Spin training in most school is rubbish [Archive]

M14P

29th Aug 2001, 02:44

What you have here is a vicious circle (no pun intended):

Folks learn to fly and are scared stiff of stalling by bar stories and badly demonstrated stall lessons. Spinning is then the subject of even more scary stories and is therefore either not covered or poorly taught including horribly alarming flick entry spins.

These folks become instructors and perpetuate the myths and apprehensions.

In summary, it is partially caused by poor instrucional technique and partially by poor spinning qualities of training aircraft which require a rather uncomfortable flick entry to actually enter a spin.

Really and truely, however, a good lengthy set of stalling sessions (preferrably with the stall warning CB pulled if possible) will do much to improve student confidence and knowledge of stalling.

Students are made victims of the 'recover at the first symptom' approach to stalling. First we should teach all about stalling, then we should teach minimum height loss etc.

Trefdraeth

29th Aug 2001, 02:57

Oh dear!
If u stall, u might spin, witness the classic 300 Ft stall, spin scenario. Of course, u ought to learn to recover from, but if u have to, you ought not be there in the first place. Still, we've all messed up. So perhaps WWW is right.
:eek:

TheSilverFox

29th Aug 2001, 03:11

A question often asked at the interview for application to teach the FI rating:-

"Should fully developed spin recovery be a mandatory element of the PPL syllabus (and give your reasons)"?

I have my own opinion, but would be interested in reading yours!

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: TheSilverFox ]

Trefdraeth

29th Aug 2001, 03:14

Damn right it ought.

TheSilverFox

29th Aug 2001, 03:18

Trefdraeth,

Sorry, not good enough - reasons please!

Trefdraeth

29th Aug 2001, 03:37

Because, no matter what, the ability of the human being to get himself into a bad situation is (or ought to be, legendary). Take the automobile, if Jo Bloggs were taught to control a car at high (Motorway) speed, or in an emergency braking (once every 4.5 months on average). The Jo bloggs would be less of an accident statistic. Flying is in short dangerous. We MUST take every oportunity to cover EVERY eventuality that may occur in the air. It's no good saying that if you don't this, X will happen, here's how to deal with X. When if you DON'T do this,then Y will happen, Y is very bad, soooooo bad in fact we daren't teach yo how to deal with it' because it's tooo dangerous.

Good enough???

TheSilverFox

29th Aug 2001, 03:45

Trefdraeth,

It's a valid opinion, however if the reasoning is sound, why do you think that it is not a compulsary element?

Trefdraeth

29th Aug 2001, 03:51

Silver fox, WWW

I defer to your greater knowlege. However I do feel that in the great AOPA, JAA and other Verbose bods discussion of the syllabus, certain short cuts were made to make the whoile thing 'affordable'. Now if affordable means dangerous, then I'm a monkey. As the great man (My PPL examiner) said, this is a licence to LEARN to fly, not a licence to FLY.

;)

TheSilverFox

29th Aug 2001, 04:01

Trefdraeth,

Youve done your bit!
Time for somebody else to make a contribution(perhaps WWW).

Having said that, it is almost 01:00, perhaps everyone has gone to bed. Thats where I'm off to now. I've got to do somebodys skill test first thing in the morning and I dont want to be a grumpy old bu**er due to lack of sleep!

See you in gourmet restaurant perhaps!!

A and C

29th Aug 2001, 10:02

First thanks to WWW for setting this one running.

I try not to let eny of my students get to the PPL skill test without at least one session of recovery from fully developed spins but if they dont want to spin i cant make them as it is not a requirement of the PPL.

If you catch the student at soon after they start the PPL training then the chances are that they will not have had time to take in all the bar room spinning rubbish.

As to not using rudder when stalling what rubbish , Yaw + stall= spin so to not keep the ball in the center with your feet is inviting a spin when during stall recovery when yaw is introduced in the form of power applied befor the stall has been broken (yes i have had a student do it to me !)

Taking spinning out of the PPL training has left us with instructors who dont spin very often and dont feel comfortable with spinning as a result dont want to teach it.

The removal of spinning from the PPL in my opinion has left us with a growing number of pilots who regard eny more that 60 degrees of bank as aerobatics and whos flying skills outside of a very small flight envolope are poor this leads on to the discusion in another pprune forum about the lack of flying skills of the modern airline pilot when faced with an emergency but i sujest that we do not open that can of worms here.

ianbishop

29th Aug 2001, 11:05

The first 25 hrs of my PPL training was in Canada, where (ISTR) 3 hrs of full stall / spin training is mandatory pre-first solo. I approached my first spin (in a C172, which requires a bit of effort to spin) with some trepidation, but after a few of them, quite enjoyed them (but I had been in ATC doing back seat Chippy / Bulldog aeros for 20 yrs). After a while, I was recovering on specific headings after a specified number of turns - good way of taking your mind off the discomfort of the spin!

This training has possibly saved my life once; when back in UK, most of my PPL training was in PA28 / C152. The last 2 hrs of my PPL training was just to build solo time (I'd done everything else) and I was sent up just to make up the 10 hrs. I decided to practice stalls in various configs as I'd not done them in a C152. Luckily, I was at 5000 ft - the last stall I tried was cruise power and the left wing dropped like a stone straight into fully developed spin. I just reccovered the way I had with all other spins before (replaying instructors words in my head to close throttle, wait, opposite rudder, wait, etc). The a/c may have self-recovered, but at least I was able to remain calm and think logically.

Bring back spin training, I say; there may, however, be PPL candidates who are not comfortable with spinning - possibly make these candidates restricted to NPPL only or make it mandatory pre-IMC / Night training.

