Mode S and the Netherlands - difference between TMZ and everywhere else?

[realflash]

This AIC has left me confused:

http://www.eurocontrol.int/msa/gallery/content/public/documents/EH-eAIC-08-07-A-en-GB.pdf

I quote:
"For VFR-flights with helicopters and aeroplanes an active mode-S SSR transponder is already mandatory in the Amsterdam FIR, except for airspace class G below 1200 ft AMSL."

So most of it. Since the TMZs all start at 1200 ft, what is the difference between flight in a TMZ (where a mode-S transponder is mandatory, and you would have to be above 1200ft to be in it) and flight outside a TMZ (where a mode-S transponder is mandatory due to the rule above). What have I missed? What is the point of the TMZ?

[bookworm]

For VFR-flights with helicopters and aeroplanes

Read on...

The State Secretary of Transport decided a few years ago to delay the mandatory use of a mode-S SSR transponder for non-motorised aircraft. For gliders, sailplanes, hang- and paragliders and balloons the use of a mode-S SSR transponder is mandatory as of June 5th 2008 for flights in transponder mandatory airspace.

So the TMZs are only relevant to unpowered aircraft.

[Jhieminga]

Another thing that isn't very clear from the start is that if you have a mode-S transponder, you need to have it switched on! That includes the airspace below 1200 ft.

We had a silly situation with a couple of SRZs around GA fields and below a TMA but that has all been resolved now, so just switch the thing on and don't think about it anymore (if you're in a powered aircraft).

[gpn01]

Another thing that isn't very clear from the start is that if you have a mode-S transponder, you need to have it switched on! That includes the airspace below 1200 ft.

We had a silly situation with a couple of SRZs around GA fields and below a TMA but that has all been resolved now, so just switch the thing on and don't think about it anymore (if you're in a powered aircraft).

Is the rumour true that if you're flying a glider below 1200' then it's mandatory to have Mode-S fitted and also mandatory to have it switched off?

[BackPacker]

If you're flying a glider below 1200' then you have other things to worry about than whether your transponder should be on or not. Like finding a field to land in.

But seriously...

Up until June 10th we had the "SRZ Schiphol" which forced you to turn off the transponder underneath the Schiphol TMA 1 because the returns generated too much clutter on the radar scopes. This problem has been fixed, the SRZ Schiphol is no longer and the situation is very, very simple: If you have a transponder, you need to have it switched on when in-flight. The only exception I know of is a glider winch launch, where you are kindly asked to only activate the transponder once you are finished with the launch.

If you don't have a transponder you are restricted to the airspace below 1200' and (if non-powered) a few TFZs around various glider sites.

But the SRZ Schiphol has lead to some silly rumours and funny situations indeed. It was not a proud moment for us when the whole mess started.

[TractorBoy]

And don't forget your fitted ELT otherwise you won't be allowed to cross the Dutch FIR in the first place. :ugh:

[Zulu Alpha]

Perhaps you can help, I would like to fly to Lelystad at the end of August. I only have a Mode C transponder. I also only have a portable ELT.

Is there a way that I can fly there. My aircraft is an LAA single seater and I'm flying there to compete in the Dutch National aerobatic comp.

From the document it seems that I need to keep below 1200 ft, which would prevent me doing aerobatics when I got there.
Also, I would suspect that the requirement for gliders on the winch to switch off mode S might also apply to aerobatics, but nothing is mentioned.

Thanks

ZA

[BackPacker]

Mmm. Good point. Although it's fairly easy and perfectly safe to reach Lelystad by keeping below 1200', it's a bit harder to do aerobatics below that altitude.

AFAIK there's no requirement to turn the transponder off during aerobatics so you'd have to get some sort of exemption from the authorities to enter the box. (Which is actually located in a SRZ in class A airspace...)

I would start here: Homepage - OPS help desk LVNL (http://www.lvnl-ohd.nl/) (the Dutch NATS) but maybe they're going to refer you to the IVW (the Dutch CAA).

Further, from what I understand, the ELT requirement is not actively enforced, so I wouldn't worry about that.

Anyway, I'll be competing at that event too. Hope to see you there!

===============

Edit: found some more info on this here: Integrated Aeronautical Information Package the Netherlands (http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/aim/100422-100603/eAIP/html/index-en-GB.html) including a link to an exemption form.

Edit 2: AZ, the organizers of the DONAC will actually request a SRZ for the competition, covering the box and the hold. You may want to get in touch with the organization early on and inform them about your problem. Perhaps they can work something out at the same time.

[Fuji Abound]

Sorry to slightly side track the thread but I also have to go to Lelystad in July.

As Backpacker is on thread (but please anyone else do comment) any information about Lelystad would be of interest. I am there on business and will be collected at the airport so I am not worried about that aspect.

Also, subject to weather of course, I will go VFR - if not IFR in which case the next part of my post is academic.

Anyone like to suggest a routing from say Calais to Lelystad and anything in particular to avoid please.

[BackPacker]

Routing from the southwest would typically be DVR-KOK (or Calais-KOK), COA through the Ostende TMA (very good at giving transits as long as you avoid the Ostende arrivals/departures) then visual via, for instance, the Moerdijkbrug (three big bridges just south of Dordrecht), then Woerden, Hilversum, Huizen to Bravo. Make sure to drop down below 1500' before you get underneath the Schiphol TMA and watch out for the tall TV tower in Hilversum. Easy really, with lots of visual clues. Waterways, lakes and such are the easiest to recognise.

Lelystad has a mandatory entry point Bravo 700' and you have to call '2 minutes to Bravo'. From there fly due north along the smallest of the two roads, join downwind at Sierra, land, vacate, taxi to the tower and pay the relatively high landing fee. Easy. It's A/G only and can get very busy on weekends.

