Area or Approach - decsisions decsisions!

[hbjonsson]

Long time lurker, first time poster :)

I can probably imagine that many of you are tired of answering these kind of questions, but hopefully not all of you!

The thing is, I am planning to start ATC school sometime 2012. There are two schools here both of which are privately run with state endorsements. One school trains you for a students license with a APR,APP,APS rating (including ADI and ADV *i think*) and the other school does ACR,ACP and ACS (plus the tower ratings). I have done a brickload of homework regarding both approach and area (read the 4444 several times plus other stuff I can get my hands on). From the research I could gather, going the AREA route may provide for a better chance of OJT afterwards.

The thing is that it is said that area can be/is much more difficult in some sense (especially the procedural sim) then approach, it is also considerably more expensive (100 - 150%) but again, if it leads to a job then that is a secondary issue.

What are the difficulty differences between approach and enroute when it comes to training? What kind of challenges does enroute-procedural deal with, vs approach-procedural? Is it true that enroute is harder? why?

I could honestly go either way, currently I´m planning to enroll in area. Somewhere I think I truly *want* to do Approach/Twr but I would still be as happy as a pig in sh*t with getting a job in enroute, so it may be "safer" to do that job wise, but unsafer finance/difficulty wise. What would you advise?

I realise the sim-exercises are much longer in area control, thus more chance to screw up?

Hope to get some solid-inside advice here, I would truly appreciate reading your experience from training in either field :)

-edit - title spell corrected

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<decsisions decsisions!>> One suspects that you are not in the UK so I think it would help responses if you said where you were so that local controllers could respond.

I know of no en-route procedural work in the UK and possibly none in Europe, radar having superceded procedural in many busy areas. I practiced the black art of procedural approach and en-route some 40 years ago and in those days I considered Approach procedural to be much easier than En-route.

Judging from your other comments I don't think you have too much experience of ATC so I strongly advise you to visit a local ATC unit to see what goes on.

Lastly, you shouldn't "screw-up" on any sim exercises if you have absorbed the training.

Good luck.

[hbjonsson]

Thanks for the responce.

I live in Iceland. I think 15 to 20 of the 30-35 of the simulator runs in basic training are procedural in both approach and area school. I´m not sure what other comments give me up as not having to much experience with ATC, I think i have more then the average person not employed in the field :). I have already made visits to all the relevant facilities, allthough it was years ago. Am currently trying to arrange some more. I´m trying soak up as much information as possible that could help me before entering training.

The "black-art" is extensively trained here, both in basic school and OJT while its only really used in the oceanic sectors.

Could you shed some light on what made area-procedural harder?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

OK.. My approach procedural work involved holding aircraft until they could commence an approach so it was quite simple. Area procedural, where I worked in Africa, meant doing the calculations on aircraft crossing times, using VOR radials and various other techniques to provide a separation service. In those days we had to calculate our own wind effect too, at various levels! Great fun, but much easier on radar.

Oh yea, I'd forgotten about Oceanic. Sorry.

[hbjonsson]

I see. So the added difficulty about area procedural lies more in added position calculations in the mix? The seperation problems other then that about the same?

I can picture approach being easier in that respect where you might only have to work out some initial radials to have the inbounds on and then keep them vertically seperated in the hold and also seperated from departures ofcourse.

What are some of the typical problems with area? Would love to hear some rules of thumb, tips or techniques if you have them.

Thanks again!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<The seperation problems other then that about the same?>>

Separation may be similar, but with en-route I had to calculate the times aircraft would cross beacons, etc., then base separation on those times and the wind..

<<I can picture approach being easier in that respect where you might only have to work out some initial radials to have the inbounds on and then keep them vertically seperated in the hold and also seperated from departures ofcourse.>>

Approach was a lot easier. ACC handed them over approaching the hold so it was a matter of issuing an EAT, if necessary, and then laddering the stack down.

It's too long ago for me to remember the various rules of thumb. Maybe someone else will help..

[Plazbot]

Area procedural is smoke and mirrors. Entirely a pain in the arse.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I suppose it depends on who you're sitting with, Plazbot! Personally, I enjoyed it very much and the skills learned in those early years proved beneficial throughout my career. Nobody marks strips like a Procedural Controller!!

[hbjonsson]

what advice do you have for an ab-inition in procedural? Anything I can do before starting training in order to better prepare for whats to come?

[cleo]

Thread drift

Plazbot - Iceland provides the smoke and NATS / IAA and a few other nations provide the mirrors without which the North Atlantic would grind to a halt! I suspect that the Pacific has much the same problem - there are not many places to anchor radar heads in an expanse of water making area procedural a necessary evil. :p One day computers will fill in the bits but for now let's hear it for area procedural control :D:D:D

For our Icelandic friend's benefit its a case of horses for courses. You have to visit each discipline and see how you feel you would fit. Does Iceland still send folks to Oklahoma? (I'm old so maybe its changed since my last visit to Reykjavik Centre) :\

[hbjonsson]

These days you enroll in a basic course which gives you a students licence. After that you have to get selected for OJT (based on how you did in your basic training). All of it takes place locally as far as I know.

Would really love to hear some stories about both sides (app/area) :)
I have a pretty good idea about what the approach side is like, but I run into more walls getting an insight into the area (procedural).

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

But surely, Iceland domestic is all radar so you woudn't have to do procedural unless you worked on the ocean?

[hbjonsson]

Well you have to do the basic training for a students licence and half of that is procedural, so I have to learn it one way or the other. I think most area controllers start in the North and West Sectors which are oceanic.

They also use the term "procedurally controlled, radar assisted" so the focus is just as much on strips as radar I think.

[Plazbot]

Not that I know the Atlantic specific game but in Oceanc procedural you are going to be pretty mimited in how your day to day controlling happens. 1000 feet and some time based standards will be the basics, 10 or 15 minutes depending. You will have a few distance based standards as well depending on what gear the aircraft have and how accurately they navigate. The Ocanic I worked we had 50nm for RNP approved aircraft, 10 minutes for certain others and 15 minutes for the rest. Very friggn tedious setting up mach numbers to satisfy some reduced time standards on HF radio that is for sure.

The non Oceanc procedural was a little less restrictive wth greatly reduced distance standards using DME/VOR/NDB type track/distance standards and some fairly 'close' nav gear based GPS/RNAV standards. Like I said, all smoke and mirors as you could just keep applying various standards until you proved they were missing each other. You will generally have a 'bag of tricks' that you use day to day however for the airspace you are using. How deep that bag is depends on how interested you are:cool: You potentially run aircraft far closer procedurally than on Radar. I gave climb procedurally to an aircraft that had reported outside a lateral separation area and they queried me as they could see the traffic and it was 'closer than 5 miles'.:zzz:

Now for area Radar

5nm
1000ft

[hbjonsson]

Thanks much for the reply! I believe the basic school teaches a domestic sector, so I wont need to dive into the oceanic stuff until OJT. Is there a thread somewhere or a page with this bag of tricks? (that are non sector specifc)