Clearance - Controlled air space?

[Fuji Abound]

I always used to reckon the class D Controllers preferred to keep us lot out – particularly from the busier control zones. This was largely a perceived impression. My experience, although not wide, is different. Solent is excellent and so is Gatwick. Luton are also very cooperative and even Stansted do their very best? I wonder on others experience, particularly of zones not mentioned. Also what specific problems have people encountered “negotiating” that zone clearance that may save 20 or so minutes of flight time?

[Flybywyre]

My vote for the most helpful zone goes without any hesitation to "Solent".
They are closely followed by Heathrow Radar on 119.9 for SVFR across LHR.
Both these units have always offered a great service, sometimes under difficult conditions such as busy Sunday's when everyman and his dog seems to be flying, including some newer PPL's who are still getting to grips with RT proceedure.

At the other end of the scale I think Jersey could certainly learn a thing or two from the above units.

[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: Flybywyre ]

[Genghis the Engineer]

I agree about Solent, without doubt the most helpful controllers in the South of England. Last year I'd carefully planned a route around their zone, and was actually offered a crossing clearance I'd not asked for - now there's service!

But, I've never yet been refused a crossing clearance from anybody, asked to change height or route a bit occasionally, but I can't say I've ever failed to get what I ask for. Having said that, without a doubt, some controllers are more helpful than others. My normal whinges are about the level of RIS I get, which is very variable (and again, Solent is without a doubt the best).

G

[twistedenginestarter]

Birmingham refused me a little while back but it was the tea time rush hour and I could see there was a lot of activity where I would have been going.

[David Clarkson]

Thames radar is great,although i would use 132.7 to call them? Manchester is THE worst!Even if you call them 20 miles out and are perfectly placed to fly at 90 deg to the upwind end of THEIR(they certainly think it is their's)runway,you allways get told to use the low level corridor to Barton,thereby using up another 15 minutes of valuable air time! Generally speaking though i find most radar stations are as helpfull as their workload will allow.
Safe Flying and allways allow for the long route so the clearance will be a nice surprise.

[2Donkeys]

Thames Radar is only on 132.7. 119.9 is Heathrow Special (VFR) and would normally be used for low-level SVFR transits on Western routes like the famous Ascot-Burnham corridor.

In reality Thames and Heathrow sit next to one another at the bottom of Heathrow's Control tower.

Certain of Thames Radar's controllers are also of the view that since they are not a LARS unit, they should not provide services to aircraft outside controlled airspace. For them this means that their priorities are Biggin Hill IFR in and out-bounds and City Airport traffic.

[squibbler]

Any time you lot come oop north and are thinking of calling EGCC to transit their airspace try EGGP instead.

We're well known for our flexibility, if you don't fancy the corridor try us and you'll probably be glad you did.

;)

[18greens]

Blimey, which Solent do you talk to? For some reason I have always found Solent difficult and well worth avoiding. They are usually so busy you can't get calls in and trying to get away from them as you route into Farnborough airspace usually involves orbiting over New Arelsford. The last crossing I asked for was Thruxton to Portsmouth at 3000' on a quiet evening and this was flatly refused. How do you do it?

I totally agree the rest Luton, Stanstead LHR etc are all superb. I also find Brize, Lyneham, Boscombe and especially Farnborough offer a very professional no hassle service. Solent is the only place I have trouble with, what am I doing wrong?

[bcfc]

On my QxC, Bournemouth couldn't have been more helpful. (especially the foxxy lass :D )

[Genghis the Engineer]

No idea 18greens, I've had all sorts of problems with BDN. Maybe it's our accents?

G

[jayemm]

Luton were great for me; they spotted that I was routing around them from Duxford to Blackbushe, and invited me to track through their airspace! Farnborough must be one of the busiest and are usually excellent; they've been running a survey recently on the quality of their services, so you get the impression that they care what we think.

With Solent it seems to depend on who's on duty...it varies from excellent to 'not very tolerant' in my experience.

Bristol always seem to be friendly, very clear (the most important attribute for me) and sometimes humorous (a particular lady controller makes me want to go back to Bristol just to hear her dulcit tones).

So far, I've never been refused clearance, but I guess there's always a first time.....

[Three Wheeler]

2Donkeys said "Certain of Thames Radar's controllers are also of the view that since they are not a LARS unit, they should not provide services to aircraft outside controlled airspace. For them this means that their priorities are Biggin Hill IFR in and out-bounds and City Airport traffic."

Have to agree with that, and further, those 'certain' controllers appear not to want to issue city zone crossing clearances to light aircraft in general, regardless of work load. The last time I requested a city zone crossing, there was one Bae 146 flying circuits, I was told to remain clear. I routed round to the East and was north of Biggin Hill before the 146 had even closed the localiser...hardly a conflict. However the rest of the Thames controllers are excellent, if the WX is getting bad the service the service given increases in proportion

[DOC.400]

On an around London trip -OCK-BIG-LAM-BNN, a Thames controller OFFERED me direct track to LAM when ten miles short of BIG. Quick line on the map showed it went across the Isle of Dogs i.e. vis with Canary Wharf, LCY, the Dome, Tower Bridge etc.-what a nice chap!! And belated thanx if u r reading this!!

