Will we learn?

[Stratton]

I unfortunate enough to be at North Weald aerodrome in July last year, on the day of the crash between a Cessna & Yak which was part of a display team, which resulted in the death of 3 people & would like to make the following points regarding the incident.

1.Since the time of the accident, which occurred as a result of a procedural misunderstanding, I have seen no safety information posted at the airfield or in the aviation/CAA press. This accident could easily be repeated at North Weald or any other facility that permits military style radio calls within the circuit & does not instruct GA users on their use.

2.I will not speak directly of the pilot involved but of the group of whom he was a member: As mentioned above I flew on the morning of the accident & encountered the members of this team on the walk out to my aircraft. My friendly “Good morning” was met by a stony if not sarcastic silence. I was immediately made to feel inferior to these guys a situation that I have encountered a number of times during my time flying, where a public school type of aloofness & arrogance can prevail. I’m quite happy to leave these people to their own inadequacies, but on this occasion a friendly instruction on what the team intended to do in the vicinity of the aerodrome would have certainly been beneficial to me. From speaking to other flyers subsequent to the crash, the best course of action whenever these “professional” pilots are about is to stay on the ground, an option I took following one circuit that morning & observing lack of regard for the safety of other users that these guys displayed.

[Kermit 180]

Agreed, some people can be real twits around airfields, there's a small group of pilots out there who believe theyre on a station in life above everyone else.

However, I am sure the majority of pilots see themselves as part of the aviation brotherhood (sisterhood too, just to be PC). A quick word to let you know what was going on would have been beneficial.

Incidentally, I noticed that you may wish to edit your location.

Kermie ;)

[A and C]

As someone who lossed a mate flying the standard CCT at north weald i would have liked to have beleaved that ALL the pilots in the area would have taken the lessons of this tragic event to heart but it would seem not if the post above is true.

My inital feeling on reading the start of this thread was "Just how can we clear these yak flying scum from the skys ?".
But i am just too close to the situation to make a cool and unimotional judgment on the flying safety of these people i will leave it to others who will hopefully file MOR,s if the situation warrents it as will i and let the CAA judge in the cool light of day.

I had hoped that for the good of all that leasons had been learnt but if they have not then i hope that the CAA legal department will take action and make a contribution to flight safety insted of going after flying instructors teaching EFATO on the evidence of a bunch of NIMBY,s.

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: A and C ]

[Southern Cross]

I expected you to be quicker off the mark on this thread A and C.

Since you have lost a friend, it is perhaps to be expected that you will take an emotive view of discussions on this topic, which seem to crop up periodically.

So I will forgive the "yak flying scum" :mad: slur even if others may not; even if your comment is incredibly insulting both to the memory of a deceased friend / family member and to a group of pilots who, collectively and individually, rate as one the most talented that I have seen flying in the General Aviation scene and who have entertained hundreds of thousands of people throughout Europe at a variety of airshows; and even if your reaction is just completely out of proportion to the occurence that propmpted the initial post ie that Stratton feels aggrieved because someone did not respond to him in a manner that he would have preferred.

Stratton - if I had a dollar for every time a complete stranger did not react to a greeting or question in the way I would have liked, operating my aircraft (yes, it is a Yak) would be a whole lot cheaper. Perhaps you might like to consider that formation aerobatics is a discipline that requires concentration and, just as you may not appreciate interruptions from strangers during a walk around, perhaps you were asking questions or issuing greetings at an inappropriate time - I don't know - there could be a 1000 completely innocent reasons whay you did not elicit the response you were hoping for, and not all of those reasons are due to the person of whom you were asking the question.

However, your assertion that the formation team operates with a "lack of regard for the safety of other users" is just wrong. If you are nervous of taking to the air when formating aircraft are in the vicinity, fine. But use of Mark One Eyeball, listening out, communicating clearly with the Air/Ground and if in doubt, asking what is happening will, as in most flying situations, help you to fly safely. I think you will find the team doing likewise.

[aerostar2]

Thanks Southern Cross

Puts me in mind of that old Dr John blues song, Cripple Creek:

“I don’t have to speak
She defends me
A drunkard’s dream
If I ever did see one…”


But to more serious matters, and speak I will because the posts above portray us as a bunch of aloof and arrogant hooligans whizzing around causing mayhem and believing ourselves a cut above everybody else. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is a longish post because I take this very seriously.

Stratton I’m sorry, but you must have caught us at a bad time. This in fact occurred last April, during our work up week, when things are sometimes a bit tense and we can get rather self absorbed. But apologies – being rude is not part of the game. If you want a chat, we’re always approachable in the bar after the debrief.

I’m in no position to talk about published procedures – that is the province of the airfield management. But we no longer do solo run and breaks (I’m talking about the AeroStars, not other NW based pilots) and if the circuit is active we split into a stream outside the zone and join downwind. This is actually more time consuming, no safer and more inconvenient for other traffic because the circuit gets clogged for longer, but it is what we have been asked to do. (Otherwise we can hold clear if there are just one or two a/c in the circuit, and R&B once they’re down.)

On a broader note, a lot of these issues arise because of the fundamental difficulty of mixing light GA traffic with formations of slightly higher performance aircraft. We take the view that this is our problem and we go to significant lengths – which other users will generally be unaware of – to minimise the impact of our activities. For example I can’t recall us ever forcing a go around, and often is the time we’ve sat on the cross runway, waiting to backtrack the active, because somebody has called downwind and we spend long minutes with CHT’s rising while s/he disappears towards Stapleford or Stansted before dragging in on an airliner final (sorry, but it happens and it’s bad flying.)

North Weald has, however, always been a home for warbird, formation and display flying – that’s what it set out to be when the Huttons revitalised it and set up the Squadron in the ‘80s. In a perfect world this would perhaps be promulgated in Pooley’s et al and, maybe with areas marked where it would be safe to hold for a couple of minutes when all this malarkey is going on until visitors can see and hear that the circuit is clear.

That is outside our domain, but if there is anything else we can do, such as letting other users know how we operate, please suggest it and I will respond.

A and C, we undergo levels of scrutiny by the CAA which you would not believe. We are watched closely and speak to them regularly during the season. The SRG know exactly what we do and how we do it, and quite rightly would not hesitate to pull our DA’s. Perhaps the fact that we get on well with them, and that just about every airshow organiser we have worked for has asked us back, might indicate that we are not completely useless after all.

Finally, last April’s tragic accident has been raised again. Please - we lost a dear friend as well, the subject has been exhausted twice on this forum, we’ve had an AAIB investigation and an inquest – can we leave it be?

Best

Garry

AeroStars home page (http://www.aerostars.co.uk)

[A and C]

Three people have died in this tragic event and the first post on this thread sujested that that the lesons of this accident had not been heeded ,my reaction was an expression of how i felt about this and an admision that i am not the person to be the judge of the flying standards of the yak brigade, however when i fly a high performance aircraft (such as an extra)in a CCT i try to remember what it was like to be a low houred PPL in a C150 or PA38 and fly acordingly.

I love to fly aerobatics but aircraft cannot be flown that way in close proximity to low time pilots and low performance aircraft ,they need the room to learn and it is the responsability of the experienced pilots to give them the space to do so.

My only gripe is with those who from the tone of the first post above seem to be reluctant to curb there need for thrills untill it is safe to do so.

Let us all for the sake of the memory of all three who died endevor to not repeat the events of that tragic day.