Fuel conditioning by magnets [Archive]

jxk

5th Jul 2010, 19:51

IO540
I don't know if this relevant but I once tried an experiment using a petrol blow-lamp and a strong magnet. There was no difference to the flame whether or not the magnet was placed anywhere on the blow-lamp or not... Not very scientific, but it convinced me that the claims for these magnetic devices was not proven.

Chris Royle

5th Jul 2010, 20:43

Magnetic water softeners do work (by making the minerals not stick to things) but that's a different thing...

Whuh... :ugh:

Sounds like the same school of idiot science that produces people who sell (and buy FGS!!) magnetic copper bracelets to ward off arthritis!!::confused:

mad_jock

5th Jul 2010, 20:43

Its an utter load of pish.

Final year students up and down the land have been trying for years in thermo labs to prove they work. One student even strapped a super cooled MRI type magnet round the fuel pipe and it did bugger all.

As one Prof put it at a post conference bar session "there is more chance it will improve your fertility strapping them to your nuts than improving fuel economy"

Lister Noble

5th Jul 2010, 20:59

I was told they may possibly work while the liquid is circulating,but the second it stops,the minerals or whatever settle out again.
Acid water is soft,maybe nitrous oxide injection could work?:}
If the magnets work against arthritis,why don't hospitals place patients in an MRI scanner for a couple of minutes;)?

Zulu Alpha

5th Jul 2010, 21:06

Never underestimate the power of the placebo effect.

DGJ formerly known as ZA

Loerie

5th Jul 2010, 21:27

I have run big Yachts for years and over the past three years have used a unit which is sold as 'Algae-X' and is installed in-line before the primary Racor.It is supposed to improve diesel fuel by removing the algae which is in all diesel (at least where we operate).I has to be cleaned sometimes,and it seems to work,witness less filter changing etc.The unit has magnets inside----which do what......?Anyone know how this works?

J.A.F.O.

5th Jul 2010, 21:29

ZA

Does the car have to believe?

Loerie

5th Jul 2010, 21:38

Seeems to be advertised for Diesel use,mainly Marine,Heavy Equipment,etc.Cars have small storage tanks and a fast fuel turnover and therefore don`t grow stuff in their fuel tanks.We carry 800 gallons and only refuel once every 4 months or so and some water always enters the tanks either from condensation or water leaks from the filler or from some idiot using the wrong filler.This feeds the algae with moisture and it grows into a brown mass that blocks everything and causes all kinds of trouble like going onto reefs without an engine in a blow.it seems to be worthwhile to fit one,under the circumstances----and if you own the Yacht....

Fuji Abound

5th Jul 2010, 21:38

I have run big Yachts for years

Probably in the same way magnetic "filters" work in ponds. The idea is that they alter the water's chemistry which prevents the algae growing. The algae "live" in the interface between fuel and water that almost always exists in the bottom of tanks.

Personally I think all these gimmicks are similiar to snake oil.

They may have some marginal benefit but I am dubious the claims made would stand up to proper scientific scrutiny.

Loerie

5th Jul 2010, 21:41

OK,thanks.Appear to work for us and they are not expensive-----anything to improve the abysmal fuel in the BVI``s
Cheers for replying,anyhow.

mad_jock

5th Jul 2010, 21:56

Its more likely that what its doing is pulling the rust particles which the algae have clumped around into it. You have similar setups in central heating systems to pull ferris out off your system so it doesn't clog your boiler up and knacker the pump.

IO540

5th Jul 2010, 22:17

Magnets definitely work well on preventing minerals in water sticking to pipes etc. I have used them in several houses. And if you install one in an old house , for the next few months you have chunks of scale clogging up your shower etc as they come off the pipework! I have no problem believing this, therefore.

But using a magnet to make fuel burn better seems to be utter nonsense. If there was any measurable improvement, it would have been verified by now, because it would be so easy to measure.

vihai

6th Jul 2010, 00:46

Magnets definitely work well on preventing minerals in water sticking to pipes etc.

