Maintenance Horrors

[javelin]

Having recently bought an aeroplane from a Northern school who claimed it had been maintained to the highest standards by their in house M3 organisation, i was somewhat disheartened when i did the C of A on it to find:-. .. .1. Machine screws replaced by self tappers. .2. Fabric repair done with stitched gaffer tape. .3. Inspection port - taped over with gaffer tape. .4. Enough crap from under the belly to half fill a waste bin. .5. Fabric repairs done with no care, sprayed with two pack over a Butyrate base - imaging how long that took before it peeled off !. .. .We pay good money for these 'experts' to look after our aeroplanes. Why can't we get value for money, or more importantly why can't we get a proper engineer to work on our aeroplane instead of a YTS chap. I now do my own maintenance, supervised by a retired engineer, signed off by an excellent engineer who gives good value and sound advice. I firmly believe he is in the minority. How many of you have had similar experiences - no names, just good hints <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[niknak]

Javelin - sorry to hear of your experience, in a perfect world everyone would be able to trust everyone else.. .However, this isn't a perfect world, and I'm a little suprised that your didn't get the aeroplane in question thoroughly checked over by an independant engineer.. .Any legitimate vendor would have no objection to this, and it may cost you a fixed fee in advance, but would have saved you a lot of pain in the future.. .Unfortunately you know that now..........

[LowNSlow]

It goes to show how badly understood fabric covered aeroplanes are understood by engineers more used to tin aeroplanes.. .. .Fortunately my aeroplane only needed "fettling" to tidy it up using cellulose dope and paint of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .With one exception, I've yet to find an engineer familiar with rag & tube aeroplanes under 55. I hope there are some more out there or we'd better all get our engineers licences cos there will be damn few of them around in 15 years time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[javelin]

niknak, I have bought and sold several aeroplanes and know where to look. I knew it needed some improving but was still surprised when I did the C of A at the gash methods which had previously been employed by a so called 'professional' organisation. It has only cost me time to fix it. What really concerns me is that many private owners out there trust the engineers completely, perhaps they should examine what they are getting for their hard earned money.

[WorkingHard]

There are some VERY GOOD AND PROFESSIONAL engineers out there who are well under 55 years old. BEFORE you by any aeroplane get a qualified engineer to report on it and get his specific terms of reference settled before repirting. If you then don't like the report leave well alone. A little money spent up front can save agreat deal in the aftermath of a poor buy. I am not an engineer but truts my life to the guys that look after my aircraft and would not nuy without their specific approval.

[extra]

Working Hard, to quote a good friend, have you found all the keys on your keyboard yet or are you just searching ?

[LowNSlow]

Working Hard, I think the point is that, apart from quite specialised companies, there are not that many "young" engineers out there who are familiar with older aeroplanes. From talking to some engineer pals, the numbers of bods entering the lighter side of aviation maintenance as a career is shrinking annually. . .. .Unfortunately, if you don't live within a reasonable distance of the specialists, when the new JAR rules kick-in (if they ever do) the old fabric aeroplanes (and the newer ones like Robins, Maules etc.) will be maintained by engineers whose experience is predominently on metal aeroplanes. . .. .Plus there are the usual deadbeats who take money for shoddy work that exist in every industry. From my past experience and from the experience of others, aviation is by no means free of the deadbeats. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[WorkingHard]

Extra - Yes I have found all the keys but sometimes get them mixed up with the keys in the cockpit, especially when programming the autoland which can be quite as entertaining as the keying errors in my last post but luckily the message still gets through to the bits that matter!

[Rob_L]

Maintenance standards are worrying engineers as much as pilots.
The CAA have relaxed to the point where they are fast asleep.
There is as always another side to the story, but first just a thought, next time you get to speak to the guy actually working on your plane (not his boss) ask him what he earns, you might be horrified.

OK on with the tale, how about the pilot who asked enginering to reassemble a very sick aeroplane so that he could taxi it into a tree for an insurance claim.
Then there was the guy who boasted about how many hours he was doing training for the helicopter championships. When the log book came in for annual not a single entry for the relevant period.
Then there was the guy who didn't think that the maker gave him enough battery power, so he would fit a totally illegal parallel
battery the moment it came out of engineering.
Then there was the guy found adjusting his autopilot actuators not long after engineering had certified it.
The pilot given two phone numbers for local engineering companies after he flew in with engine trouble. Didnt bother flew away and failed to make his destination(non fatally).

All these people potentially placed engineers careers at risk. They didn't give a damn. Enginers go on to the bigger operators and leave G.A well behind and who can blame them.

[Firkin L]

Rob L, good post. The reason why there are very few young people under training in the GA world is probably because the pay is appalling, working conditions are usually poor, employers don't train or invest in people, no security, no pension scheme, etc etc. The hourly rate for the guy who fixes my car is twice the local M3 rate for an aircraft. What doesn't help is the attitude of some owners who never pay their bills on time or expect top service for free.
I sympathise with anyone who has purchased a 'dog' but an independent inspection is essential if you are going to spend a large amount of money. In my experience the state of an aircraft is a direct result of the attitude of the owner to spending money on maintenance. I bet the person who but bodge tape on javelin's aircraft wasn't the engineer - he would love to charge the full rate for a fabric repair - thats how he makes money!

[FlyingForFun]

Having never yet been responsible for the maintenance on aircraft, I can't speak from personal experience. Previous posters have mentioned the poor rate of pay which the engineers get. But surely this is, at least partly, because we refuse to pay any more than we have to?