Solent...hmmm...it's all attitude. It seems that any hesitation and you're asked to remain clear of controlled airspace!! However, I've found them always helpful and on a wx diversion to Southampton was offered, yes OFFERED an SRA to 1/4 mile Certainly didn't turn that one down!!

[Aussie Andy]

DOC.400 - hope that was in a twin, lest thou transgress the "glide clear" rules! An instructor at our place was telling me about a fella in a Warrior was delighted with a similar clearance and merrily hopped across the zone... he fell into the trap!

Andy

[FlyingForFun]

Out of interest, what do you guys think re. safety of crossing the city zone - requirement to be able to land clear? I've never flown out that way yet, but looking at the chart I wasn't sure that I'd want to, especially since I don't know whether some controller is going to ask me to stay low....

And, on a similar but not-quite-related note, I seem to recall seeing something about published SVFR routes in the Heathrow area, but can't for the life of remember where - did I imagine it?

Still got loads to learn.... :eek:

FFF
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[Aussie Andy]

FFF: The "Glide Clear" requirement is your responsibility (i.e. the pilot's) and you must adhere to this regardless of ATC clearances. If given a clearance which if followed means you could not comply with your license or the rules of the air, you should say "Unable"...

I believe the SVFR routes are shown on the 1/4 mill. map and are for helicopters.

Andy :)

[FNG]

Footling about in or near the City Zone in a single was discussed on a couple of threads about a month or so ago, with a rough consensus emerging that a floatplane would come in handy, as a splashdown in the Lee Valley Lakes could be the the best option. I don't think I'd fancy it, as it seems to me bad enough flying the east-west between Elstree and North Weald/Stapleford, especially at the Rule 5 notified bit where you have to duck down under the lowest bit of the Stansted CTA. Lots of houses, some quite dense woods, a few dodgy looking fields. A bit more open to the north of the M25, but then you'll bump into someone looking for BPK, or get biffed by the mad farmer who aerobats his Yak around there (seem him twice, more worried about the times I haven't seen him), so you can't win, really.

[FlyingForFun]

Andy, I know that gliding clear is my responsibility, and I don't expect ATC to look after me. I was worried, however, that ATC want me below, say, 1500', but I need to be above, say, 2000' to be able to land clear. Sure, I can tell ATC "unable", but then what? Would they clear me into the path of a Bizjet climbing out of City Airport? Unlikely. Would they tell me to get out of their zone if I can't use 1500'? Probably more likely, but I don't know.

As for the SVFR routes, I know about the heli routes, but I thought I saw some fixed-wing routes too - I must have imagined it. Thanks for the info.

FNG - that's pretty much what I thought re. City transits. But there are obviously people out there who do it...

FFF
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PS - FNG, were we going to meet up this weekend? I know we were talking about it, but can't remember any definite arrangement. E-mail me...

[Warped Factor]

FFF,

As mentioned, ATC will offer a clearance and it is down to you whether you accept or not, for whatever reason.

If you think you are unable to accept a clearance then do say so to ATC, briefly explaining why.

I'm sure most units will then do their best to modify said clearance to something more suitable within any operation/separation constraints.

There are no official SVFR fixed wing routes in the London Zone, but a few well used unnofficial ones such as Ascot - Burnham on the western side.

WF.

[Jay Doubleyou]

I'm interested to know what Jersey has done to upset Flybywire. It's my home base and I feel a little alien away from its protective embrace!

[kala87]

I've always found Solent helpful although if they're busy with IFR traffic they may take their time getting back to you with a clearance, which means orbiting outside the zone boundary. Keep scanning outside the cockpit (well, you do anyway, I'm sure) as on occasions everyone seems to be making for the SAM VOR at the same time, and if their altitude holding is a bit off, and yours is as well... For this reason, I like to fly an offset from SAM VOR and not route overhead.

[Flybywyre]

Hello Jay Doubleyou.....................

Actualy Jersey haven't upset me in the slightest, but I may have been lucky as I have heard some very curt remarks made to other pilots. Lets face it a place like Jersey is going to attract a few first timers flying in during the summer, the controllers have a pretty good idea of what to expect when they ask for, and get the 50N estimate. You just have to accept that some pilots are going to be a little less experienced, which is no reason to give them a hard time. Trouble is it is usualy just one unhelpful grumpy ATCO who gives the unit a bad reputation, in general most ATCO's, at all units, are friendly and helpful..........which is nice :)

[Vortex what...ouch!]

The only one I have ever had problems with is Luton. A few times they have been a bit misserable and only when I pushed them did they finally clear me through. Bristol are good. Whoever said it is right about the female controller there. To meet her would just spoil the picture I have in my mind of what she looks like. ;)

Doc,
I flew a similar route over London from Coventry to Redhill in a R44. Very nice views if the weather is right.
:)

Flying forum,
Possibly you are thinking of the London heli routes?

[FNG]

Hey Fooj, are you by any chance hanging out at the moment with a certain dodgily-quiffed lawyer sometimes referred to as Bob Fabulous? If so, come upstairs and I'll show you a picture of me aeroplane.

[SKYYACHT]

Solent are excellent......Well done folks.

Tailwinds :rolleyes: