CRM while getting Visual @ DH

[bucks_raj]

Scenario - Interview..... for P2 ILS CAT II/CAT I


As PNF you tell call out DH and Capt (says I know the place very well another 50 ft we'l break visual we'l go ahead and land) what wil be your response....

OPEN TO ALL......


Part II

What are the requirements... which when met we can say we are visual, is it just visual ques associated with runwa or ALS, or certain number of rowas of the ALS.....etc... what is it.

Who needs to be visual.... PF...PNF....or BOTH..... or PF is visual.... then PNF cross checks...

[rigpiggy]

Call MDA/DH, no contact x2, take control, if he will not relinquish. call ATC missed approach. ground the airplane at next stop, call the chief pilot, and follow up immediately with an email. When interviewed, respond they don't pay me to break regs, bend airplanes or die.

[Right Way Up]

And if they don't like that answer you really don't want to work for that company anyway!

[BOAC]

Part II - the answer is in EUOPS and 'normally' PNF will be acquiring any visual. Whether or not the 'decision' is taken by PF or PNF will be in the OPS Manual (normally PNF) and 'normally' an element of trust exists in accepting the PNF's call. Also 'normally' there is a quick squint by whoever is now PNF out of the window.:).

[Gulfstreamaviator]

In the absence of no call, the PF commences the miss.

or

The PNF calls NOTHING SEEN or perhaps NEGATIVE VISUAL

or if the PF is really clever

He will call visual, approach lights continue approach, or the PNF might actually see the reference and call continue.

Remember the call at decision height is the call that NO reference has been seen, and that the aircraft will continue to descend until the thrust applied takes over.

I understand that there is a new JAR (or whoever), on non precision approach, that the aircaft alt preset will be set at the MDA plus 50ft, to ensurew that the sircraft does not descend below the MDA, any input.?????

glf

[BOAC]

Remember the call at decision height is the call that NO reference has been seen, and that the aircraft will continue to descend until the thrust applied takes over.

I understand that there is a new JAR (or whoever), on non precision approach, that the aircaft alt preset will be set at the MDA plus 50ft, to ensurew that the sircraft does not descend below the MDA, any input.????? - now we are all confused..................

[IGh]

The Board included a paragraph on this topic, about PF's reaction to NFP's call at DH:
"It has been demonstrated that in order to abort successfully an approach to present Category I minimums, the aircraft must be at the proper speed, sink rate, and position and that the initiation of the go-around must be precisely at the Decision Height and not delayed past this height, for any reason. In order to accomplish this maneuver properly, crew coordination must be precise and almost automatic. There is not sufficient time for the captain to look for the runway after the first officer calls, "Minimums, runway not in sight." There must be sufficient understanding, coordination, and confidence between crewmembers that the pilot flying the aircraft reacts to the other pilot's calls in a manner much the same as if he himself is looking through the other's eyes." [AAR pg 27.]
NTSB, AAR70-02, JAL2 / 22Nov68, DC-8-61 JA8032

[NEWYEAR]

Hello partners.

I don´t know very well if you are in CAT I or II, your scenario is...¿?

ILS CAT I. The First officer is allowed to land
ILS CAT II. The First Officer may be allowed to land. In this case, the sector may have been done by the FO, but at 500 feet the controls may be transfered to the Captain for landing.

Who is the PF and the PNF? :rolleyes: I don´t know.

Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA) is very clear with the procedure.

CAT I. An approach may not be continued below the decision height, unless at least one of he following visual references is visible and identifiable to the pilot (spoken in singular:the pilot)
- Elements of the approach light system,
- The threshold
- The threshold markings
- The threshold lights
- The therehold identification lights
- The visual glide slope indicator
- The touchdown zone or the touchdown zone markings
- The touchdown zone lights
- Runway edge lights

CAT II. (...the same), unless visual reference containing a segment of at least 3 consecutive lights being:
- The centerline of the approach lights, or
- The touchdown zone lights, or
- The runway centerline lights, or
- The runway edge lights or,
- A combination of these is attained and can be maintained.

If you are the FO and the Captain continues below the DH CAT I or II , you have to say and act like this:

"My controls"
"Missed approach",
"Gear up" (when positive)
"Your radio"

ILS CAT III. First Officer is not allowed to land.

[adverse-bump]

...or

PNF says

GO AROUND!

Anyone with any sense will listen!

[rigpiggy]

I had an f/o during a pma call for a missed approach because he "couldn't see the runway" it was an rvr 1200 approach, and I did have the runway. He wasn't supposed to lookout but i digress. though I didn't agree I went missed, we shot another one and got in, we debriefed on ground I reiteratedt hat sop's required him to stay inside in the event of a missed approach.

At the end of the day, if either of you are uncomfortable go around.

[BOAC]

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EDIT: FOUND IT! 'Pilot' monitored as opposed to what? The dog?

