French ATC

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

On a similar vein to the Spanish ATC problems of late, all I have had when asking for short-cuts that are usually given on initial check-in is "standard routing". With that and their lack of any flexibility on flight levels, plus their tendency to go out on strike France24 - Air traffic controller strike to disrupt flights from French airports (http://www.france24.com/en/20100223-air-traffic-controller-strike-disrupt-flights-french-airports) it's all making for a costly and heavily disrupted summer so far.

[FRying]

From what I can understand, today's strike serves a different purpose from that of the current work on rule strike.

The reason they're carrying this work on rule action at the moment (a strike with no name as there is nothing official - how bold of them !!! They still get paid for buzzing those very people feeding them) is that they now have to sign in.

YES how can you expect from anyone to sign in at work ! This is slavery at work. And the reason signing in is such a disgrace to their eyes is that they used to surf on a system whereby people were simply called off from work during less dense trafic periods. Which means these people used to stay home but were still counted as active, working staff : getting paid for not working. How about that !!! This is called the "clearance" system, i.e. forget about coming to work today, you're cleared to dabble in all sorts of leisure activities, doing :mad:

Now, the fact they have to sign in with their own ID card and not just waiving at the team as before means they have to take this "work method" out of their life style.

Their argument is "if you want to abide by the rules (i.e. signing in) so will we. All standard, no fuss, no search for improved flight tracks or flight levels. Nothing. All by the charts, obviously forgetting that speeding traffic flows is a hard part of their duty.

Now you know why your airline is wasting so much money in France for these drama queens.

[PPRuNeUser0204]

A bit like standby then, how disgraceful.

[Right Way Up]

"if you want to abide by the rules (i.e. signing in) so will we. All standard,

Does that mean they will answer your call 1st time? now ;)

[Checkboard]

ATC: "Aircraft 123, can you increase Mach point seven eight?"

Pilot: "I don't know, Bordeaux, can you give direct DIKRO?" :ok:

[ron83]

ATC: "Aircraft 123, can you increase Mach point seven eight?"

Pilot: "I don't know, Bordeaux, can you give direct DIKRO?"

atc: descend to FL 290:}:E

[OFDM]

atc: descend to FL 290http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Pilot: Dial in 7600 and stay up there. :}

[JW411]

Now that is about the most constructive solution I have read so far but I do wonder how many of you out there would actually have the balls to do that.

More years ago than I care to remember, that was the only way that the Red Arrows (when they flew Gnats) could go anywhere in Europe due to their lack of range and inability to deal with the vagaries of French ATC etc.

Their answer was to climb to F310 or thereabouts and then go "speechless" until it was time to come down again.

Worked like a charm.

[BOAC]

Indeed, JW - and sometimes there were R/T difficulties with French ATC 'not below xxx ft' for fly-pasts at airfields :)

[DownIn3Green]

Then of course there's the language barrier...i.e.-where are the AF A/C and what are they doing??? Hope you speak "Francais"...

Even the African Controllers (pick a Country, it doesn't matter) have a better command of "Aviation English" than the French...

[Mr A Tis]

I understand todays 24hr strike was in protest of the French Governments proposal to raise the state retirement age from 60 to 62.
Strange how this wasn't reported on the UK TV News today.

[Bealzebub]

Then of course there's the language barrier...i.e.-where are the AF A/C and what are they doing??? Hope you speak "Francais"...

Even the African Controllers (pick a Country, it doesn't matter) have a better command of "Aviation English" than the French...

First sentence is valid, but can't say there is much validity in the second.

Whilst it is not unusual for Americans to have to have some particular difficulties with instructions, I had always just put it down to accents, or the fact the patter wasn't being delivered at the speed of a tobbaco auctioneer!

I have always found French ATC to be professional and precise, when they are working.

[Alber Ratman]

They pis$ed off a load of yanks in a flying gin palace today.. Nice 3 1/2 hour hold.. Made us laugh!!