Are you really really sure?

Because there are real scientists using the real scientific method who were unable to reproduce even the smallest effect.

I have used them in several houses. And if you install one in an old house , for the next few months you have chunks of scale clogging up your shower etc as they come off the pipework!

That happens even if you don't install magnets :)

what next

6th Jul 2010, 06:12

Hello!

Because there are real scientists using the real scientific method who were unable to reproduce even the smallest effect.There is at least _some_ scientifically gathered evidence that magnetic fields can alter the crystallisation of calcium carbonate. Whether this leads to less calcium deposits in water pipes has yet to be proven, though. When we moved house last time (10 years ago) I thoroughly researched the subject (with the aid of a physicist) and came to the conclusion _not_ to spend any money on magnetic water treatment.

Regarding magnetic fuel treatment, there exists zero scientific evidence and zero scientific explanation of the effects claimed.

Here is some reading stuff for those interested in the subject:
Quick overview: CSI | Magnetic Water and Fuel Treatment: Myth, Magic, or Mainstream Science? (http://www.csicop.org/si/show/magnetic_water_and_fuel_treatment_myth_magic_or_mainstream_s cience/)

In depth literature research with many links: Magnetic water treatment pseudoscience (http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html)

Regards,
Max

24Carrot

6th Jul 2010, 08:00

The link in the original post claims:
...fuel conditioned by a strong magnetic force carries more energy and mixes more readily with air...Sadly, it doesn't tell us where this "more energy" comes from.

mad_jock

6th Jul 2010, 08:22

That is one excuse why it works

Another is that it aligns all the molecules so decreases friction in the pipes.

Then another theory is that it does something to the free radicals.

As you might have guess I did have something to do with thermo lads and the testing of said magnets.

When the students orginally did it and failed to produce results it was because they wern't using a rare earth magnet. As the Prof said its bloody rare alright because one doesn't excist. They then just to humour them used a production magnet out of the box. Then the fuel line was to big, the fuel flow was to high. Magnet to far away from the injectors I think you can see my drift.

In the end we borrowed a super cooled super magnet which was a beast of a thing require a heap of work to get it safe due to the fact you are sticking a magnet next to a ferris box of metal and was that powerfull it could pull screws out of blockboard just by turning it on.

The students used it on petrol, desiel, and turbine test beds with no difference recorded. The reply was that we were using the wrong type of magnetic fields???? The chaps flogging this stuff need a Noble prize cause they know about stuff that nobody else does.

I am actually suprised none of importers have turned up on this thread. 10 years ago they used to regularly join BB's when the subject came up to confuse matters when it was being discussed. We had the amusing situation that they didn't know we were all scuba divers and on the diving BB's discussing its application on boat engines. So they were arguing with the same people in 4 different places and using circular referencing to try and prove a point.

S-Works

6th Jul 2010, 08:26

I just use maggots on the end of a fishing hook. They don't work there either.....

troddenmasses

6th Jul 2010, 08:32

I work for one of the largest analytical instrumentation companies who amongst other things, make instruments to test fuels. We certainly couldn't find any difference, and as a colleague said -
"it's a product that looks better in Powerpoint than Excel".

cats_five

6th Jul 2010, 08:51

Sounds like all typical quacks - the scientists just aren't doing it right and the goalposts move faster than Concord did. Plenty of magnet 'science' at Bad Science, though I didn't spot any on the two specific areas mentioend here.

magnets – Bad Science (http://www.badscience.net/category/magnets/)

rans6andrew

6th Jul 2010, 09:14

I don't think that the magnets do anything for arthritis but I understand that the copper bracelets have a positive effect. The copper is absorbed through the skin (your arm gets stained quite quickly) and directly enters your system. There is some science behind this, it was found that folk working in copper mines/industries had much lower incidences of arthritis. Probably just makes up for some dietary deficiency.

Rans6..