[n1_spindown]

tell atc you can't see the runway and are going missed

[A37575]

If you are the FO and the Captain continues below the DH CAT I or II , you have to say and act like this:

"My controls"

What's this "My Controls" caper? If you are serious about taking over control from the captain then be prepared for a fight as no captain is going to meekly hand over full control of the aircraft for which he is entirely responsible by law.

The correct terminology should be concise and unambiguous such as "Captain, I have control". And you should expect his reply to be equally concise and unambiguous when he says "Go away .. First Officer" (or words to that effect. :ok:

[reivilo]

I'm a little confused, because what I've learned during my type qualification is a little different from what I read here;
When flying an ILS down to cat 1 minima in cat 1 conditions (or any non precision approach), isn't the PNF supposed to be looking outside for visual clues and when in sight he'll make the call; "runway/approach lights ahead", while the PF stays inside untill confirmation of visual reference? And if no call is made at the DH/MDA, the PF will initiate the missed approach.
The opposite is true during an autoland, where the PF will be mainly outside, looking for visual clues, and PNF is inside to monitor the autopilot's performance and make the callouts.

[rigpiggy]

Advisory Circulars - Advisory Circulars - Commercial and Business Aviation - Airlines and Aviation Operations - Air Transportation - Transport Canada (http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/standards/commerce-circulars-ac0239-1529.htm)

PILOT MONITORED APPROACH
During a PMA, the left seat pilot is normally both the PNF (or PM) and the PIC. The right seat pilot is normally both the PF and the SIC. The left seat pilot monitors the performance of the right seat pilot throughout the descent and approach phases of the flight. Once the left seat pilot has successfully transitioned to visual conditions for the landing, the left seat pilot takes control of the aeroplane from the right seat pilot for the landing, while the right seat pilot monitors the landing phase using the aeroplane instruments. The division of responsibilities described above can be reversed depending on crew qualifications and experience, and the instrumentation and control capabilities of the aircraft.
Proper use of the PMA permits the left seat pilot to improve the safety related to making the decision to transition from instrument conditions to visual conditions for the landing. During a PMA the left seat pilot has significantly more “heads-up” time for visual scanning outside the flight deck. This extra time permits the pilot conducting the landing to determine whether sufficient visual references exist to judge the position and rate of change of position of the aeroplane in order to decide to continue the approach visually to a safe landing. In addition, once the decision to continue visually has been made, the right seat pilot continues to monitor the aeroplane performance by remaining “heads down” on instruments

[Tee Emm]

..or

PNF says

GO AROUND!

Anyone with any sense will listen!

You obviously have not flown in Asia where loss of face has priority over commonsense...:ugh:

[Airbus_a321]

sorry,...but never heard such a rubbish "...set MDA +50..." :{

[kharmael]

The MDA+50 doohicky is what we call Continuous Descent Final Approach. On non-precision approaches it's designed to stop the pilots doing a dirty dive to MDA and trucking in at that alt causing all sorts of nuisance to the reisdents on the approach path.
It also allows the crew to maintain a stabilized approach in the landing configuration.

[40&80]

Post 15....Did the Canadians also publish the required pilots voice calls? or have they simply avoided this issue?

[Gulfstreamaviator]

This procedure is being taught at one of the leading SIM centers.
It does complicate the sim session, when doing the NPA CTL, if the mins are set at MDA, and you can not descend below MDA +50.

Make of it what you will.

Can not see how it makes the dirty dive less likely, but whatever. :{

Glf

[rigpiggy]

It is up to each company to make there appropriate SOP. TC would then sign off.

Initially it went along the lines of
PF/PNF
100 above/check 100 to go
minimums lights in sight continue or nothing seen go around
down to 100 AGL
runway in sight, I have control/ you have control I'm inside.

The F/O now PNF would make the appropriate Radalt call 50-10ft, and on rollout 60 kts. At this time he would look outside, and see just how cruddy it was.

[Spendid Cruiser]

This procedure is being taught at one of the leading SIM centers.
It does complicate the sim session, when doing the NPA CTL, if the mins are set at MDA, and you can not descend below MDA +50.

Make of it what you will.

Can not see how it makes the dirty dive less likely, but whatever.
I use this procedure all the time. Minima is set to MDA+50. All the calls are relative to MDA+50. In otherwords as far as the crew is concerned, the MDA is the chart MDA+50. Not complicated and I have never seen any issues with the concept.

The reason for the +50 isn't stop dirty dives, but to help ensure that a CDA heavy aircraft doesn't sink below MDA during a go-around due to the inertia of the constant descent at 700fpm. Something that wouldn't happen if you were level at MDA when reaching the MAPt. We don't add 50' to the minima for a circling approach for the same reason as it is permitted (i.e. assumed) that one will be straight level prior to the MAPt.

[kharmael]

I forgot to mention that the MDA+50 rule effectively turns "MDA+50" into a DA. Therefore the notional 3 degree GP becomes necessary. Otherwise you'd end up going around 8 miles from the threshold! :}