Lelystad can only be used IFR outside UDP (or outside AD OP HR, I don't remember exactly) and you'd have to pay the A/G people to work overtime. Normally not an option.

[Zulu Alpha]

I Just got this reply from the OPS helpdesk

On the route to Lelystad you have to stay below 1200ft, it is not possitble to obtain exemption to go above 1200ft without mode S.
In the VFR area Lelystad you can compete in the aerobatics competition blw 3500ft.


So I will plan accordingly.

Thanks for the help.

ZA

[BackPacker]

Well done.

FYI the 3500' in the VFR area Lelystad coincides with the top of the box and the bottom of class A airspace (or rather the top of the SRZ that's been carved out of the class A airspace, which extends from 1500' upwards).

[TractorBoy]

Further, from what I understand, the ELT requirement is not actively enforced, so I wouldn't worry about that.


So its OK because a legal requirement isn't actively enforced. Can I use that in a court of law, please ? :eek:

[realflash]

OK, thanks for that clarification. The reason was I wanted to fly VFR into Schipol in a mode C only club plane. It seems then that I could only do that if I was able to get all the way there via only class G airspace, and if I stayed below 1200'. Not having any dutch charts (haven't got that far in my planning), I don't know if that's realistic (I assume not). If not is that possible into Hilversum or Lelystad instead? Or will I simply have to find a different aircraft?

Staying below 1200' sounds like a pain in the bum. I have no IR.

[BackPacker]

You won't be able to fly into Schiphol, or any other controlled airfield for that matter, without mode-S, as mode-S is mandatory in a CTR (class C airspace).

But uncontrolled fields like Lelystad and Hilversum can be reached easily by way of class G airspace only, and by staying below 1200'. In fact, when flying in the west of the Netherlands, you are limited to altitudes below 1500' anyway due to the Schiphol TMA which is class A and starts at 1500'. And remember that this bit of the Netherlands is below sea level so there's not a lot of high ground to worry about. Just the occasional tall TV tower like the ones near Hilversum and Lopik.

Even with mode-S, Schiphol would be very expensive. Expect not much change from 300 euros after you've paid for landing, ATC and handling. Hilversum or Lelystad are much better options in this respect. And even Rotterdam will be much cheaper.

[Jhieminga]

Flying to Lelystad below 1200 feet is no problem. If you're happy with a cross country flight at that altitude then you should have no problems, there are only two really tall towers that you might encounter and the elevation stays below 50 feet all the way. Hilversum is cheaper than Lelystad I think but it is a small grass airfield with some strategically placed trees. Make sure that you're happy flying in and out of fields like that and that the aircraft will fit in there, runway length-wise. Otherwise Lelystad is the better option. You might also consider Midden-Zeeland (you'll pass it anyway if you cross the border from Belgium near the coast).

[dublinpilot]

the situation is very, very simple: If you have a transponder, you need to have it switched on when in-flight.

Unless it's mode A or mode C which the use of is specifically prohibited in the Amsterdam FIR. Didn't stop Dutch militiary and Amsterdam info asking us to switch it on on various occasions last weekend (and to leave off the previous weekend)!

As for flying 1200ft, I went along the coast until Bergen and then east, and at 1150ft it seems a lot higher! The ground is very flat and there is little to hit apart from other aircraft! Do be careful to avoid overlying towns at that altitude though.

dp

[IO540]

Lelystad has mysterious (not to the locals I am sure) self service avgas machines and the highest fuel price I have ever paid apart from my trip to Turkey in 2009.

[bern444]

Higher than £1.98 at Fairoaks?

[Steve N]

See this thread for recent experiences:

Light Aircraft Association :: View topic - Flying over Netherlands (http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=2036)

Steve

[seat 0A]

Avgas in Lelystad will cost you 2,53 euros per litre at the moment.
Flying over The Netherlands is very nice at 500 ft. So don`t worry about staying below 1200.

[realflash]

That's all useful, thanks all! I will plan for one of the other two.

[Fuji Abound]

£2.10 a litre, that is almost the same as a good bottle of wine. :)

That is over £200 an hour flat out. :} or a little over a £1 a mile or 33p a minute.

[cessnapete]

Flew to Essen via Midden Zeeland last week VFR in a/c with only mode C. We kept out of controlled airspace and had flight following with Dutch Mil the whole route.
We were not restricted to 1200ft or less and had no problems without mode S.

[BackPacker]

had flight following with Dutch Mil the whole route

Actually Dutch Mil is greatly understaffed at the moment. We've had a presentation of them at our club which essentially came down to two things:
- If you don't need any information from us, don't call us but just monitor the frequency. Pertinent info like the QNH will be broadcast regularly.
- If you do need us we're there but don't expect anything more than just a flight information service. Yes, we do have radar but don't expect any traffic warnings or deconfliction advice.

Furthermore, it regularly happens that a single Dutch Mil controller is working multiple frequencies at the same time. Not just Dutch Mil Info (132.35) but also VHF frequencies for higher airspace with IFR traffic, and a bunch of UHF military frequencies.

They're working on a project right now that's supposed to provide an ATIS-like service for the Dutch FIR with the QNH and some other important information, like which military CTRs are active and not, and thus require a clearance to cross or not. Thus reducing the requests for that sort of information even less. All to clear up their frequencies for those pilots that actually need something from Dutch Mil.

I don't know if it was your intention to suggest so, but "flight following" is a strictly defined concept (in the US) and Dutch Mil Info is nowhere near able to provide a similar service at the moment.