Chris Royle

6th Jul 2010, 11:27

Rans6
"the copper is absorbed through the skin (your arm gets stained quite quickly) and directly enters your system. There is some science behind this, it was found that folk working in copper mines/industries had much lower incidences of arthritis. Probably just makes up for some dietary deficiency".

What complete and utter bollocks!!

There is some science behind this it was found that folk working in copper mines/industries had much lower incidences of arthritis. By whom? When?

what next

6th Jul 2010, 13:50

...it was found that folk working in copper mines/industries had much lower incidences of arthritis...

This is simply due to the fact that mine workers (especially those mining for unhealthy metals) on average don't get old enough to develop arthritis :uhoh:

mad_jock

6th Jul 2010, 21:50

And...

If any english man is willing to strap one of them there 1.5 kg magnets to there bollocks for a month and try and concieve a kid my old boss is willing to put it through the ethics commitee. Aparently its not worth testing jocks cause our sperm count is to high He did seem quite tickled with the idea of getting permission from the ethics commitee.

BTW its a well know fact that london boys have a lower sperm count than most scottish burds apart from the london poofs.

Fuji Abound

6th Jul 2010, 22:11

Its more likely that what its doing is pulling the rust particles which the algae have clumped around into it.

Doubtful as unless it is a very old yacht most tanks are plastic these days and while rust could enter with the fuel you would be very unwise not to run it through a filter if in any doubt. In any event you would see rust contamination in the fuel filters.

Thinking further I dont believe the bacteria utilise calcium minerals in the water in any event and since the rust aprticles would sink I also dont see the bacteria, moulds or yeast would form on the rust particles at the water fuel interface.

Having read biology at University I have to conclude as with others there is just no scientific evidence to support any of these "theories" and to be blunt it is a load of old

....... codswallop

be it anything to do with magnets and fuel and water and central heating.

There is a paper here http://www.agriemach.com/htmlarea/uploaded-files//Why%20Bacteria%20Hate%20Magnets.pdf on why bacteria hate magnets. Aside from the paper being technically incorrect elsewhere the paper is linked with the "success" of a particular fuel "filter". Just a little thought will demonstrate why this is complete nonesense. The suggestion is bacteria "hate" magnets. Yet in contaminated fuel they have no choice in entering the filter. Moreover once there whether alive or dead they will cause the same blockage to the downline fuel filter so the magent has had zero effect even if it kills the bacteria. In reality a signifcant part of the blockage caused by diesel bug is attributable to dead bacteria - bacteria which die in the tank, not the filter.

Lister Noble

7th Jul 2010, 13:39

Mad Jock!
You hadn't by chance been at some distilled substance when you posted that,had you?:)
The reason Scots sperm count is so high,is that
1- It's very cold in the wildlands and that encourages a high count.
2-You don't have anywhere to put it,apart from sheep and the odd hind.:}
Lister
Down south,warm but fertile:)

IO540

7th Jul 2010, 13:47

I think the authorised version of that one is that Essex girls have a higher sperm count than Essex boyz. I suppose, by extension, Scottish sheep have a higher sperm count than Scottish farmers.

vihai

7th Jul 2010, 13:54

Hello!

There is at least _some_ scientifically gathered evidence that magnetic fields can alter the crystallisation of calcium carbonate.

Yes, I should have been more precise. There is no scientific evidence that the effect is maintained when the magnetic field is removed and/or useful in real piping.

onetrack

7th Jul 2010, 15:13

If anyone believes that magnets around a fuel line increase fuel mileage... then I've got 5,000,000 shares in a company called Firepower to sell you, real cheap... :suspect:

Firepower have a sure-fire pill to double your fuel mileage. Trust me, I've been in on this from the word go, and you'll make a huge killing... but only if you move fast.................... real fast... before Tim Johnston goes to jail.... :suspect:

Fuel magnet scam - Google Search (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-au%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7SUNA_en&q=Fuel+magnet+scam&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)