[Gonzo]

Maybe they've just read this?
EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM adherence (http://www.eurocontrol.int/dmean/public/standard_page/FPL_ATFCM_adherence.html)

[Nightstop]

Eurocontrol really have got this all wrong. If they experience "overdelivery" it's because they've understaffed the sectors concerned for economic reasons. Planning on their part should include the expectation that real world efficient flow of airtraffic includes DCT routes and different FL's flown for fuel economy, therefore traffic will sometimes arrive early.
Who's providing a Service here? Not Eurocontrol or it's Commitees, that's for sure.

[Trossie]

Best ever ATC instruction one can get:
"Contact London on XYZ (freq.)" ...in a French accent!!!

[Los Endos]

So in the current economic climate with European air traffic 13% below it's 2007 levels Europe's controllers suddenly can't handle it any more. Yes aircraft change speed, level, heading and departure times for any number of reasons, this is not a utopian world and forcing aircraft to burn thousands of tons of extra fuel to save understaffed atc units a few pennies is a sad reflection on (mis)management culture. The cry of flight safety is hackneyed and wearing a bit thin. Provide the service for which the airlines pay hundreds of millions in Eurocontrol charges.

[Roffa]

Pilot: Dial in 7600 and stay up there.

The pax will enjoy the views of the Mirage or Rafale off the wingtip I'm sure :}

[millerman]

How did this get away from the original thread?

Los Endos,

They aren't Eurocontrol charges. Eurocontrol only collects the charges on behalf of the ANSPs/states so each airline doesn't get a seperate bill for each country they fly over for every flight ! :ugh:. The states set the charges and spend the income - nothing to do with Eurocontrol.

Nightstop

Why have they got it wrong? In today's economic climate service providers also have to cut costs and they provide the staff when and where they are needed, calculated by the only means available to them - flow and demand predictions. If a sector reaches capacity there is not a lot anyone can do except put on restrictions. If an airline files below/around that sector to avoid that restriction they know they have extra fuel burn and costs but are prepared to fly to keep on schedule - then it is a calculated business decision. However if the airline requests the higher level/direct on frequency and it is given this can quickly overload the restricted sector and could be extremely dangerous.
I see it every day with a certain Irish airline that files FL320 and always requests FL380 when on frequency - this causes extra workload (and throws all the predictions out) as we have to check with flow to see if there are any restrictions further down the route - maybe we should start charging them for every change to their plan (booking) :E:E
ANSP's don't provide extra staff when not required ( just in case there are some level changes or direct routes ) just like airlines wouldn't provide extra cabin crew just in case there is a high demand for drinks !! :ooh:

The future is flight plan adherence - get used to it!

Also to those that are complaining about not getting direct - think about it. You are getting exactly what you have paid for and requested (flightplan route) - just because you usually get a bonus (direct) doesn't mean you are entitled to it - so stop throwing the toys out of the pram :=

Millerman

[Staticdroop]

Well said millerman, plenty of people looking at this one way only.

[SR71]

Stop muddying the waters...

No one would complain if the reason "directs" aren't given is because of ATS constraints.

What folk object to, is the system being used by disgruntled employees to make a point.

This isn't about capacity, its playing politics with a safety critical element of Europe's transport infrastructure.

:=

[Flapskew]

At least we are now allowed to file and fly direct routings over some of Europe at night. Considerable fuel and time savings. Win Win. Hopefully it can be extended to all of Eurocontrol Airspace during day time as well.

Not exactly helping the environment with all that extra carbon being dumped over France and Spain...

