More friends needed

[pil]

Just thought I'd have a poke on the forum to see if anyone has any experience of group ownership. I've notice a few people before having a chat about it, you know with the benefits of cheap flying 'n' stuff, but is this really the case. I had a quick shufties on the flyer website and for a (ahem!) modest investment, you can rack up the hours for about half the normal wet rate. Sounds nice, however, how do these things get organised and what about all the legal gubbings that need to be done on a regular basis.
Has anyone in the wonderful world of pprune ever entered into or is currently involved in group ownership. If so, I would appreciate any worldly wisdom you possess.

Oh, and another thing, has anyone ever seen anything to do with these guys www.gaac.co.uk (http://www.gaac.co.uk) (hopefully this link works). Funny looking bunch.

And finally, <nerd mode on> I noticed a bugette in the search page. Anyone interested <nerd mode off>


ithankyouall

[PPRuNe Dispatcher]

I'm interested in the search page bugette - please email me details! [email protected]

---PPRuNe Dispatcher

[Ace Rimmer]

The GAAC are a can of offshoot organisation from AOPA UK although I'm not sure they are directly related apart from a few individuals who are active in both organisations. Actually, the Ace take on the situation is that they are at least some response to the threat by the collected ranks of NIMBYS, whingers and Swampys who would have all airfields with the exception of the ones that the aforesaid Greenys use to go on hols. As such they are worthy of the support of anybody who has an interest in being able to go flying for business or pleasure.
Men this is no drill. Here is the deal we have a Transport Minister who ranks aviation so low on his list of priorities that he is yet to name his aviation minister some weeks after the new administration has begun (and this is how interested they are in the country's most valuble industries (ie air transport) how interested do you think they'll be in GA? Answer not a lot - this is something for local government say Tony's cronies. And local government? They have a long track record of approving planning permission to convert airfields into housing estates, car parks or massive garden centres. If you think GA is safe in their hands think again. Damn good thing somebody is doing something to counter the threat.

[Rod1]

Pil,

Been involved in groups and outright ownership. Groups can work very well or thay can be a millstone.

The first and most important thing is to decide on the aim of the group. I joined a large group of 11 people very soon after passing my PPL. The aim of this group was to fly as cheaply as possible, and because the standing costs were split so many ways and the risk of a major bill was also split, it worked very well. I was able to use the aircraft for my IMC and availability was much better than a club machine. The maintenance on the aircraft was high and the group was run by three people who had to keep it all together. We wrote a set of group rules, but I think there are now a number of templates for this on the web. I eventually left after about five years because I needed access to a more capable aircraft, and better availability.

If we look at the financial case for a group it looks something like this.

Based on a typical CofA group aircraft and averaged over a year the fixed costs look like this.

Insurance £1500
Hargarage £2000
Maintenance £2500

Total £6000

So if you share the aircraft with one other person you will save an average of £3000 per year. If you share with 10 then you save less then 5400 because of increased maintenance, but still a substantial amount. When I started I was struggling to afford to fly so I went for the big group, as things improved I went for the two people option, with better availability. The down side of this is that if the engine failed, the group would be looking at a typical bill of about £8000, which will be split two ways, which is much better than outright ownership, but would still hurt most of us!

The big variable in the above numbers is the maintenance costs. If you get a group with good mechanical sympathy it can make a surprising difference to the amount of things, which come of in people’s hands, and hence the amount paid out. Big groups suffer more from this than small ones.

The ideal partner is someone who never fly’s the aircraft, pays all bills on time, and always turns up to wash it!

On a more cautionary note, my syndicate partner recently persuaded me to allow a friend of his to fly the aircraft, with him, to a big flyin in Germany. The friend crashed the aircraft, an AA5B, in Belgium. The initial estimate is £11500 of damage, the aircraft has been languishing in the back of a hanger for 4 weeks, and although the insurance company has agreed to pay up, this is not going to be a good summer!!

Hope the above is helpful.

Rod

[Fuji Abound]

I think all the points Rod1 makes are very sound.

I would add the following thoughts.

I suspect unscheduled maintenance (the nasty surprises) will depend greatly on the type and age of the aircraft. If you join a group operating something less usual and older expect large bills, and be even more carfeul to ensure it is in good condition before you join. Similarly if it is IFR capable, one has to suspect maintaining it in this condition, if that is the group's intention, will add to the cost. Finally think very hard about whether the group is professionally operated. Of course I do not mean someone is paid, but that there is a solid committee with agreed responsibilities. It is surprising just how much is involved - but getting this part right adds to safety, ensures maintenance is taken care of on time and with minimium delay, bills are paid, etc., etc. Ensure the group has some minimium currency requirements - this will help to ensure the aircraft is correctly operated which in turn will impact favourably on costs! Lastly, what about the engine fund / prop. fund - is it on schedule? A fund with an under provision or worse, no fund at all, will result in a very unpleasant surprise at some point for the members!

[This message has been edited by Fuji Abound (edited 03 July 2001).]

[Flyswift]

Ummm good topic. Can I be slightly rude and ask another question.

I have noted that there are WEB pages telling us all how to go about Group Ownership, but alas I can't find any. Does anyone know where I can get info on Starting or Joining a group. Even if you know of any good books on the matter, that would be a great help.

Cheers

FS
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/aircraft/spitfire.gif

edited for tie-pose...