Firepower scam - Google Search (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-au%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7SUNA_en&q=Firepower+scam&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)

Mtech Fuel Saver Questionable Fuel Saving Device - Department of Commerce (http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/Corporate/Media/statements/2008/October/Questionable_Fuel_Saving_Devic.html)

24Carrot

7th Jul 2010, 17:29

BTW its a well know fact that london boys have a lower sperm count than most scottish burds apart from the london poofs. If memory serves, "The Skeptical Environmentalist" by Bjorn Lomborg has a section on sperm counts, (they were supposed to be falling over time, due to any number of possible dreadful man-made causes). He looked at the sampling biases in the studies, which included biases in urban versus rural. I think the gist was the city boys made the same amount, but used it faster! If you want any more details, read the book, I don't want to get banned...

mad_jock

8th Jul 2010, 06:30

I thought it was more a water related thing and the fact that London water in particular was recycled so much, 9 times on average per glass. The water plant proccessing doesn't remove hormones so with the prelevent use of the contraceptive pill the blokes were all getting doses of hormones with every glass.

There was something else as well about Nutrasweet. But I can't remember the details. H'mm maybe thats the reason Irun Bru unleaded doesn't use Nurtasweet.

mad_jock

8th Jul 2010, 07:22

BTW I reckon I should get a thread drift award for going from Magnets to Sperm counts.

IO540

8th Jul 2010, 08:03

S-Works

8th Jul 2010, 09:38

Is drinking water recycled? I don't think there is anywhere (apart from space vehicles, and India) where any part of sewage intentionally goes back to drinking water. The process for that does exist but is awfully expensive.

It is recycled through the natural cycle, waste is treated and released back into the water system through lakes and streams and seepage and then is collected again through water extraction.

So not directly recycled in the same way as a space station but the same end result.

Piltdown Man

8th Jul 2010, 15:46

Any product that works will have a cast iron guarantee to that effect. Does this product have such a guarantee?

PM

mad_jock

9th Jul 2010, 17:11

The london water supply is a semi closed system for a couple of reasons.

1. The out put after sweage treament makes the water cleaner than if you pulled it from a ground source.

2. The sheer volume required would mean that supply rivers would end up with dry sections between the inlet pipe and were the outlet from the treatment plant.

Lister Noble

9th Jul 2010, 18:23

I'm not sure that is true.
Pharmaceuticals,phosphates and nitrogen spring to mind for a start.
OK they are at a nationally recognised safe level,but not sure they are at a lower level than some groundwater supplies.

IO540

9th Jul 2010, 20:50

I don't think it is true either. Sewage is treated only to stop the raw stuff going into the river and the sea. Recovering drinking quality water from sewage takes a lot of energy. Nature recycles the water of course but it gets distilled via precipitation, which is OK.

Fly-by-Wife

9th Jul 2010, 22:00

mad_jock, have you been reading Urban leagends again? ;)

Thames Water takes its supply from aquifers (groundwater), rivers and reservoirs, not directly from sewage treatment plants.

While the transformation from incoming sewage to outgoing water is remarkable at a sewage treatment plant, it is not miraculous. Not surprisingly, to prevent cross-contamination, potable water treatment plants and sewage treatment plants are separated. The processes and chemicals they each use are quite different.

Even today, it is not true that all sewage is treated before it is discharged into the sea or rivers.

One of the problems in the UK is that, historically, there has never been proper separation between surface water drainage and sewage (foul water). The sewage treatment plants can deal with the normal influx of combined surface and foul water but when there is heavy rainfall, then the volume - briefly - exceeds capacity, even of storm water holding tanks. At this point, some of the mixed sewage "overflow" has to be allowed to bypass treatment altogether, and goes straight out to sea / river.

The only two ways to improve this are to a) increase capacity by building new / extending existing sewage treatment plants or b) separating the drainage system. The latter is virtually impossible except in new-build developments while the former is expensive and unpopular - NIMBYism, etc.

FBW