[pitotheat]

Every time you get these pan European Bureaucrats set up their cosy offices it is only a matter of time before instead of them serving the user groups/parties roles are reversed. Closer and closer integration in Europe I don't think so. Yet again the tail is wagging the dog. To suggest Eurocontrol collect on behalf of and pass on charges to individual states is a joke. This burdensome system takes a huge chunk of money to support itself. Whilst airlines struggle at times to make a few euros from each seat these talentless clowns are charging eye watering amounts of money to run a system and change it's procedures to suit itself.
Controllers across Europe must start to realize they are not immune to what the wider world is going through. We are all going to have to work harder with a squeeze on our T&Cs. Those in the public sector particularly in the med countries have got to wake up to the fact that the North Europeans are not going to continue to handover huge amounts of EU money so that they can continue their comfortable lifestyle. The gravy train has finished, either adapt or die.

[maybepilot]

french/spanish ATC: you have to cross FL 260 within 3 minutes
A/C: unable

french/spanish ATC: maintain mach .78 or more/less
A/C: unable

french/spanish ATC: descent FL 310
A/C: XXX descent FL 310
A/C: reporting moderate to severe turbulence at FL310, request climb back to FLXXX

french/spanish ATC: turn left/right HDGXXX (maybe when unable to reach FL260 within 3 minutes because of their letters of agreement)
A/C: unable due WX

french/spanish ATC: fly according to flight plan route
A/C: need left/right deviation to a HDG of xxx degrees and climb to higher level due WX (a shortcut and a higher cruising level in one call)

[Checkboard]

I see it every day with a certain Irish airline that files FL320 and always requests FL380 when on frequency

.. and it IS just a request. If it isn't available, a refusal doesn't offend.

- this causes extra workload (and throws all the predictions out) as we have to check with flow to see if there are any restrictions further down the route

.. its tough having to do a job, isn't it. :rolleyes: If we are all going to fly as planned, perhaps we can automate ATC and save a load of money sacking all of the human controllers. :rolleyes:

- maybe we should start charging them for every change to their plan (booking)

Fees are already charged. They include operational changes en-route - hence the requests you receive.

[Lon More]

Who's providing a Service here? Not Eurocontrol or it's Commitees, that's for sure.

What comes out of the Eurocontrol (and any other) committee is only as good as what goes in (RI-RO)

Maybepilot Has it ever occured to you that you may not be the only aircraft in that particular bit of airspace or that there may even be lots of military people playing around with flash bangs just off the airway?

Pitotheat for your information The Route Charges System is operated in a very cost-efficient way, with low collection costs (less than 0.3%).

The governance of the Route Charges System is based on:


A decision-making process involving all Member States
A strong involvement of ANSP
A regular consultation of Airspace users through well-established consultation processes

Hardly a burdensome system considering that the costs, per country, would be about the same if each country charged individually.

Pilot: Dial in 7600 and stay up there. Then sit back and enjoy the view as already suggested. BTW please retain the CVR tape for analysis. And if we really decide our plonker is being pulled, expect an unscheduled diversion and a long and thorough examination (including the lubricated rubber gloves):}

[Squawk7777]

Then of course there's the language barrier...i.e.-where are the AF A/C and what are they doing??? Hope you speak "Francais"...

Ahhh, the favorite argument of a monoglot! Hope you'll never fly to Latin America. Stay home! The world outside your (limiting) box is seemingly too much for you to handle. Pathetic argument :ugh:

[millerman]

Checkboard

Maybe in your world refusal doesn't offend but in my (real) world it often does, with quotes such as " do you know how much extra fuel we will have to burn ?" or even "why?" - take it up with your company and tell them to file the correct RFL :rolleyes: and don't waste my time on the frequency.
By the way when automation comes to your utopia let me know, and I will happily retire to the beach - but I for one would not step on an aircraft again:ok: It is a lot easier to automate aircraft than ATC systems :ooh:

[Mikehotel152]

Can't we just get along?

[Ancient Observer]

Lon,

er, 0.3% of a very, very, large sum of money is still a very large sum of money.
Especially when it should be close to zero................

[Avman]

Can't we just get along?

There was a time when we very much did so. Crews came to visit us and whenever we flew we were invited to the pointy end for the entire trip. This encouraged not only good relations but an opportunity to discuss and appreciate each others' job and operational frustrations.