A7E Driver

29th Aug 2001, 11:16

In the US, spin training used to be part of the PPL syllabus, but there were more accidents during the training than in real life --- so a change in philosophy to "stall avoidance" was controversially implemented.

You may find it interesting that in my training as a military fighter pilot, I only had one flight of spin training. (Jet engines don't like the prolonged lack of air flow that comes from spins -- and some jets easily enter flat spins which are generally bad news.) We probably did one spin flight in primary training (prop aircraft) but I think most of the training focussed on slow flight and acro training rather than spins.

In the fleet as a fighter pilot, we had strict rules about no slow speed (<300 kts) "dog fights" below 10,000 feet, and we briefed spin recovery procedures at every ACM (dog fighting) brief. I never did spin a fighter, but I did have several high speed departures (a "wooferdill" at 450 kts from pulling too many g's - very high AOA at high speed). The aircraft recovers by itself almost instantly after swapping ends once or twice).

As for GA, I guess I side with the school that says focus on stall avoidance/stall recovery rather than spins. Spin training should only be taken on as a fun acro-related activity --- and not a formal part of basic training. Again, the trainng accident rate made the cure worse than the disease. My two cents anyway ....

Wee Weasley Welshman

29th Aug 2001, 11:22

Well I was obviously playing late night devils advocate with this thread :)

I base my opinion on what I have seen and heard over the years in a variety of flying school and clubs around the country.

I have found on more than one occassion that a student believed that he should be very careful with the rudder during stalling as their instructor had told them thats how they enter a spin. Such crass carry over from pro-spin entry into a PPL holders thinking is embarassing. The concept of adverse yaw from the ailerons is quite frequently 'forgotten' somewhere. Pretty fundamental stuff.

As for the syllabus. As I understand it in the good old days when spinnning was still in you had the following situation (illustrative numbers only):

11 people killed in spin accidents per year, 8 during some form of training.

Spinning removed from general syllabus...

5 people a year killed in spin accidents.

What has been achieved is fewer spin related accidents BUT an increase in spin accidents during which the pilot may have had no effective training in how to recover.

Its very much a baby and bathwater conundrum.

I admit I've not dug into the stats to check this theory but it has been received wisdom from several different sources over the years.

My view is that its OK to leave spinning out of the syllabus AS LONG AS the spin entry recognition and recovery is taught effectively and the FULL implications of adverse yaw/use of rudder are covered in ever lasting detail in the classroom.

By preference for myself I would like spinning to become mandatory because I enjoy the discipline the exercise imposes.

I also think its a good idea that you *teach* some of the manouveres that PPL's will generally try within their 1st 100hrs with passengers on board, e.g. chandelles, wing overs.

Cheers,

WWW

Evo7

29th Aug 2001, 11:34

From a pre-solo PPL's point of view, I'm going to go spinning at some point, but not yet. Already done stalls, stalls+wing drop etc. (but in a Warrior, so WWW will say that doesn't count ;) ), but there's other stuff I'd rather be doing right now. However I feel it's something I should experience, just in case. My plan is to take a half dozen lessons post solo in a Tomahawk to brush up on any bad habits that the Warrior is giving me, and finish that off with stalls and spins.

Main worry about spinning is that I'll hold on to my lunch... :rolleyes: :eek: :(

FlyingForFun

29th Aug 2001, 12:25

Of course spinning should be included in PPL training! :D :D :D

Oh, you want a reason? Well, it's fun! What more reason do you need? I was also fortunate enough to have an instructor who agreed with me. You could often see a little sparkle in my instructors eyes whenever you talked about flying. When I mentioned that I wanted spin-training, though, his eyes lit up.

I know you can't spin Warriors, but I didn't realise you could spin Cherokees - and the club had two of them at the time. I told my instructor I was going to go somewhere else to get some spin training. He practically begged me not to, that he'd take me spinning in a Cherokee.

We'd had a long period of poor weather, with ceiling around 1500' every weekend. That was fine by me, because I was doing circuit training at the time, and the ceiling was more than high enough to fly circuits. Then, one weekend, the weather was absolutely perfect, but I'd forgotten all about spinning. I turned up at the airfield, and noticed that I'd been put into a different aircraft to the one I'd booked the previous week. Hmm - strange. Then my instructor walked in, with a huge grin on his face - "FFF, d'you fancy spinning today?" Of course I do! Now it made sense - the aircraft they'd put me in was a Cherokee!

Instructor demonstrated the first spin - it was pretty scary. Then he had me do one. I had a vague idea what to expect now, but bottled it and didn't pull the yoke back far enough. It did something almost like a spin, but not quite. The next one was fine, except that I pulled out of it before it really got started. Then the instructor had me hold it in the spin for a couple of turns (actually counted turns, and was amazed that what seemed like about 10 or 12 was only two!) before recovery. Now it started to become fun! By the end of the session, I was really enjoying myself, and wanted a bigger engine so that I could spend less time climbing and more time spinning!

I think that, despite reading all the theory, if I ever found myself in an inadvertent spin (very unlikely in PA28s, I know - those things barely stall!) without the training, I'd have frozen.

I've read the arguments about more accidents in spin training than real inadvertant spin accidents, but I'm not convinced. I'm ready to be corrected by someone with some real acro experience, but as far as I can see, if you're in a properly-loaded aircraft which is cleared for spinning, the only way you can have an accident is by not having enough height at the start of the excercise. And any instructor who spins without enough height to recover from the student's botched recovery (or tries to spin an improperly loaded aircraft, or tries to spin something which isn't designed to spin) should not be a pilot, let alone an instructor.

