont need to bother Sotn. You also get a good idea as to where alot of other traffic is.

I will say now that Farnborough have always been excellent and will, when they are not exceptionally busy, always provide a radar service. Keep it up boys!

So maybe call farnborough in future as you do get a reasonable response from them.

[Wycombe]

Roackaria,

Yep, Farnborough are FAB (like their IATA designator!) and seem to provide a very high standard of FIS, always calling any conflicting they can see on their radar, even though they don't have to under FIS (this as well as vectoring their own inbounds/outbounds through very busy Class G).

Anybody else hear the recorded message on 134.3 over the weekend? Thought Brize LARS was H24?

Cheers,
EGTB

[samson.]

Just like to jump on that bandwagon as well... I was with Farnborough/Brize Radar over the weekend. Extremely efficient and also friendly. I seem to have far more luck with military controllers than civilian (particularly Solent App). The military boys and girls are particularly good at pre-empting you - eg you are cleared into the zone - despite not requesting it. Doing this saves on R/T chat, and it is comforting to know they are on the ball!

Samson

[AC-DC]

About 3 years ago on my back from Belgium to Cranfield I talked with Staplford. When passed over their zone (2400’) I called and said that I change to Luton. The young guy instructed me to call Stanstead so I replied that I call Luton. He became very aggressive and demanded me to call Stanstead. My wife could not believe that I remained calm. I told her that he might know something that I don’t and that there might be a good reason for this. Well…. there wasn’t. :rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

AC-DC

In which case the best answer is

"CLICK"

but you could have phoned later to ask what right he has to control aircraft outside his airspace.

:rolleyes:

ShyT

[Bright-Ling]

I think that this is sadly a LARS politics question.

The reason that you get/got a good service from Farnborough is because they are a CAA paid LARS unit. Extra controllers are paid to do the LARS task, and with the lack of CAS, it helps to have an almost known traffic enviroment for the inbounds. (BTW AC-DC, EGLF are purely CIVIL, and have been for decades! The airfield isn't even MOD(PE) anymore)

Me thinks that this particular unit is playing the political game. If the CAA won't pay for the LARS then they may have been towing a party line regarding giving a "free" service.

As an ATCO and someone who flies I can see the argument from both sides. I agree that the demise of LARS from airfields such as Luton is sad, but they now offer a bit of service (free!!).

As for Solent - trust me they are NOT interested in speaking to you UNLESS you wanna cross their airspace - which they will only grant if NOT busy. Think of their (UNPAID!) task, if every time someone flew to IOW or around it on a nice day!!! That is why Farnborough helps out towards the coast (esp as Dunsfold closed a long time ago).

I don't wish to labour the point but NATS especially are kinda reluctant to receive £50K or so to provide a LARS service and pay for a few extra controllers!

The new owners will, The Airline Group, I daresay be even less likely to cary the cost of services to aircraft outside CAS.

Wonder if this unit is run by SERCO per chance?!?!!?!?! Wattisham perhaps?!?!?

GOING BACK to the original point though - I am amazed at the attitude of the said ATCO. At the very least I would have phoned the unit or written a letter. Wonder if you could 1261 them!!!!??!?!?!?

[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: Bright-Ling ]

[Chilli Monster]

B-L

Cheap Shot! ;) Since when has Wattisham been in the south of England? I think you'll find the unit is a certain NATS (as of 2 years ago'ish) airfield with radar.

As Lloyd Grossman says "The clues are all there" :)

CM

[Bright-Ling]

C-M - wasn't meant to be a cheap shot!!

So - which unit is it!? Luton?! or Southampton!?!? They are the only two units that are new to NATS. Why would EGGW be working anything over the sea?! Again, Southampton are the most likely given what was said.

Go on then - name and shame the unit.

To re-emphasize what I tried to say - it is a sad indictment of the CAA today who are reducing the amount of LARS available as it simply costs lots of money, and they don't have the funds (despite all of our licence money!)

[ShyTorque]

I must put in a good word for the EGGW controllers at this point.

They have officially withdrawn their LARS but from my own very recent experience (including yesterday) they will still provide RIS or a FIS subject to their workload. We asked for a zone crossing and got a RIS from about 20 miles out, but shortly afterwards another aircraft passing close by to the CTA was declined an FIS. The ATCO was polite and simply said "due to controller workload". I don't see that as a problem. The other pilot went on his way reasonably happy, I think, as I would have done.

It's as much a matter of how it's done and a little politeness and understanding on both sides goes a long way. :)

ShyT

[IFollowRoads]

I will jump in here and offer some support for Soton, as I have always found them fair, and accomodating when it seems like they could be. If I'm battling trying to find a gap in the R/T to place a call, I can guess they're not going to be interested in a 'zone transit 2000' or above': consequently, when I was in the area on a route planned to avoid their area last weekend, and they seemed quiet, and I asked for an ILS - no problem they said, just make sure you call me to arrange payment.

Maybe 'cos I was born there thay understand me ;) but I have always found them (along with Gatwick, Farnborough, Exeter, Scottish... (sorry if I didn't mention your unit - you haven't had the pleasure of a lot of my company very often ;) ) particularly helpful) and as B-L points out, these things do have a cost, even if it's not immediately apparrent.

IFR

[Rattus]

Transitted the Snot International zone the other day on the way home from Dinard, routing MP-SAM-CPT. Having crossed the Channel at FL50 we were cleared through VFR at the same level as we didn't need to descend until Newbury. No hassle. However it was mid day, mid week, and apart from a bit of VFR traffic and a couple of mil helos it was quiet.
We gave BHX a wide berth though!
Rattus