Now days, both in ATC and at the pointy end of aircraft, there are too many young, selfish and arrogant know-it-all pups who think they're God's gift to aviation and the entire world should revolve around them. I've spotted one or two on this thread already.

[Lon More]

Ancient Observer the point is it's one time 0.3%, The alternative would be say, 4 countries overflown, therefore 4 x 0.3% + 1.2%. Then the extra work for the airline accounts dep. = more beancounters

Avman I was thinking along those lines too; and it wasn't Millerman:}

even baggage handlers came before you.... except they were called Co-Pilots then

one less prick aboard aircraft won't hurt.... Please move right down the bus!!

[Avman]

For sure not, he doesn't qualify as "young" any longer :}:E

[millerman]

Maybepilot
I am not there to serve you (or bow to your every whim) I am there to provide a SERVICE there is a big difference :ugh: especially when your requests (because your company is trying to dodge restrictions) can compromise safety :ugh:
I try to give the best directs I can at all times because I believe that is part of the service but when I am working my balls off and the R/T is busy and someone asks for direct through various military areas (normally stepping on someone else) with no situational awareness or awareness of anyone else in the sky - then I can get a little :mad: off ! := If you could go direct there you already would be :*

If you want me to serve you then that is a completely different service and it will cost you a hell of a lot more :mad:
But I forgot some of you think you are royalty and everything should be there for you and no-one else!
God help us if you are allowed to separate yourselves with everyone wanting to fly at the same time at the same level with no-one backing down :ooh:


Avman

Thanks - I certainly don't feel "young" at the moment. I will certainly feel a lot older if I have to start "serving" pilots !! :eek:

[maybepilot]

millerman,

don't have to explain how hard you work and how good you are at providing your service, what we experience on the line on a daily basis says it all already: just read the comments of those who "enjoy" the services of french/spanish ATC.


Please let us fly the flight planned route and talk to us the least you can, if we have a situation up there we'll tell you what we need and you just do what you are told as per your manual.

[christn]

What on earth has gone wrong with Aviation? Where has the mutual respect gone?

We have 18 year old, 9 to 5 office workers complaining that pilots are overpaid, controllers treating heavyweight 747s as though they were helicopters and pilots demanding all sorts of short cuts!

Let's face it, we are really not that clever, if we were we would not remain in what is becoming a toilet of an industry. We would earn huge bonuses, retire early and fly Tiger Moths on sunny days!

[poorjohn]

It is a lot easier to automate aircraft than ATC systemsWhy? The system predicts conflicts, and TCAS-like software demonstrably knows how to resolve them. Lots more to do, and political issues, and everyone would like a friendly voice on the ground once in a while, but it's technically do-able.

[galaxy flyer]

As I said to a CFMU punter one day long ago, "not only do you control air traffic, you get to control how much air traffic you will control, obviously to your benefit." The bloody lot should be fired, except in France they might burn down the country in juvenile tantrum.

GF

[Blockla]

but it's technically do-ableMy favourite line from "the Castle"... "Tell him he's dreaming"

If it were 'doable' it would've been done... ANSPs world wide spend around 60% of their revenue on wages imagine what profits could be made if they were able to automate ATC... The millions spent on 'automating' some of the functions and proving to be error ridden time and time again, never on time, never on budget, would suggest that we are a very, very long way off 'full automation'. Oil supplies will probably be exhausted before we get it done.

I feel incredibly sad that this juvenile name calling and chest thumping has dominated a thread that could have been constructive and opened up understanding at both sides of the mike... oh well... next thread...:}

[Farrell]

How can all this be true?

I have been told by a French ATCO that French ATCOs are the most highly trained and best in the world at being ATCOs.

[Mister Geezer]

Glad I just finished my cup of tea, otherwise my laptop would be wearing it whilst I burst into laughter at the previous comment.

