What's required to get aTMG rating on a PPL?

[Okavango]

What is required to get a TMG rating added to a PPL? Is there any formal training or flight test requirement? I understand that once this is gained TMG's can be used for revalidation of the PPL and also up to 30hrs toward CPL issue requirements? I haven't heard of many using TMG's for hour building and assume it's because of the 30hr restriction, though if it's not prohibitive in cost to get the rating, it seems like worthwhile experience to have in any case.

[tinpilot]

Pass a skills test with a CAA rated TMG examiner
- or -
conversion training to an acceptable standard with an NPPL SLMG instructor, cheque to NPPL people for an NPPL with SLMG rating & then another cheque to the CAA to add a TMG rating to your PPL (assuming you have 75+ hours total time in SEP & TMG).

The latter sounds convoluted and expensive, but bear in mind that the training to safe standard should be the same in both cases and the CAA fees are (I think) the same either way. So either you pay a TMG examiner to test you or you pay the NPPL for a license you immediately convert to a TMG rating.

I think that pretty much all TMGs are taildraggers so, with the right instructor, you can add a tailwheel rating to your PPL at the same time.

sources:
LASORS F5
NPPL cross crediting allowances (http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/PDFs/NPPL%20XC%20REV%2008.pdf) 3.1

[Okavango]

Thanks. What does the Skills Test entail (in activity and cost)? Is it the same as the PPL skills test?

[tinpilot]

Sorry, no idea - I did the NPPL SLMG route, back when TMG examiners were as rare as hen's teeth.

I can't believe that they would make you do a complete navex, that would surely be unecessary for a qualified pilot. The NPPL SLMG syllabus has a section on SLMG/TMG specific exercises, section 5 of this document (http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/PDFs/Syllabus/NPPL%20SLMG%20SYLLABUS%20v4%2017%20Feb%2010.pdf), that covers the main points; I would imagine the CAA TMG test covers the same areas plus the usual circuits, field landing, EFATO stuff.

The only time I flew with a TMG examiner was when I managed to let my SEP & TMG ratings expire, and had to revalidate both by proficiency check. He was a very nice chap, had ratings for this, that and the other and eye wateringly expensive fees to match.

My knowledge is very limited, but I don't know of anywhere that offers actual TMG training. Oxfordshire Sport Flying (http://www.enstoneaerodrome.co.uk/aboutus.htm) are well known SLMG specialists, many of the larger gliding clubs can offer SLMG training, I would be interested to hear of a powered school/club that has TMG instructors, examiners & aircraft.

[bambuko]

You can also try:
The Motorglider Club (http://www.motorgliderclub.co.uk)

Chris

[blagger]

I'm a SEP and TMG rated FI with a JAR CPL - used to have the old SLMG bit on my UK PPL. Just read this and got me thinking, I presume I am right in thinking that as a TMG FI that this covers me to do 'SLMG' things for NPPL instructional purposes as well?

[shortstripper]

If you have an old UK PPL it may have an SLMG attached. If so, all you then have to do is have a check flight to "unfreeze" it, then send a cheque to the CAA to have it automatically made into a TMG (providing you have 75 hours PIC)

SS

[Okavango]

Thanks again. The CAA scheme of charges state £49 for grant of a NPPL and £84 for inclusion or variation of an additional aeroplane class or type rating. Is this all that is requred - or do I have to go to the NPPL people (and how are they different to the CAA)?

[Whopity]

What does the Skills Test entail (in activity and cost)? Is it the same as the PPL skills test? No; its the same as the SEP Class Rating Skill Test about 1 hour and around £80. Content in SRG1157 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1157.pdf) Unlike the SLMG Skill Test, you don't even have to stop and restart the engine in flight. The NPPL is a different licence and fees may not be the same as adding a rating to a UK or JAA licence.
all you then have to do is have a check flight to "unfreeze" itNot according to the latest ANO Art 67. How do you obtain a C of R without a Test? A C of R based upon experience can only be issued to the holder of a valid rating with the relevant experience! The Exemption to operate an SLMG without a C of R was withdrawn in June 2009! (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=3109)
67.—(1) This article applies to—
(a) JAR-FCL licences;
(b) United Kingdom licences for which there are JAR-FCL equivalents; and
(c) United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot’s Licences.
(2) The holder of a licence to which this article applies is not entitled to exercise the privileges of an aircraft rating specified in Section 1 of Part B of Schedule 7 which is included in the licence on a flight unless—
(a) the licence has a certificate of revalidation for the rating;
(b) the certificate is appropriate, issued and valid in accordance with Section 2 of Part C of Schedule 7;
To quote from the CAA Examiners Standardisation meeting Oct 2009NPPL holders had until 30 June 2009 to convert to the new system and must now have a signed C of R in their licence for each class they fly