The only reason I can see for making spin training non-compulsary is that it was scaring prospective pilots off. Well, sorry, but that doesn't wash with me. Ok, so I really enjoyed spinning, but I can see that other people don't. But scary things can happen in an aircraft. Maybe not even your fault. If you can't keep your cool with an instructor next to you doing spin recoveries, how are you going to keep your cool with no instructor, no training, and probably less height than you'd like, when it really matters? You might not enjoy, but if you can't handle it, maybe you should stick to a bicycle, for your own safety?

Just my 2p from a low-time PPL.

FFF
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Southern Cross

29th Aug 2001, 12:33

Spin training is also not mandatory in New Zealand, although stalling a Tomahawk with power on and flaps out (as I recall) can produce a fairly sporting wing drop...the worst of which I encountered in my GFT-equivalent with the CFI.

I would have thought that anyone that has trained in Tomahawk may have a greater appreciation (than a student on say a 152) of the correct spin recovery inputs even if he / she has not spun, since they are likely to have encountered similarly pronounced wing drops in certain configurations.

But that is certainly no substitute for proper spin training. In my case, I then managed to get through several years of GA flying without even having spun. Predictably perhaps, this lead to the spin becoming a bit of a mental block.

So when I first spun in a Yak 52 6 years after gaining my PPL (with Russian instructor in tow I might add), it was pretty exciting. It did make me wonder why it was not part of the syllabus for the PPL. So for what it is worth, my vote is for spin training to be included as part of PPL training. But not just an hour - several hours. Why? Because a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Perhaps this will increase the number of hours that a PPL will take - not a politically correct suggestion in the current era where the NPPL is suggested as a qualification that will take fewer hours than a "normal" PPL.

However my view is that in any event, the best time to take further instruction is immediately after gaining your PPL. Perhaps an IMC rating, perhaps a few flights with a safety pilot eg a Cross Channel check out etc etc.

So really why not add a few hours of valuable training to the PPL and extend, rather than reduce, the syllabus. Surely the incremental cost is insignificant, if additional training does in fact reduce the number of deaths of injuries from accidents resulting from faiing to recover from a flight condition that the new PPL-holder has never experienced?

foxmoth

29th Aug 2001, 13:40

Personally I don't think it should be compulsory as there are some people who REALLY do not like these sort of manouvers, however it (AND aero's) SHOULD be strongly encouraged, especially foranyone who is intending ANY sort of career in aviation.
Spin trainig should be done in a suitable aircraft, teaching in C150's and most Cherokees tends to be rushed because the spin will often degrade into a spiral dive and so is not really good spin training, IMHO the best aircraft is the Chippie or the DH82a - also the Tomahawk spins well, but DON'T look back at the tail while you are doing so!

A7E Driver

29th Aug 2001, 14:56

I think you may have missed the point Southern Cross. Unfortunately, spin training acutally increased the number of accidents. I think Moth has a better idea --- for those really interested, create a syllabus POST PPL for a spin check-out. The "weakness" in the training system today is not the absence of spin training, but rather, not enough emphasis on handling the aircraft in slow flight conditions (using rudders only, etc.), recognising the approach to stall, and practicing the recovery from incipient stall. There is no need to risk life, limb and aircraft by practicing spins (other than as a part of an aerobatics course). My opinion anyway ...

hugh flung_dung

29th Aug 2001, 15:14

The quality of SSAT is bound to vary, just like other aspects of training. Instructors (like every other profession) come in all varieties from excellent to less than excellent, even the good ones aren't good at everything on every trip of every day. Training aeroplane types are not all equally good at demonstrating the different aspects of flight, I seem to recall that part of the reason that spinning was removed was because not all "modern" training aircraft were cleared for deliberate spins.

Although I don't do very much basic PPL training (mostly aeros, multi, IMC or tailwheel) I always try to encourage PPL studes to do at least one spin trip. All aircraft are capable of spinning if encouraged in the right way, IMHO the chances of a PPL recovering by themselves if they have never seen a spin before are nil - their only hope is if the acft spirals out of it.
This is not to say that spinning is dangerous, simply that it can be a little overwhelming the first time you experience it - after a few they become fun.

So my vote is firmly in the "it should be part of the syllabus" lobby, if some FIs are uncomfortable with this they should receive additional training. I also think that some aeros experience should be mandatory for all FIs and that the sky should always be blue and that Melinda Messenger and Angelina Jolie should take a personal interest in slightly older FIs and that..... but the realities of life will prevent many of these wishes coming true. :(

So, if you're at all worried about stalling or spinning the advice is to find an experienced sympathetic instructor with a suitable aircraft (Tomahawk, Bulldog, T67, Citabria, or something more exotic) and treat yourself to a session of spinning. It will make you a safer and more competent pilot. If you fly something that will spin inverted or flat (Yak comes to mind) then find an aeros instructor and go and explore this part of the envelope in safety before it sneaks out from a dark corner when you're not expecting it.

Here endeth the sermon.

Fuji Abound

29th Aug 2001, 15:15

Why are the stats so poor? There would seem to be only two possible explanations. Either instructors in general are poorly trained to teach spin recovery, or the aircraft are inadequately maintained. I guess there is also some sort of middle ground in that the wrong aircraft types are used, but this must ultimately come back to the instructors who are willing to teach in this type of aircraft.

My own experience, and probably because it has been out of the syllabus for so long, is that there are not that many instructors comfortable with spinning themselves, let alone prepared to sort the student out when he freezes on the yoke / stick.

One arguement is that the student will benefit just from experiencing a fully developed spin. There may be some truth in this, and perhaps it should be a requirement that students have a spin demonstrated to them. Maybe instructors would be happy with this, and maybe the benefits would be greater than the risks.