Also the reason why RYR often request different levels to what is filed is that nearly all their Flight Plans are RPLs so it just spits out the same speed, level and route on a repetitive basis.

If you are bombing around in turboprops or in jets on very short sectors then RPLs will probably still bear a close resemblance to what gets flown in terms of level etc.

[Avman]

galaxy flyer, are you suggesting that traffic flow should not be regulated ('controlled' in your words), or do I misunderstand you?

[DownIn3Green]

SquawkEmergency...

I have flown to EVERY Country in Central/South America...and have lived and worked for many years in 3 different countries in Africa...

The difference is France purports itself to be a First World nation...Not 3rd world...Get on the bus or walk...join the modern world or be prepared to be classified otherwise...

[ACCP]

I have been told by a French ATCO that French ATCOs are the most highly trained and best in the world at being ATCOs.

The sad thing is: they really, honestly, genuinely, believe it's true, and they use this as a reason to justify the outrageous terms and conditions they enjoy (as well as their ability to paralyze the country, as they do from time to time). Chronically weak french governments do the rest when it comes to bolster their ego and reinforce their position.

The rest of us who fly in their airspace know what they are really worth when compared with their european colleagues, be it East of the Rhine, North of the Ardennes, or West of the Channel.

[galaxy flyer]

Avman

First, my point was that that can control how much work they want to do and there appears to be no one saying that more can be done. CFMU could say 100 airplanes a day, who's to tell them different?

Second, there is, except for 4 or 5 airports in the US, nearly no slot regulation in the US. There are exceptions for extreme thunderstorm weather, but no general slot regulation like in Europe. The reason, as I see it, is the arcane and outdated idea that every country has to have its own ATC system with the resulting over-sectorization and coordination. Also, too much confidence that one office in BRU can figure out the correct level of traffic across the continent. Over-centralization of control.

Say what you want, there is considerably more traffic in North America with far fewer controls, slots, ATC "job actions", etc.

Third, when US ATCOs tried a strike, Reagan pulled out the rug, so slowdowns or strikes here are not even thought of.

GF

[Los Endos]

Millerman

If you're going to pedantic, I'll just call them navigation charges, Ok ? Unfortunately flying conditions change daily and we try to fly the aircraft as efficiently as possible given those conditions. If you can accomodate a different flight level or a direct routing great, if not, tant pis. But please lets not get patronising, it achieves nothing.

[millerman]

LOs Endos
I wasn't trying to be pedantic - just pointing out the common misconception that Eurocontrol doesn't set or even benefit from the charges that the states levy.
Also I wasn't trying to be patronising but when you work 50 aircraft in an hour and 30 of them ask for direct - it does tend to grate a bit, especially when they have just heard you explain that the military are active!
Also when you say proceed direct to ABC and the reply is can't we go to XYZ - If you could go there I would have given it you :hmm:

[Avman]

Galaxy flyer, you are comparing apples with pears. I can only presume that you have no understanding of the complex airspace structure in Europe. This is not Eurocontrol's doing nor is it that of the ATCOs. To put it in a nutshell, they just don't have the same amount of airspace to play in as the USA does. I have flown 35 nm downwind before being given the turn back in at DFW. Try do that at some major European airports and you would be in some other country's airspace, or restricted (military) airspace.

No, there's no flow regulation in the USA, that's why you spend 90 minutes taxying at JFK before getting airborne. I wonder what costs that produces in wasted fuel in each year.

[Del Prado]

Third, when US ATCOs tried a strike, Reagan pulled out the rug, so slowdowns or strikes here are not even thought of.

how many have died in aircraft collisions at US aerodromes without ATC since the PATCO strike?

(genuine question)

[Guy D'ageradar]

Why? The system predicts conflicts, and TCAS-like software demonstrably knows how to resolve them. Lots more to do, and political issues, and everyone would like a friendly voice on the ground once in a while, but it's technically do-able.

