SLMG Training in LAA SLMG

[kestrel539]

Hi,
My understanding is that for me to give training in an LAA SLMG, the pupil
must be a member of the syndicate owning the SLMG.
Is this correct?
Cheers
Ian K

[Whopity]

No it is not correct. Ownership is irrelevant. What you are probably refering to is the statement contained in the ANO Schedule 7:(5) Subject to paragraph (6), the holder is entitled to fly as pilot in command of an aeroplane of a type or class specified in an instructor’s rating included in the licence on a flight for the purpose of aerial work which consists of instruction or testing in a club environment. It used to say in a flying club in which both persons are members. As there is no legal definition of a flying club within the ANO, it is all fairly meanigless. It takes no account of schools which are not clubs and the CAA's own examiners do not operate in a club environment. When JAR-FCL was introduced in 1999, all SLMG training came under the auspices of the BGA not the LAA.

[hatzflyer]

Just out of interest, what sort is it? I didn't realise there were any slmg's on LAA permits (well not 2 seaters any way).

[kestrel539]

Thanks Whopity.
Its an RF5, and I'm only using it to convert Glider pilots.

[hatzflyer]

Is it registered as a SEP or SLMG? I thought all SLMG s came under the BGA ?

[kestrel539]

SLMG.
It's one of the few that are on the PFA/LAA register.

[hatzflyer]

I must admit as a LAA inspector myself, I thought that all SLMG's came under the BGA. Interesting, I wonder if other SLMG 's are flying on LAA permits.
My Moni is actually called a Monnett Moni Motorglider ,to give it it's full name, but it had to be registered as a single engine piston.

The waters are very muddy. My PPL says I can fly SLMG's but I don't think I can any more!(legally that is!) :ugh:

Edited..I am based on a gliding site, and all the motor glider pilots that I know are moaning about the costs associated with ARCs.

Edited again...Are you intructing as a BGA instructor or as SEP?( or gp A whatever the terminology is nowadays )

[kestrel539]

Brand new SLMG (FI), with a share in the RF5.
Trying to get all the ducks in a row, as one or two glider club members are now asking to be taught the NPPL

[Mike Cross]

I recommend AIC W071 (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/aic/EG_Circ_2009_W_071_en.pdf)

and W 043 (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/aic/EG_Circ_2010_W_043_en.pdf)

Good luck with the deciphering!

[BEagle]

kestrel539, could you advise me which controls (if any) are not duplicated in the rear cockpit of the RF5B please?

Thanks.

[Whopity]

My PPL says I can fly SLMG's but I don't think I can any more!(legally that is!All UK PPLs were issue with an SLMG rating as well as the old Group A rating. In order to activate the SLMG rating you had to past a GST in a SLMG, and the examiner issued a C of T to validate the rating. Nothing has changed!

[kestrel539]

BEagle,
Check your PM's.
Cheers

[hatzflyer]

Checked with LAA today.It appears that there are some RF5s on permit to fly .
This arose some time back as the support was not available to enable them to carry on with a CofA.(without going into detail that was the criteria then)
however this subsequently changed so they belong to that small batch of aircraft where you can be on a permit or CofA even though it is the same aircraft.
The answer to your original question is slightly complicated but in essance is..No LAA permit aircraft are cleared for reward.So for you to charge for tuition it has to be on a C ofA which can be easa or BGA.
There is however a loop hole that basically allows owners to train in their own permit aircraft provided no reward changes hands.Thats a slight simplification but should answer your question.:ok::ok:

[ifitaintboeing]

There is however a loop hole that basically allows owners to train in their own permit aircraft provided no reward changes hands.

It's not a loop hole, but is written in to the Air Navigation Order, and it allows remunerated training on sole owned aircraft.

No LAA permit aircraft are cleared for reward.So for you to charge for tuition it has to be on a C ofA which can be easa or BGA.

The information you have provided above is inaccurate, and should not have come from the LAA.

Both BEagle and myself are very knowledgeable on these matters.

kestrel539, might I suggest that you ask the question on the LAA Bulletin Board, or contact the LAA direct.

The following Technical Leaflet contains some information:

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/TechnicalLeaflets/Operating%20An%20Aircraft/TL%202%2009%20Learning%20to%20Fly%20in%20a%20Permit%20Aircra ft_Issue%204.pdf

ifitaint...

[kestrel539]

Thanks ifitaint, para 1 of that document seems to be quite clear.
When other issues have been clarified I will have to get in touch
with the LAA.
Cheers

[hatzflyer]

In what way is it inaccurate? and it DID come from the LAA . I am not in the habit of telling lies even if I am not as knowledgeable as you.
I made a point of sying that my post was a simplified way of explaining the question as I hadn't got time to post chapter and verse on what is a very complex subject.
But being so knowledgeable I suppose you knew that didn't you.

[Mike Cross]

Hatz

The inaccuracy is in
The answer to your original question is slightly complicated but in essance is..No LAA permit aircraft are cleared for reward.So for you to charge for tuition it has to be on a C ofA which can be easa or BGA.
There is however a loop hole that basically allows owners to train in their own permit aircraft provided no reward changes hands.Thats a slight simplification but should answer your question

Go read AIC W071 above. Remunerated flying training is possible in a permit aircraft that is solely owned.

1 The basic position
1.1 Article 157(1) of the Air Navigation Order (ANO) requires that, when valuable consideration1* is given or promised in respect of a
flight, the flight will be deemed to be for the purposes of aerial work. Part 3 of the ANO (Airworthiness) requires that aircraft used for aerial
work purposes must be maintained to a higher airworthiness standard than is normally required for private flights.
1.2 Article 157(2), however, allows valuable consideration to be given for the services of a pilot and provided that it is the only form of
valuable consideration being given in respect of the flight will be deemed to be private for airworthiness purposes and therefore the aircraft
need only be maintained to an airworthiness standard applicable to private flight.
1.3 This means that if a person has the use of an aircraft without needing to pay anyone for it, he can pay for the services of a pilot,
perhaps including flying instruction, even though the aircraft is only maintained to a standard applicable to a private flight.
1.4 If an instructor provides his services free of charge and no valuable consideration is being given or promised, the flight is private.

If the flight is private it can legally take place in a permit aircraft.

The applicable legal bit is Art 157(2) of the ANO.

Ifitaint has provided you with a link to an LAA document that says
1.
An owner may receive remunerated (or un-remunerated) flight training in his own LAA aircraft provided he is a ‘sole’ owner and not part of a group ownership.
(Direct family members of the owner’s immediate family are also acceptable).

[ifitaintboeing]

The Article number is now 259 (2). The AIC needs to be amended to reflect the fact that the ANO was virtually re-written.

I can assure you that the LAA document is up to date.

Hatz - PM sent.

ifitaint...

[Mike Cross]

Agreed, and they also need to amend the bit about licensed a/d being required for training. They'll get round to a re-issue eventually.

[BEagle]

Having now received further information about the limitations of the rear seat in the RF5B, my opinion is that, for training, it would probably only be suitable for converting pilots onto the aircraft who already hold either Glider Pilot Licences or other pilot licences.

The lack of instrumentation in the rear seat would make ab initio NPPL SLMG training rather risky.

Nice aircraft though!

[ifitaintboeing]

The lack of instrumentation in the rear seat would make ab initio NPPL SLMG training rather risky.

Do you mean like a Super Cub?

[kestrel539]

ORS4 No 802 seems to have changed things a wee bit.
Thankyou Mr CAA