Nearly "free" flying!

[pistongone]

anyone fancy a cheap blast at the weekend? I am looking for some people to cost share a flight from Lydd in a 172 or pa28,it works out at £20/hr in the 28 if 4up! So a quick LFAT or LFAC is yours for about £20.00!!if you bring another friend as my girlfriend insists on taking up one of the back pews!

[Aussie Andy]

Sounds great but:

a) I live too far from Lydd;

b) I weigh too much - so would be max three in a PA28 if I come; and

c) Have you see the forecast? Take a look at <a href="http://129.13.102.67/wz/pics/brack1a.gif" target="_blank">http://129.13.102.67/wz/pics/brack1a.gif</a> just now which is showing an occluded front on us midday-ish Saturday!

Here's hoping there wrong!

Andy <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[SteveR]

Hmmmm. Isn't this dangerously close to advertising for cost sharers? (Therefore, illegal)

Gawd, I'm such an old fart......

Steve R

[dublinpilot]

Advertising for cost sharer's is illegal??? Must have missed that bit when studying for airlaw!!!

[Aussie Andy]

No way - cost sharing is perfectly legal, doh!

[Evo7]

[quote]. .c) Have you see the forecast? Take a look at <a href="http://129.13.102.67/wz/pics/brack1a.gif" target="_blank">http://129.13.102.67/wz/pics/brack1a.gif</a> just now which is showing an occluded front on us midday-ish Saturday!. .<hr></blockquote>

Looks at diary. Sees a lesson booked for midday Saturday. Bangs head on wall. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> :)

BTW, cost-sharing is fine as long as everybody pays the same. If three pax cost-shared and the pilot flew for free, then that's illegal...

[You want it when?]

Cost Sharing is fine - providing that the PIC contributes a fair monetry share. ie. in this case 1/4. Presumable the cad won't be charging his girlfriend or she might get ideas (and that thread belongs in JB)

[Aussie Andy]

Umm, cost sharings fine - even if the person sharing costs pays 100% of the costs... as long as they don't pay you I think!

Andy

[distaff_beancounter]

I don't charge my passengers anything, I just let them buy the lunch, but then I do know all the mist expensive restautants in Le Touquet! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[SlipSlider]

My understanding is that sharing of costs is perfectly legal, providing the P1's share is not less than any other person on board. The debate then is "what are the costs?". If hiring, its simple - but when a/c is owned, how do you factor in fixed costs such as hangarage, insurance etc? Or should they be ignored, and only the direct operating costs factored in? At least that would clearly demonstrate no profit motive, and its what I do in practice.

SteveR's point was (I think) about advertising, not sharing. As I recall some time ago when the rules were relaxed there were published guidelines that said it was OK to "advertise" within the aviation comunity, such as on the flying club notice-board (and I guess PPRune is an internet equivalent). Posting an ad in the local paper would clearly not be acceptable!

Slip

[pistongone]

Thanx for the reply's,. .as for cost-sharing its simple!I pay and you can get the beers in!! or if its an over night cost sharing on hotel rooms isnt illegal!!ETC ETC!!. .One thing i have learned about the weather is that its NEVER as forecast!!!And Lydd seems to have a good spot on the coast for holes in the weather!! Lets face it an hour in Biggles while waiting for a hole to shoot over(25 mins airborne last week!!) doesnt seem to bad to me!!

[SteveR]

Yep, it was the advertising bit I was/am worried about. Like all things aviation it's about line drawing, and I reckon that posting to an international anonymous forum falls the wrong side of it.

On the other thing, it's the *direct* costs of the flight which can be shared. A/c hire, fuel used, landing fees, batteries in the GPS, 3 mms of chinagraph pencil. Hangarage, insurance, epaulette ironing fees cannot be shared (you'd be paying these costs even if you didn't fly). If I remember correctly, the pilot has to pay a minimum of 25% of the direct costs as well - so in a six seater the other 5 are only allowed to contribute 15% each of the direct costs.