[Okavango]

Just to return to this, after a bit more research, my understanding of the NPPL route to a TMG rating is:

Grant of NPPL from CAA based on existing PPL £49
SLMG Flight training as required and test - say £350
SLMG rating added to NPPL £69
TMG Rating added to PPL £84

Is this correct? The CAA direct route seems more straightforward, though training appears to have to be on specific types (eg Super Dimona), which are more expensive so this balances out against the increased admin costs of the NPPL route, the only problem seems to be finding a CAA Instructor - does anyone know of any in the north of England?

[znww5]

Almost! The NPPL will cost £139 :uhoh: and you apply for it through NPLG Ltd which is based at Turweston; see their web site for more info at:
NPPL Home Page (http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk)

As I understand it, one possible route would be for you to use your current PPL to receive differences training and then apply for an NPPL with SSEA and SLMG ratings on it at the same time, so that you don't have to pay for ratings fees twice.

The advantage of this route is that a) the differences training can be undertaken on any motorglider, whereas adding a TMG rating to a PPL must be done on a dual ignition aircraft such as the Dimona HK36 which they have at Enstone and b) it is only a paper shuffling exercise as opposed to the rating exam you would have to do with a PPL TMG rating.

The other advantages are that a) the NPPL is for life and b) the medical is only a declaration countersigned by your GP (cost me £25) and is renewed every 5 Years. Quite what EASA will to to the NPPL by the time they have finished is another matter, but that is the situation at present.

NPPL of course is restricted to <=4 seats, <2 tonnes, no IMC/IR or night ratings, but the French will now allow you to use an NPPL with an ICAO medical (see NPLG site for details) to fly in their country . . . . good for them :ok:

All of the above derived either from the NPLG website or from conversations with the NPPL folk at Turweston. If anybody has any further authoritative information, I would be interested to hear it too, as this is a path I am also considering.

[Okavango]

Yes - I initially thought it was £139, but the CAA scheme of charges state £49 for the 'Grant of a NPPL'. The NPPL website states payment to the CAA - surely they don't want both fees?!!! Annoying anyway that you don't automatically get a SSEA NPPL with a SEPL PPL but there you go!

[AdamFrisch]

I've just read a complete thread still not knowing what the hell a TMG is. As I've said, aviation has still yet to come across a name or word it doesn't turn into some incomprehensible abbreviation.

[tinpilot]

There's no requirement to pass a flight test to get an NPPL SLMG rating.

Whether you go straight to TMG rating or through the NPPL SLMG, you will need a PPL, a valid medical & training to an adequate standard (around 2 hours ought to be enough).

Then, either you hire a TMG and and pay an examiner to test you, or you pay the NPPL chaps for an NPPL with SSEA & SLMG ratings (no test).

Once you've done either of the above, then you pay the CAA for the addition of a TMG rating to your PPL.

Section F, appendix D of LASORS defines what is a TMG/SLMG or SLMG only. Hus Bos' Rotax Falke (http://www.caa.co.uk/applicationmodules/ginfo/ginfo_photo.aspx?regmark=G-HBOS&imgname=G-HBOS001&imgtype=jpg) counts as both. I've never heard of anyone getting an NPPL SLMG in a Nimbus or DG500 but I suppose it's possible.

I think that the cheque to NPLG (payable to the CAA) includes the £49 for the grant of an NPPL (check with the NPLG). Wouldn't there also be a CAA £192 fee for the type rating test if you do a TMG flight test?