For example, I have heard lots of very good things about the engineering shop at White Waltham. I've certainly never had any complaints at all about the maintenance on the club aircraft. These are one of the few shops around who do know how to look after a wood+fabric aircraft. But I have heard numerous pilots complain about how expensive they are. I fear it's a simple case of "you get what you pay for."

On a lighter note: this weekend, I paid a deposit for my first aircraft - a 1/6th share in a Europa. (Balance payable once I complete differences training, and a conversion course - so I'm not an aircraft owner just yet!) I wanted the plane looked over by someone who knows what they're looking for before I parted with my hard-earned cash, and since it's a PFA aircraft, that meant finding a PFA inspector. A quick e-mail to the PFA, and 2 days later I received a huge list of inspectors all over the south of England.

It was almost a case of putting a pin on the paper, and using whoever the pin pointed to. In the end, though, the decision was made for me - I picked a handful of inspectors in my area, and none of them answered their phones. I left them all messages, and only one returned my call.

What a nice guy! We chatted for a while before the owner arrived with the keys. He spent a fair while looking over the aircraft, got down on his hands and knees to check underneath (quiet an achievement for a gentleman of his age, but it didn't seem to bother him too much!) and then told me he couldn't find any problems, and I should buy it (not a surprise - the plane has less than 50 hours total time, so it's only recently come out of it's final pre-first-flight inspection - but good to hear it confirmed anyway).

The total cost for this service? Nothing! Of course I insisted on giving him enough money for more than a couple of brandys. But it's so rare to find someone who's prepared to share his expertise for no other reason than that he loves aeroplanes. A very rare breed, and someone I will make sure I say Hello to whenever I see him at the airfield bar in future.

FFF
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[LowNSlow]

FFF congrats on becoming a member of the "throwing tenners onto the fire" club :D

Seriously though, good luck with the Europa, bit faster than a Super Cub!! I trust you have actually joined the PFA.... :D

People always seem to complain about the cost of engineers. The chaps I know charge a reasonable rate (in both senses) and they are quick and efficient. I'm prepared to pay for this kind of service because I value my aeroplane and my life. However they are different form most engineers in that one is freelance and the other chap owns the airfield. From conversations with them, young people entering the industry are offered all the negative points that Rob L and Firkin L pointed out. Can't blame them for not being interested in GA.

Slow payment of bills was another major complaint. Where do people get off be getting work done costing possibly thousands in bits and then taking weeks (sometimes months) to pay? :mad: Try doing that at your local garage. :rolleyes:

Why skimp on maintenance? Who's life is at risk here? Oh, that'll be the chap/chapette who skimped on the work then. Tossers. Unless you're extremely lucky the sound of wings clapping hands over your head is a sound that's only heard once. :eek:

[You want it when?]

Well done to FFF for getting further into debt :D - I expect to see posts about complaints about availability - closely followed by a new "Plane is Born" saga!

I'm never going to be able to afford a plane (and yes my PPL is still progressing slowly - solo'd last week) but I've just bought a 32' twin diesel power boat - a slightly more family friendly hobby. Operating and owning costs are similiar to a four place single - except I can load lashings more booze when I go to France :D :D. This will be maintained in the "regardless of costs" manner.

Regarding repairs and mechanics - the adage you get what you pay for is ever so true. I always make sure that whoever works on my toys is paid well, I never (OK rarely) quibble the bill, I inspect the work done (like I have a clue) and make sure that a bottle of whisky or the like gets to the right person as thanks for a good job. Never failed yet. :D

[StephenRED]

Maybe I should tell you guys about the propeller that was filled with grout at the company I used to work for...Hartzell variable pitch prop (I think hartzell anyway...),client was coming in to inspect the "new" propeller that hadn`t really arrived yet so we were instructed the night before to fill in the old propeller with grout!!,and spray it over and clean it,and the pilot wanted to fly the damn thing!!!,had to pretend the brakes were faulty because the prop wasn`t tightened up alot!!..the prop arrived next day thankfully but..geesh!!

[FlyingForFun]

YWIW - hello mate, didn't realise you're still hanging around here!

Sounds more like Mrs YWIW speaking though. A plane can be just as cheap as a boat, so if you can afford one, you can afford the other! :D And more family-friendly, too! Go almost anywhere in Europe, take the kids with - it's much quicker than going by boat, so the kids won't get so bored, and they'll have more time to enjoy themselves when you arrive. Fair point about lack of space for booze though.

As you said, same applies to all toys, not just planes. You'll be looking after your boat properly. All maintenance on my car gets done either by me, or by a Triumph specialist who is known in the industry for over-charging, but whose work, IMHO, is always excellent. I'm sure your cars get the same treatment - at least, any of your cars which Mrs YWIW hasn't made you sell yet! :D

Oh, and well done on your solo - you kept that very quiet!

FFF
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[steamchicken]

A professional of my acquaintance in northwestern Aussie had a terrible experience with a Super Cub - shortly after takeoff roll control was lost, fortunately wings-level. He was able to land correctly - on examination he found that his predecessor had replaced aileron cables with *ropes*. When the walkround and cockpit checks were done, the control action seemed OK, but once in the air a knot jammed under a spar....:eek:

(Background: the incident took place on his last job before I met him, on a station in the northwest corner of the NT. This was the first flight of the job - hence the horrid discovery)

[poetpilot]

Javelin, returning to the original message, was your aircraft perchance a Citabria?