Spin training, as with aero training, is a whole different ball game. The instructor needs to be comfortable with allowing the student to see the spin fully developed, and repeating the exercise sufficiently so that the student is comfortable with the recovery. Argueably an accidental spin is most likely to develop from an unusual attitude, so the instructor may want to go an address this issue. Seems to be that is a lot with which to deal. Would the instructors be comfortable with it, is there time in the training to deal with it properly, and are the aircraft available for spin training?

Acker Demick

29th Aug 2001, 17:01

I expect (hope!) that most will agree that PPLs should continue to practice their "upper air" skills after they qualify, but my impression is that a large proportion do not. Why? -- well, what is the worst that can happen if you practice stalls, slow flight etc. solo? - answer: you might spin. If I had not had the benefit of spin training when I did my PPL, I would be very wary of solo practice of upper air exercises because I might get into a dangerous manoeuvre that I had no first-hand experience of, and that could conceivably kill me.

In the UK, loss of control accidents now rival CFIT as the biggest killer of GA pilots. A pilot who regularly practices upper-air stuff is unlikely to become a loss-of-control statistic. If every PPL had training in spin recovery, far more weekend pilots would have the confidence to work at their handling skills, and would be safer pilots as a result.

Lets make spinning compulsory again in the PPL!

AD

Rallye Driver

29th Aug 2001, 17:38

I agree that PPLs shown have some spin training. I know a lot of PPLs that went on to do an IMC rating very soon after getting their licences but are now reluctant to use those skills because they don't feel comfortable being in that situation - where a loss of concentration could easily lead to a spin or spiral dive.

I decided that it would make more sense for me to do some aerobatic training first, which is why I'm working my way through a type conversion onto the Yak 52. This includes basic aeros and what to do if they go wrong and you end up in an unusual attitude.

So far I've done two sessions of spins and one comprehensive session of stalls and dynamic stalls. The Yak drops a wing, and the full stall on a left turn in approach configuration is particularly spectacular as the torque tends to roll you inverted.

I enjoyed doing the spins and have more to do (inverted and flat). But it is a whole different ball game in an aircraft which is designed for such manouevres, from one which is "semi aerobatic". I know someone who was demonstrated a power-on spin in an Aerobat by an examiner a couple of weeks ago. They started at over four thousand feet and the aircraft finally snapped out of it at about 800! Not a fun scenario.

We all have to do a two yearly check with an instructor. I know a lot of people whinge about this, but surely that is precisely the time to get a bit of practice in things that have been neglected or never done at all. Spinning could be one of them.

RD

stiknruda

29th Aug 2001, 19:14

As a PPL I spin regularly, I enjoy it, it gives me a buzz - I believe that it makes me more proficient in aircraft control.

I don't believe that it should be compulsory for PPL training but it should be so for higher ratings and should be strongly encouraged for PPL students and holders (insurance incentives, etc).

My early experiences of spinning in a C150 were not even remotely enjoyable and I was frightened. I spent some time with a qualified chap in an aerobatically competent aeroplane and it was a whole different experience.

In my aircraft, I have "experimented" with in-spin aileron, out-spin aileron and differing power settings but only at great height (the firmament!)and only after self briefing myself on exactly what the sortie will include with recovery heights and that magic decision height about leaving the aircraft.

I enjoy it enormously, I take it more seriously than almost anything else in aviation but I wouldn't force anyone to do it. I no longer spin inverted for fun as I just do not enjoy it as much as the right way up.

I do believe aerobatics makes me a better pilot purely in terms of aircraft handling.

If in doubt find a sympathetic instructor with an aeroplane designed for aerobatics and go out and play. :D

Stik

Vedeneyev

29th Aug 2001, 19:36

Static Discharge, it may be true that the total number of spin accidents was higher with spin training included in the syllabus, but I don't believe phrases like:

"There is no need to risk life, limb and aircraft by practicing spins"

help the situation. With all respect to your superlative flying experience, I'm sure you'll agree with me that spinning an aircraft is not risking life and limb - it's a maneouvre in which the pilot is in complete control of the aircraft at all times.

I put it to you that if simulated engine failures were removed from training there would be fewer accidents during training due to carb icing, poor student judgement, poor instructor awareness, increased probability of mechanical failure etc... But no one would suggest removing that essential training from the syllabus.

I don't live in fear of my engine quitting every time I go up as I feel conident I'd know how to deal with it through my regular practice. Unfortunately I believe a lot of pilots live in fear of spins through their own lack of confidence in knowing what will happen and what they should do about it.

You would have to be flying a pretty funky aircraft to get into an unrecoverable spin. Most training aircraft are by no means funky. I hypothesise that the increased accident rate during spin training is due to poor instructors failing to take the appropriate action during a student's botched recovery, or allowing insufficient height for such an occasion.

Getting to a situation in normal flight past the sloppy controls, past the light buffet, past the heavy buffet, and most probably past the stall warner, then grossly mishandling the aircraft in the recovery is a remote possibility, but so is an engine out and how much weighting is there on that in any training syllabus?

I also believe spin training greatly hones handling skills, airmanship and confidence.

And those are my reasons why spin training should be included in the syllabus for what it's worth. (And SD, i didn't mean to single you out - apologies - just your comment encompassed a real problem that exists withing the flying community)

samson.

29th Aug 2001, 19:43

My personal view is that you only really have a feel for an aircraft when you have flown it at the edge of its envelope. For example, you only know how hard you can turn by having previously carried out a max rate turn, and noticed the point at which the aircraft starts to stall. Aerobatics are another example. It is easy to overcook say, a loop by pulling too hard and g-stalling, but if you have practiced, you can pull just hard enough to get the most out of the aircraft, but not stall.