(Adam - Touring Motor Glider)

[kestrel539]

Most motor gliders can be either a TMG or an SLMG.
I "think" that any glider with a stow away prop or engine ( Nimbus DM, DG's, Stemme etc) can only be an SLMG.
Its all a bit of a pain, as I hold both both an NPPL and a UKPPL, so the two 'planes I fly ( Pawnee and RF5 ), can be either SSEA and SLMG,or SEP and TMG.
I undestand other countries within europe and the rest of the world do not have such distinctions

[UAV689]

I have the rating on my PPL, can highly recomend clive at the motorglider center in Hinton.

All i did was a relaxed hour session with him, and a nice skills test and jobs done. Couple of hours max. A very good instructor.

UAV

[znww5]

#16 Out of curiosity, when did you do this, what aircraft did you use and was it to add a TMG rating to a JAR PPL(SEP)?

The reason I ask is because I enquired about this only last year and was told that the test must be done in a dual ignition TMG ie the Dimona at Enstone in this case. I couldn't do it in Clive's T61 motor glider because it was single ignition . . . no, I didn't understand the reasoning either!

[Okavango]

Re: last thread - yes that's exactly as I understand it, though you only have to do the test on the Dimona, you can do the training on other motorgliders, eg T61F. If you go down the NPPL route you can do the whole conversion on cheaper a/c, though there's extra admin costs so by my calcs it's the same cost either way. The only difficulty is finding a convenient TMG instructor/examiner - I think Clive at Hinton is the only one!! Does anyone know what the CAA test fee is if you go down the TMG route?

[bambuko]

#17 - I have heard this before ... well Grob 109B is single ignition and I have used it to get JAR PPL(A) with TMG rating, so I don't think they are correct (I have done mine 5 years ago)

[UAV689]

I think that dual ignition is a load of old rubbuarb. Did the whole lot on clives machine the falke on my jaa ppl.

[Arclite01]

So is there a form to fill in or do you just write in to the CAA with the Fee and a copy of the logbook proof of training to add the TMG rating to your JAR PPL ??

Arc

[UAV689]

filled out form, Clive sent it off with cheque to the CAA. Job done, easy peasy.

[Okavango]

I spoke to Clive the other day and he said the training could be done on his T61 but the test would have to be done across the way at Enstone on their Dimona.

Aside from a/c type and cost for training, what was the all-in cost of the test and license addition? I'm assuming a/c rental + £80 test fee + £86 CAA addition to licence. Does this sound correct?

[Arclite01]

So where do you get the form ??

I've got an SLMG rating on my NPPL - I just want a TMG added to my JAR PPL on the back of it !!

Arc

[Okavango]

Sorry to raise old ground but have just been looking through Lasors 2008 and it states the following:

The holder of a UK JAR-FCL licence with SEP rating
may also subject to completion of differences training
with an appropriately qualified flying instructor, exercise
the privileges of their licence on microlight aeroplanes
and SLMG’s in UK airspace only, without the necessity of
obtaining a NPPL (the normal licence for such aeroplanes).
However, any experience gained in microlight aeroplanes
or SLMG’s cannot be counted towards the flying
experience necessary to revalidate the SEP rating.

So you can get a SLMG rating on a PPL, but to get a TMG rating you still need to have flight test with a CAA examiner and the TMG rating is needed in order to be able to log hours flown in a SLMG toward license revalidation. What a palava!!

[Okavango]

Even more info:

However, a holder of a UK/JAR-FCL PPL(A) with SLMG
rating and a valid Certificate of Test/ Experience
for SLMG’s and has flown 75 hours as pilot of
aeroplanes (including motor gliders which meet the
JAR definition of TMG) can apply for the TMG rating
without passing the TMG LST.
Without a TMG class rating, the holder of a JAR-FCL SEP
rating may not count hours flown under national SLMG
privileges (even in an aircraft which meets the JAR definition
of TMG) towards the re-validation of the SEP rating.

This seems to suggest as long as you have more than 75 hours SEP, if you get a SLMG rating on your PPL you can apply straight for a TMG rating?