Here's one: If you get the weather on Saturday (extremely unlikely, even though I haven't booked our a/c, which normally ensure CAVOK), are you going to keep the fuel drawback yourself? I reckon, even if you have to wait a few weeks, this should count against the direct costs. In our machine, I can get 66 fuel drawback refunded, and to and from L2K for about 60 quid rental + 10 quid landing. Thus the trip costs 70 quid, with a 66 quid refund - the direct cost is 4 pounds (a quid each)!!!!!!

SteveR

[Don D Cake]

Guess who's plodding his way through air law at the moment.....Here's the relevant section of the ANO 2000, make of it what you will, especially part bb) which answers Andy's comment about the proportion of costs that can be shared <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> I think it means the pilot has to put an equal share in <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

(ii)

(aa) no more than 4 persons (including the pilot) are carried on such a flight;

(bb) the proportion which such contribution bears to the total direct costs of the flight shall not exceed the proportion which the number of persons carried on the flight (excluding the pilot) bears to the number of persons carried on the flight (including the pilot);

(cc) no information concerning the flight shall have been published or advertised prior to the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over shall be members of that flying club; and

(dd) no person acting as a pilot on such a flight shall be employed as a pilot by or be a party to a contract for the provision of services as a pilot with the operator of the aircraft being flown on the flight.

I think we have to be pragmatic about this though. If you:

a) advertise in your local paper "local flights, £35 each for one hour for three people" and you're paying £105 ph for aircraft hire, you're going to get done.

b) as a one off, have a couple of mates saying "please, please, please take us flying for an hour, we'll pay" no one's realistically going to know who paid how much towards the a/c hire are they?

[SteveR]

Don D Cake: Thanks for that.

Strewth!! I seem to have remembered some air law!!

SteveR

[Aussie Andy]

Don D Cake - thanks for that! It appears I have been labouring under the wrong impression, and I think I was advised this by someone who ought to know better, never mind! Anyway, I haven't yet charged anyone more than their share (he hastily adds!)

So, SteveR, how much does 3 mms of chinagraph pencil cost then!? <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

. .Andy <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[pistongone]

Thanx for all the input,but i really was looking for a few lads to go to france or EBOS even,and as to the legalities of this i think it would be a case of i pay for the flight and the others can pay for my taxy home :) and i live in central london,so that should even things out me thinks!! :) :) :)

[DVR6K]

I think if it's a question of taking mates up, cost sharing isn't gonna be a problem no matter . .who pays or how you go about it even if they fork out for all of it coz they want to do it desperately or something (example given by someone earlier I think.)

The rules are there surely to stop people advertising in the paper and ripping people off and abusing their PPL.

That's not to say the rules are not to be adhered to at all times of course...

Phew.

[FlyingForFun]

And also, SteveR, I'd argue that epaulette ironing is a direct cost of the flight. If you weren't flying, you'd have to be very sad to be wearing your epaulettes around the house, and so presumably they wouldn't need ironing.

:) :) :)

FFF. .----------

[djk]

ironing? do people still do that? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[DVR6K]

What's wrong with wondering around with epaulettes on? I sometimes walk around naked with only my stripes sellotaped onto my shoulders in my flat. Girlfriend loves it.

Sorry, think I might have the wrong forum...

[Evo7]

:) :) :)

[SteveR]

[quote]... to be wearing your epaulettes around the house, and so presumably they wouldn't need ironing<hr></blockquote>

Have you no standards?!?

Next, you'll be telling me that you don't do a thorough walk around of your car before going down to the shops, or do weight calculations before running the washing machine. Tsk!

SteveR

[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: SteveR ]</p>

[englishal]

Its simple, when I take my mates flying, I pay for it all, then I charge them for the lift to the airport....which coincidentally always equals about the cost of the flight !....

As far as advertising goes, so long as the PIC "intends" to make the flight then there is no harm in asking if anyone else wants to go or not....

[CaptAirProx]

Plus you can't cost share in anything more than a four seater. Says somewhere in the ANO. Never sure what to do in a PA34 or similar. Just don't shout about it!

[DOC.400]

I usually pay for the flying while my pax pick up the landing fees and keep me fed and watered, especially the armchair beer in the club at the end of the day!

DOC