I feel the same way about spinning. I learnt to fly with the military, and certainly in their basic training, currency for spinning is one month - you must spin every month to be allowed to do aeros solo. This approach means that spinning and spin recovery becomes a non-event, and as my instructor said a 'drill, not a skill' - i.e. it should be second nature, and not require thought. Regular spinning like this means that you are far more likely to recognise the spin before it becomes fully developed, and be able to recover more quickly. I have only been in an unintentional spin once solo, and I had recovered it before I had really thought about what had happened. There was no question of freezing on the controls - not a reflection of my brilliance, but more of my training. This is how it should be.

For spinning to be painless, and not too scarey, it should be carried out to a formula - above a certain height, for at least 2 or three turns, with full pro spin controls (any less than that and you may go high-rotational, which is not fun). The spin and incipient spin should be practiced separately - ie. recover at first sign of autorotation, for the incipient, and allow 3 turns for the full.

It is a shame that spinning is so legendary, and is the subject of so many bar stories. It really isn't that bad, provided you know what to do. I think any serious pilot ought to go on a couple of spinning and aeros trips in an aerobatic aircraft, with an aerobatic instructor, so that they can easily recognise a spin, and then recover automatically. While not everybody would choose to go spinning every day for the fun of it (I certainly wouldn't), I think pilots should have an appreciation of how to deal with them.

Samson

Whirlybird

30th Aug 2001, 01:58

Someone (can't remember who) suggested doing spins as part of the biannual check. Well, I wanted to do this during mine a couple of weeks ago. But before we could do it "officially", the aircraft (a C152) tried to spin during a stall. The instructor recovered it before it was fully developed, but I was already feeling quite ill, and we had to abandon any more attempts at anything like that. I'd still like to do it. I'm not scared of it, so don't tell me the feeling sick is due to nerves; it isn't. But I don't see how I'll ever manage a long enough session to learn anything. Maybe I should stick to helicopters, but since I want to keep my PPL(A) too, I agree that learning spin recovery would be a good idea, in theory. But in practice, how am I going to manage it? Any suggestions?

Skylark4

30th Aug 2001, 02:59

Glider Pilots are still taught spinning but the we spend a lot of time in rough air, circling, at high angles of bank and low speed. Asking for trouble isn`t it?

Most training gliders are not that easy to spin, they tend to require a bootful of rudder input just at the point of stall and this is not the way anyone is going to get into an inadvertent spin. Try to get your aircraft to spin by circling whilst going slower and slower until something happens. Unless your aircraft has some very unpleasant characteristics, it is surprisingly difficult to make it spin.

I have heard that the `usual` way to get your aircraft to spin in on the approach is to cross the controls trying to see if there are other aircraft trying for your bit of air hidden under your outside wing. Haven`t got around to trying that one at height yet.

Not showing a student what a spin looks like from the inside at the very least is sheer stupidity. If spin training is not included in the PPL syllabus then the first spin the student sees will probably kill him unless he is high enough for the aircraft to sort itself out as most will do if left alone but will he leave it alone? Spins Must be taught.

Mike W

GayTangle

30th Aug 2001, 13:48

When I did my PPL in the UK in 1982 Spin training was mandatory (but not tested on the GFT, istr). So I did spinning right after first solo, within 10 hours of my first lesson. I'm still scared to do them, and in fact haven't for years (I do stall practices approx every 10 flying hours/calendar month though).
I think, objectively, the initial problem was two-fold: inadequate pre-spin brief, and an instructor with no person-skills. So, I didn't know what was going on, and he didn't care or notice my fear.

Keep it in the syllabus (quite late on, I'd suggest) but even more importantly you instructors, look after your student. Your influence can last many many years - for better or worse.
GT.

meslag

1st Sep 2001, 02:48

One of the problems encountered with students who have been demostrated spinning before is that they are scared of spining. This i believe, is because they have been taught in the manner in which i was. That is, slow the aircraft down and near the stall, full elevator and full rudder..... the aircraft sort of flicks rapidly into a spin... thus scared student. Whilst teaching aerobatics, we taught a very controlled method into the spin which students were surprised at... and sometimes even enjoyed. This is because most wanna be airline pilot instructors dont know the first thing about spinning an aircraft... they only demostrate what the last wanna-be airline pilot taught them. More understanding of the art is needed from instuctor not just repeating the course notes..

Tiger_ Moth

3rd Sep 2001, 20:02

Can I just say that I dont know what the big fuss about stalling is and it shouldnt be compared with spinning. Before I did stalls I thought they were nothing big and would be easy to get out of and now that ive done them I still think that. All that happens is that the nose goes down. If you think about it it would be harder to keep a plane stalled than to unstall it which would probably happen even if you left the controls. I know Tiger Moths are meant to be tame stallers but still.
Spins are completely different, they are like aerobatics. I havent actually covered spins yet but I know what to do, how to get in and out of them and my instructor demonstrated one. It was fun!
I think that its important that spins are taught well because even if you're in something that you dont want to spin you should know how to handle it if it does. An explanation is not good enough.

Has anyone ever heard of a large airliner being spun? That would be a novelty.

And: Do ppls HAVE to be taught and be able to demonstrate getting out of a fully developed spin or not? Or do they only have to be able to prevent a spin?

Whirlybird

3rd Sep 2001, 23:52

Tiger Moth,

Spins are no longer in the PPL syllabus at all. As far as I know, they were taken out because more people were killing themselves practising them than were going to be killed be getting into one inadvertently. That's more or less what this thread is about, at least I think so.