Hmmm. I wonder whether the sysem could also predict which aircraft would fly by rather than over the waypoints/dial in 20 kts more than instructed/descend at 300fpm & not meet requirements/not have the cabin ready for landing/declare emergency & request priority etc. etc. The point is moot. :ugh:

Let's face it - when the time comes that controllers are no longer needed because of automation, there will surely be no pilots either! :hmm:

Time we all got together around a large jug of beer and got over the "us and them" mentality that tends to prevail these days.

Guy.

p.s. If you're looking for super direct routeings, it's amazing what an ID90 or two can do!! (and I don't mean Emirates' version - i.e. 10% discount!!!):mad:

[poorjohn]

I didn't suggest that ATC would be replaced by automation, just as auto-fly/auto-land airplanes still are fully manned - just that if there were political will, existing technology could automate much of the system.

Computers can consider that kind of data much faster than humans, so could quickly evaluate and authorize pilots' requests for the best route/altitude. And would of course have knowledge of the entire airspace - no "coordination" with the computer in charge of the next sector.

Meanwhile, the centers would still be manned (probably at a lower level).

Yes, it ain't gonna happen, but not because it's beyond the technology.

[galaxy flyer]

Del Prado

Your question is more properly, how many mid-air collisions occurred at airports that lost VFR towers post-1981? Don't know, but there are about 10,000 uncontrolled airports in the US and probably, guessing, about 200 lost VFR towers and never regained them.

Avman

Well, not so fast, I've been flying in Europe for better than 20 years, civil and military, in fact, off to Rome-Ciampino in the morning. I completely understand the limits of geography. I also have waited 2 hours for a slot, only to get airborne and be cleared direct to a fix 200 nm away and barely anyone the frequency. Anecdotal, true, but common enough. I have been told that my slot wouldn't be for 2 hours, let the pax off and instantly given a slot in 20 minutes. It doesn't take more than, say, 20 of events to get real cynical about European ATC.

BTW, LAX airspace is pretty tight with 5 major airports and probably two dozen uncontrolled airports within a 40 mile radius--slot regulation, NOPE. Last US mid-air involving an airliner was there 24 years ago and put the fire under TCAS implementation.

GF

[Farrell]

East of the Rhine, North of the Ardennes, or West of the Channel.

ACCP

I notice that the beloved "Shpain!" did not make that list.

One has no problem wondering why, though! :)

[ACCP]

You're right. I didn't mention South of the Alps either.

[Avman]

galaxy flyer, I guess we could go on for ever, just like a recent tennis match ;)

I fly regularly both in Europe and the USA and I have to say that in the past 5years I have on average experienced more ground and airborne holding delays in the USA (often disguised in the USA by extended "scenic" routes to the approach) than I have in Europe. That's the truth. Of course there are many variables which can to a certain extent distort the reality, just the same as you getting a 200nm direct and "barely anyone on the frequency" means diddly-squat if you know anything about ATC.

Go visit some European ATC enroute centers and you might just be surprised. If nothing else, it'll do you good to get away from that cocooned little world you live in up there in the clouds. ;) [Just kidding with you].

Take care, fly safe.

[ATCO1962]

Come on guys, be kind. There are some very good French controllers. Only problem is, they are six feet under ground:}:}

Oh, and don't mention the last two big wars, whatever you do

[ACCP]

Schiphol has the best controllers, the ones most pleasant to work with and the best sense of humour. That's my own personal opinion anyway.

[Lon More]

I also have waited 2 hours for a slot, only to get airborne and be cleared direct to a fix 200 nm away and barely anyone the frequency. Anecdotal, true, but common enough. I have been told that my slot wouldn't be for 2 hours, let the pax off and instantly given a slot in 20 minutes. It doesn't take more than, say, 20 of events to get real cynical about European ATC.

