P1 requirements for shared ownership

[Lowtimer]

If you're in a syndicate for a single-engine piston type in the UK, I'd be interested in the view your syndicate would tend to take of a new PPL wishing to join. Do syndicates often require, e.g., 100 hrs P1, either out of their own caution, or because of insurance requirements? Or will a proper checkout to the satisfaction of a syndicate/insurer approved instructor sometimes do the trick?

[Kiltie]

I spent many years in a well run Warrior syndicate. 15 members, £65 a month and £45 an hour.

Insurance companies generally don't worry about low experience on non-complex types; but generally request the proviso that any one member flies at least once every six weeks; if not then he/she must fly with a nominated check pilot in the group to renew his informal "validity".

[Fuji Abound]

It seems to be pretty common for groups to require at least 100 hours total. This usually would not seem to be a requirement of the insurers, albeit regardless of hours insurers will often impose additional terms on the insured for the first ten hours or so on type.

For any one with low hours I think there are two key issues. From the groups point of view, a well run group will be wanting to ensure the low timer has developed a professional approach to his flying. For me, this will mean that he is particularly aware of situations that are probably at or beyond his ability to safely cope. Obviously this is a skill which we each develop at our own rate and can be either well or poorly developed in low timers. From the prospective group member’s point of view the low timer needs to join a group in which he will be well supported with members willing to spend time with him as check pilots to ensure that he is comfortable on type.

What’s the point? Well obviously safety, but also well run groups will want to feel their aircraft will be looked after, not suffering excessive harsh handling or incorrect operating procedures which will prove costly to the group.

A small example. During my PPL training I think I was shown how to lean an engine once - there before and there after all the flying was fully rich. As a group member, when you are all directly paying for the fuel and the new engine, I guess you will not be thanked for such shameful waste!

In consequence it should be a two way process. If the group is not prepared to undertake at least one initial check ride with you prior to joining be suspicious. In turn, if they are critical of your flying take the criticism on board. In particular, if they are prepared to have you as a member, but insist on four, five, or six hours dual, you have probably found a good group who will help you develop your skills on type before letting you lose solo.

Good luck!

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Fuji Abound ]

[A and C]

It is often best to have an instructor from outside the group to do the check flights on members as flying standards desputs within the group can be distructive to group harmony.

[Fuji Abound]

A and C - good point but whilst instructors are hopefully great on the flying skills often they are not as familiar with the idiosyncrasies of the groups' type - obviously it does depend what it is and how complex it is.

I think it is important to remember that a group check out is not a GFT, but it is about exploring the flight envelope of the type I would have thought.

Having said that hopefully the group check pilots will have done their C of E's or IMC / IR renewals on type. If they have they well have picked up some good points from their FI.

[Lowtimer]

Thanks for the views - all very helpful feedback. I hope to finish my PPL in a few months' time and shortly after that add a tailwheel conversion and a good bout of instruction on strip technique, and am hoping subsequently to find a home in a syndicate somewhere in East Anglia. Obviously I'll be looking for a very thorough checkout before I solo and / or go anywhere - but would have to postpone the whole concept if I need to work up to 100 hrs first! :)

[bookworm]

Our insurer requires 5 hours accompanied (instructor or another insured pilot) for any pilot with less than 100 hours, and increases the excess by 100 quid until they have 100 hours. That's for a complex type (VP, retractable).

From the point of view of peace of mind for the rest of the group in assessing a potential new member, I think attitude speaks much louder than hours.

[arrow2]

We look for 100 hrs total time (Group requirement and insurance requirement), complex differences training complete and a 1 or 2 hour check flight by an existing group member. Simple.

A2

[QNH 1013]

Lowtimer,
Our group (which has been running successfully for at least fifteen years) regularly has new members with less than 100 total time and we have also had a student in the group, although this did increase the insurance slightly. The group has six members and one or two shares seem to change hands each year.
We require a checkout on type and if the new member hasn't flown taildraggers, the conversion is done on the group aircraft, taking as many hours as necessary- normally at least five.
The group is run so successfully that we have just been able to have our engine zero-timed (After 2600 hours).

[Deputy Dog]

My very first flight after I qualified (47 hrs)was in my very own aircraft (shared with 6 others of course). Insurance for me was about £250 more but my group kindly absorbed it. Had to have a 1hr checkout with instructor. Flew with the other members and they felt safe so I guess that's the litmus test !!!!

[BeauMan]

QNH 1013, I notice you mention tailwheel. What a/c does your group own?

[QNH 1013]

BeauMan, Jodel type D112, A65 engine (just been zero timed), £28 per month plus £9 per hour (wheels-off to wheels-on) dry. i.e we buy our own AVGAS and leave the aircraft refueled fully after flying. The group pays for any oil.
To give you a flavour of just how inexpensive group flying can be, our club membership covers all landings at base and we have reciprocal free landings at twenty other airfields.
I just wish I could use it for my IR Renewal!