Concerning stalling, you're right, and then again you're not. Anything in aviation is easy when you're ready for it, not overloaded, and have altitude and therefore time. But problems in flying don't occur under those ideal conditions. One of the most likely times and places for an unexpected stall is coming into land in difficult conditions - are you sure it would be that easy to cope if you stalled due to windshear at 300 ft with full flap? After nearly 200 hours, I'm not. Or what happened to me a bit back; I let a friend take over in straight and level flight, and she panicked and froze on the controls. Luckily we were at 4000 feet and she relaxed again after a few seconds and I took over; otherwise I would have been very glad to have had a bit of time to sort things out. It's all too easy to get over confident; I know, I've done it.

Fuji Abound

4th Sep 2001, 00:50

Tiger Moth - I agree with the previous writer. The reason why stalls, and previously spins, were included in the PPL is so that the pilot is familiar with the recovery action to be taken and likely to be able to execute this during times of high workload without too much thought. Stalls and spins that are unexpected are always potentially dangerous I would have thought. Yes, in some types the stall may be pretty benign and unlikely to devlop into a spin, whilst in other types a stall can be rapidly followed by a pronounced wing drop and spin. In any event, height loss is always rapid. I reckon that pilots who do not regularly refresh recovery from stalls and spins are just that much slower to apply the correct technique - at 5000 feet it might not matter too much but I guess again that is not the one thats going to catch us out.

Say again s l o w l y

5th Sep 2001, 04:08

There really is a load of old tosh being written here.

Most PPL's fly a/c such as 152/172 etc. Spin recovery on these is only a matter of releasing the rudder and easing out of the dive. I agree that if spin training is taught then it should be a system that works on all planes not just your average Cessna/Cherokee. Which you really have to try hard to spin in the first place.

The main point is being missed here tho', if someone is incompetent enough to get into a spin turning finals (where most people manage it) at around 700 ft, does anybody really think that they will have the presence of mind to recover in the very short space of time before impact?? I don't think so.

If people are to undertake any sort of aero's then spin training MUST be mandatory, personally before any aero sortie with a student, I make sure they can recite the spin recovery very accurately and then make them prove this to me once we are actually up and flying.

As to the comment that Wannabe airline pilots are to scared to teach spin recovery properly, well I'll treat that with the disdain that it deserves. I know this 'cos I am a wannabe (actually v.soon will be) airline pilot, but at the moment am a professional instructor and I take my job very seriously indeed, if that means going spinning, you make sure you do it as well as you teach the rest of the syllabus.

If people are wary of the spin, that's actually no bad thing. If you are wary of it then you are more likely to avoid it. The thought of many of the PPL's I fly with going off and spinning on their own fills me with dread.
Spins should never be taken lightly, especially if you don't fly as often as you should to keep totally current. Military pilots are very different from your average PPL and if they have to do a spin check every month, how often should you do them?

Believe it or not though, I do think that spinning should be in the syllabus to stop people being scared of the a/c, The number of times I've had students turn to me and say 'is that it?' As they've heard all the horror stories in the bar from people who should really know better.

Spinning can be fun, but it can also be dangerous if the correct precautions are not taken, how many do the weight and balance calcs before going??

Just remember the tragic crash on Osea island (10nm N Southend) when two people were killed in a Commmander whilst spin training. :(
Whatever the cause was, it needn't of happened. One of our members was first on scene and after he told us about it all, aero and spin training stopped for a while. RIP.

Just make sure that you actually know what you are doing and that the plane is capable. After that enjoy them, then get somone capable to teach you aero's then you can really learn how to fly a plane!
Quick tip, 10 hours of aero's is worth 100 hours straight and level, when it comes to handling finesse.

Spleen vented, time for bed.
:)

[ 05 September 2001: Message edited by: Say again s l o w l y ]

Genghis the Engineer

5th Sep 2001, 18:32

I'm a latecomer to this thread, but stalling and spinning is a subject on which I have strong views.

Any aircraft used in a flying club for stall or spin training is specifically designed and certified as being benign in that respect. The standards vary slightly, but are generally in the order of max. 20° wing drop at the stall, and able to recover from a spin within one turn.

Not all aeroplanes are like that, I have experienced a 12 turn spin and watched (from telemetry) a 19 turn spin - both should have been 4-6 turns. I have experienced 60° wing drop IN AN AIRLINER at the point of stall, and know of one aircraft that can roll 180° at the stall if the flaps are down. The Bulldog is well known for pleasant spinning characteristics,until you put on a bit of in-spin aileron....

Yes learn stalling, and spinning. By all means state that "stalls in a C152 / PA28 are a non-event", but you train for the day that you are flying something non-benign when it bites. I know of a C150 which recently nearly killed somebody in the spin - almost certainly down to a leading edge dent - it could happen to any of you, it's already happened to me but good training (AND PRACTICE) got me out of it.

G

john_tullamarine

5th Sep 2001, 20:06

Like Genghis, I have only just seen this discussion and definitely want to echo his comments.

Two thoughts result -

(a) in Oz, unless things have changed in recent years, 172s, Cherokees and the like are Normal (and for some models Utility) Category and not approved for spinning and other aerobatic style things. Is it so very different overseas ? .. or am I just being a bit of a fuddy duddy ?

(b) one CAN get into unpleasant unintended or uncommanded situations from time to time.

(i) Many years ago as a young chap, I had a moment or two of excitement when a Blanik didn't release properly on a booming day at a height not all that much above the ground.... and I subsequently found the Supercub upside down and stopped before I could pull the bung to get rid of the glider (the glider instructor did the same thing at much the same time and we ended up losing the towrope .. pity about that).