[This message has been edited by Flyswift (edited 03 July 2001).]

[AC-DC]

Flyswift
I might consider the selling of ½ a share or 2/3 in mine. It is an Elstree based fast complex single. If you are interested email to [email protected]

[Yogi-Bear]

Pilot magazine ran some articles in recent times on Group formation, etc. Do a trawl on their site: - www.pilotweb.co.uk/ (http://www.pilotweb.co.uk/) and order copies. :)

[stiknruda]

Chaps/chapesses

the place to go for info on group ownership is the PFA

www.pfa.org.uk (http://www.pfa.org.uk)

Stik

[CessnaEng]

We work on higher figures than those quoted earlier.

Insurance £1500
Parking £1500
Annual £2500
500 hr inspect £500
unsched maint £1500

However this year the unsched bit has just been blown to pot - new cylinder £1200 new transponder £1200

We operate a C172 on Private CofA from Shoreham.

[barbox]

I have nothing but postitive comments about group flying.

I have owned a 1/10th share in a Slingsby T67 that cost less than £3k to buy, £34 per month and £34 per hr (tacho hr,,,,, not Hobbs hr,,,,,better value) and sold the share at a profit.

I now own a 1/5th share in an AA5, cost £5k, £34 per tacho hr and £60 per month.

Monthly charges pay for hangerage/routine maintenance/insurance, flying hr rates include fuel and engine fund etc.

When compared against club hiring costs just NO comparison and far less regulations.

Depends of course on how many hrs per yr you wish to fly,,,,,,,,!.

Of course you could end up with pratts like Mr Tiger_Moth who could cock up the relationship in a group if you are not careful!.

[The man formerly known as]

Pil,

Good topic.

I've been in two groups and the thing I will say is decide what you want before you join a group. I was lured by £40/ Month and £40/hour. When I worked it out a hundred hours over 2 years actually cost £70/hour. There's no point in buying in and then flying 5 hours per year, or 10 or maybe even 20. Some people in the groups I've been in have never flown a single hour in it. On the other hand if you intend flying 100-200 hours per year a group (or even your own ac) could save money.

I now tend to rent aircraft and do about 40 hours a year, its a bit more per hour but when you squawk the Horizon/DI/radio stack etc you know someone else is paying that bill (and its never less than £1,000 a go is it?). The availablity is usually good and if one ac breaks before your detail you can generally then get into the next one in the line and do your detail. When you own an ac and it goes tech you don't fancy renting one.

This of course depends on there being a good school with a good range of AC to rent nearby.

Aircraft I would go into a group on again are the ones you can't easily hire , the Yaks, Pitts, Tiger moths etc. But if I could hire them I would.

Someone once said,'If it Flies, floats or Fu*** its cheaper to rent it'.After 10 years of flying I am beginning to realise the wisdom of these words.

[BIGJ91]

I've belonged to a group for the past six years and I've found it wholly beneficial to my experience of flying. I'm now the registered trustee so even get a free copy of GASIL!!
OK the things to watch for. Don't jump in on the promise of cheap flying alone. In our C150 group I reckon you need to fly at least 18 hours a year to even begin to see a financial benefit- that's comparing our rates of £45 per month £30 per hour with the cheapest 150 rentals of £60 per hour. If you only fly once a month each hour costs £75. On the other hand that extra twenty minutes enjoying the evening calm after a day of flying only costs a tenner. Though most of our members spend a good time longer in the aircraft than they pay for as a result of sharing which is rarer for people who merely rent an aircraft
You need to ensure that the other members are people who you can get along with and whose flying is compatible with yours. three hour builders in a group and you'll never get near the aircraft.
A lot of the advantages are not financial, there is a sense of ownership- though you probably won't get that in a group of 20- In a friendly cooperative group you shoul get less of "I booked it at twelve and it's not my fault the fog's only just lifted." and more of "Where were you thinking of going- why don't we go together and get to somewhere a bit further afield. The best groups IMHO are those in which the members genuinely want to encourage one another to fly and take a healthy interest in each others flying (In our group the person I most often fly with and I give each other marks out of ten for our landings)

Make sure you're happy that the group contains people you trust and no cowboys who could leave you with a nasty liability if they go and do something daft that voids the insurance. And check carefully the condition of the aircraft and the finances of the group- If a group you are considering is unhelpful or cagey about any of those then walk away- there are plenty of others.

If you want any more do e-mail

[email protected]

[I have control]

For anyone in a group I can really recommend www.aircraftclubs.com (http://www.aircraftclubs.com)

It's an on-line booking system developed for aircraft clubs/groups and it works like a dream. We've got a lot of active group members and it makes everything really efficient and clear.

[Grandad Flyer]

I joined a group shortly after doing my PPL, mainly to hours build. Worked out very well. Unfortunately later on the members became complacent. It was obvious that some work needed to be done in order for the aircraft to avoid a major job the following year, but the members refused to do anything. I left, knowing that there would be a big bill to come, and this did happen.
However, I instigated the purchase of another aircraft and formed a group around that. I would say that you need a mixture of people in the group, it helps to allocate people with certain responsibilities (secretary, maintenance, paperwork, etc.).
I'd also say its much easier than you think and can be alot of fun, particularly with a PFA aircraft.
If anyone wants to e-mail me for more info, feel free.
We have a "rule book" and info pack that all new members get and I can explain a bit more about how we charge things, etc.