Now, this situation was not at all commanded or intended by me .. but I was stuck with the problem.

End result was a recovery nearly in amongst the tree tops.

(ii) on another occasion, while doing some flight testing post mod on a PA31, a stall check saw the aircraft with landing flap go rapidly through the vertical in roll.

.... food for thought, perhaps ... if a chap hadn't been exposed to such things before they happened ?

[ 05 September 2001: Message edited by: john_tullamarine ]

Evo7

5th Sep 2001, 21:44

Genghis and John T

What would you chaps recommend that a 10 or so hour pre-solo spamcanner should do, then? At the moment I'm flying an almost unstallable PA-28, so I'm planning on getting some stall/spin lessons in a Tomahawk post-solo, but it sounds like you chaps are talking about learning something altogether more hostile??

cheers :)

Tiger_ Moth

6th Sep 2001, 00:05

Whirly, Tigers dont have flaps but should be able to recover from a stall in under 300ft with ease. Obviously if you do anything low enough its dangerous, even a turn, if low enough could be dangerous but I still dont think spins are particularly hard although of course they could be dangerous, if low enough, like everything.
What do you mean they froze on the controls? They froze in straight and level, or they froze in a stall or what? Even if they did couldnt you just use your controls to get out of it?

Whirlybird

6th Sep 2001, 01:47

Tiger Moth,

Yes, of course an aircraft can recover from a stall in less than 300 ft. But can YOU, if it happens unexpectedly, and perhaps when you're tired and have had a difficult flight? You don't know.

By froze on the controls I mean she tensed up and wouldn't let go. Which meant I couldn't use mine, and was just about to hit her - I thought I'd have to - when she responded to my gentle reassurance and relaxed so I could take over. Not nice. I'll think very hard before I let my passengers have a go again. But the point I was making was that a stall in such circumstances would not be easy to recover from, especially if I'd still been fighting for control.

Tiger, you seem to think you know all about flying, when you have very very little experience. It's not like you think it is. When I got my PPL, I thought I knew it all - well, most of it anyway. Now with over 300 hours (f/w and rotary combined), I realise just how incredibly little I know. Can I suggest you try and learn from others' mistakes, in case you don't live long enough to learn from your own?

[ 05 September 2001: Message edited by: Whirlybird ]

Final 3 Greens

6th Sep 2001, 17:51

Tiger

Hear hear to Whirly's comments. It's great to see your enthusiasm and commitment to flying - we can use some keen new blood!

I have a few hundred hours too and the more I fly, the more I realise how much of a learner I am.

Also I am fortunate enough to have access to some ATPLs and they are still learning everyday too. They would not treat a stall at 300' lightly!

Keep the posts coming, I always enjoy your perspective. :p

pulse1

6th Sep 2001, 19:26

The first time I learnt to fly, spin training was compulsory and full spin recovery was included in my GFT. This was in a Tiger Moth and, although I never spun the Tiger Moth again, the sort of flying one tends to do in a Moth probably means that the risk of a fully developed spin is more likely than in your average tourer and I believe it should be included as a type check for this type of aircraft. However, I feel that more attention should have been given then, and certainly should be now, to avoiding the spin. Flying the Tiger and gliders tends to develop healthy instincts in correct use of rudder at low speeds, which those who learn on PA28/C152 types, as I did the second time, do not appear to learn. In fact I was not given any training in this at all but, like riding a bike, I was pleased that my instincts are still there. This, in my view, is why so many serious accidents seem to happen during the final turn, particularly after a loss of power or during high turbulence.

In my own flying I do sometimes allow the nose to go too high when I am distracted during the final turn and, riding as a passenger, I know it is not uncommon with other more experienced pilots than me. Surely it is how we instinctively react to that situation, when we first sense the continuing wing drop, which is important and should be thoroughly trained into student pilots.

On a previous thread I shared my one experience of an accidental, incipient spin while trying to burst balloons. At that time, with plenty of height, it suited me to let the spin develop for half a turn to get back quickly to the balloons but, if that had happened on the final turn, no more Tiger and perhaps no more me. Hardly a month goes by when the AAIB reports do not describe a fatal final turn turning into a spin.
Something needs to change.

Genghis the Engineer

6th Sep 2001, 22:36

Evo,

A good question, well asked, but not so easy to answer.

Stalling and spinning are such complex subjects that in the test flying world there are people recognised as being specialists in the subject. The majority of people however, like you, get little chance to truly understand the subject. My congratulations on knowing your limitations, like Whirly, I had a few more hours before I learned how little I knew.

If you get a chance to experience an "interesting" spin, do - it's a very educational experience. The Bulldog is a good such aircraft, as is the C150 in certain circumstances. If possible try and fly with an ex-military, or an aerobatic pilot who REALLY understands spinning. Probably the best chap in the UK for this is David Scouller, the CFI at Old Sarum, who used to be a very senior military test pilot and has a couple of Bulldogs at his disposal for teaching aeros and spinning.

But realistically, your best bet is by reading and talking. There are a couple of good books out there about spinning, some more sensible than others. My personal bible (apart from stuff with my name on the cover, which modesty prevents me mentioning) is the spinning chapter in Darrol Stinton's unparalleled "Handling Qualities and Flight Testing of the Aeroplane". Darrol is probably the most knowledgable person in the world on the subject of small aeroplane handling, and his books are well worth the money (despite not being cheap).

Hope this helps,

G

kabz

7th Sep 2001, 01:25

Nothing like practice.

Pre-solo spin training is mandatory at our glider club, as they are pretty easy to spin. One of our members spun a 1-26 whilst wringing just a little too much out of a thermal, and duly recovered safely.

An accidental stall and departure into a spin -- the first time -- is quite a bit different to just doing them on purpose in training, and is much scarier.

You better have had lots of practice ones, before one bites you for real -- because these aircraft ***can and will*** spin ...

FWIW: My first flight instructor demoed a couple of spins in a C152 but he was obviously wetting himself, and certainly wouldn't let me try it ... It was a refreshing change to join a gliding club and get it covered properly ... with a few wingovers thrown in on the same flight ...

[ 06 September 2001: Message edited by: kabz ]

Evo7

7th Sep 2001, 01:34

Genghis

Thanks for the reply. The problem with reading about spins is that it is rather like the time aged 11 (in my case) that you discover that your parents have a copy of The Joy of Sex. You can read the words, but they don't mean much. That's why I'm going to go see for myself, but your idea of trying to get hold of a Bulldog and an experienced FI is a good one. May be a little while before that happens but I'll do it.

Stalls, even in a humble Warrior, surprised me quite a bit because I found - and still find - it hard to react to the stall instinctively, especially with a bit of FI-induced wing drop. I get there, but it still takes me a bit too long. If it did happen at 300 feet, with the added stress that must bring, then I'd worry about how well I'd cope right now. Practice will hopefully improve things. I'd never hope to see a stall in my post-PPL days, but you never know so better learn how to deal with it. Likewise spins.

Oh, and I'm firmly of the opinion that I know nothing about flying. First trial lesson taught me that (what, so it's not like FS98!!) and nothing yet has changed my mind... :)

[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: Evo7 ]

Final 3 Greens

7th Sep 2001, 21:21

Hi everyone

Just a sense check on the PA28 (taoer wing, i.e. 151, 161, 181, 200R, 236)

Don;t forget that it may be a pussy cat in the stall, but that if you do lose it when you have an aft CofG, you can enter a flat spin.

Please read the POH - its unlikely, but potentially fatal.

When all is said and done, spamcans can still kill careless pilots.

Tiger_ Moth

8th Sep 2001, 22:40

Whirly,
I dont think i know everything about flying but I do think stalls are not quite as dangerous as people often make out although I admit it would be worse if unexpected. I know you know a lot more about flying than me and accept what you say. The point I think I was trying to make was that in comparison to a spin a stall is tame. I think spins could be very dangerous especially if low. I noticed that we often side slip a lot on finals to lose height. This uses quite a lot of rudder at low speed so I wondered if anyone had ever heard of a Tiger Moth spinning on finals as a result of a poorly conducted side slip?
Do you mean they just froze for no reason in straight and level flight? Youd be done for in a Tiger Moth!
By the way I know its forbidden for ppls to let passengers have a go at the controls but is this a rule that everyone breaks?

Genghis the Engineer

9th Sep 2001, 01:20

Evo, Any sensible pilot should practice stalls regularly, I do a couple a month (along with PFLs).

Tiger, Passengers are perfectly permitted to handle the controls, it's just that the Captain is still responsible for whatever happens.

G

Final 3 Greens

9th Sep 2001, 20:39

Tiger

Some stalls can be very vicious, e.g. departure stalls at high power settings resulting in the aircraft being thrown around violently - so don't be under the impression that they are all as comfortable as normal stalls.

I've never heard of a Tiger spinning in from side slipping, but that does not mean it could not happen - you need to ask a Tiger expert; I don't have any Tiger time, but normally to keep slips safe, you just keep the airspeed safe (i.e. somewhat higher than the best glide speed) - it's often said to be a little dangerous to slip high winged a/c with flaps extended because of the aerodynamics, but I must admit that I don't know about any ill effects with biplanes through lack of experience.

Slipping is a very useful skill unknown to many PPLs and is a great way of losing height quickly in spamcans, as well as Tigers!

Cheers

F3G

Say again s l o w l y

9th Sep 2001, 22:56

Side-slipping can be a good way of losing height in a low wing type. A Cessna with full flap and side slipping is not a sensible proposition as the airflow to the tail plane can be disturbed. Definately a way of spoiling your day.

Anyway I always tell students that if they have to side-slip then they've got the approach wrong. It should only ever be used as a last resort. >1000 ft/min descent at low level- not a good idea, best to keep it smooth and in control at all times. The reverse Bat out of hell approach makes me nervous!!! ;)

john_tullamarine

9th Sep 2001, 23:55

Evo7,

I concur with Genghis.

Stall/spin characteristics vary a lot according to the basic aircraft, aircraft loading, method/circumstances of entry, and subsequent control handling .. and probably a lot of other things not generally within my ken ... no doubt some of the TPs could go on at length on the subject.

I am all for (at the very least) exposure training both for familiarity with an aircraft's characteristics and manipulative confidence building, accident stats notwithstanding.

Many people don't like much in the way of varying g-loads - me included - but the fact still remains that a pilot, even while minding his/her own business, can inadvertently get into awkward situations - knowledge and confidence contribute a lot both to avoiding and getting out of such situations.

I trained in AirTourers in the 60s and sometime after first solo thought it appropriate to ask my God-like instructor whether we ought to have a look at these mysterious things... which we did, even though that aeroplane doesn't really do a spin as such. After my initial, quite disorienting, exposure .. which I remember very clearly ... dear old Cec wasn't into political correctness and student molly-coddling to any great extent .. I found subsequent aerobatic training, both visual and instrument, to be great fun and a great learning and confidence experience.

Perhaps contrary to your more youthful observations at the time and now inferred comparisons to flying, I am of the view that sex is a damned sight better fun than spinning .... but, then again, each activity requires generous helpings of sound basic training and subsequent dedication to continuation training for successful execution ... so I guess that they are in the same league after all.