The reason for the delay might not be in the en-route sirspace but at DEP or DEST. Alternatively you might be flying through airspace that was expected to be full but where the traffic has all requested different FLs and is now several thousand feet above you..
Dep slots are very fluid, it's worth asking what the chances are of there being an improvement, possibly even stating that you need 30 minutes to herd them back on board again (alt. fly freight at night:}) If you want cynical, sit watching a teleprinter spew out 20 (slightly) different plans from A to B on the same flight number with a different suffix. All of them required a clearance, then 5 minutes later another company did exactly the same. Of course, they accept what for them was the best slot, but frequently forgot to cancel the others. result, empty skies when the sectors should be humming. So the fault in the past often laiy with the Operators. As a supervisor I only ever once dropped the capacity below the declared value, due shortage of staff caused by poor planning. The resultant meeting with no coffee or biscuits convinced me that it was not a good idea.

I think the situation with CFMU is a lot better than it was in the past when each unit had its own Flow Cell and each and every flight, sublect to restrictions had to be co-ordinated individually

[Mister Geezer]

I have decided that if the Frogs ask me to adjust my level or speed when established in the cruise, then due to 'operational reasons' I can only accomodate their request if they give me a 'short cut'. :}

[heavy.airbourne]

:rolleyes: Just starting to captaining a B757, an old dutch TRE showed me how it's done: n/b from TFS - "request H040 due to WX" - "approved, report able to turn back on track" - (after 5min.) "Fltxx, proceed to XYZ" - "unable, request to mtn H040 to avoid WX" etc. etc. - "Fltxx, this is unfair as undermining our efforts 2 improve work cond's". :}

[Lon More]

I can only accomodate their request if they give me a 'short cut'. Don't worry, it won't be necessary to reduce when you go the long way round :E

Heavy Airborne you may be aware of the requirement for High Level inbounds to AMS to be level 260 20DME N of EEL often coupled with a speed restriction of 260 IAS, when in range. (usually at EEL in practice, depending on the AMS controller) In the past a certain (Blue) airline's pilots had difficulty understanding it so the instruction from another, fortunately long gone, controller was, "260 is the number; descend to it, reduce to it or turn to it"and those too high, or too fast for the stream went to the back of the queue and got another go :}:} Of course, it wouldn't happen now

[BrATCO]

There are some very good French controllers. Only problem is, they are six feet under groundhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif


So, I could've been a good one... Sorry, I'm not dead yet.:bored:

Now I know the best you wish me.

Are you really ready to kill the publican everytime you don't get a free beer ?


I have decided that if the Frogs ask me to adjust my level or speed when established in the cruise, then due to 'operational reasons' I can only accomodate their request if they give me a 'short cut'. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif


Best procedure ever to get a direct... to Guantanamo. (frog's humour;))

Seriously, don't adjust anything, everybody will adjust around you. You are the center of your universe, I understand that.
Yes, I really do ! And, you know what ? You're also the center of MY universe when you're on the frequency I work. Nothing personal, I consider that's part of my job.

Hope we can get back to our usual worst service on Earth ASAP... you seem to miss it.

[DownIn3Green]

BrATCO...No problem here...

Just speak English (Universal Language of International Aviation) to all A/C, INCLUDING French A/C and this thread wouldn't even exist...

Your so-called "frog humor" is not very funny, but then again, maybe it's the attitude...

[ferris]

Also the reason why RYR often request different levels to what is filed is that nearly all their Flight Plans are RPLs so it just spits out the same speed, level and route on a repetitive basis. Has it been considered at RYR that if they actually paid someone to tailor the plans, the resultant savings generated across the fleet by more optimized level allocation could be significant- really significant? Or is hiring people to save money an oxymoron at RYR?

[Cherchemoi]

In most Northern Europe Countries, the most dummy janitor speak three to four langages. I can speak English, French and Spanish to ATCs because I took the time to learn. This is easy stuff compared to other aspects of flying. Pilots that are too intellectually limited to learn a second language should not disclose this intellectual handicap.

[ACCP]

@BrATCO: Tout ça c'est bien gentil mais pourquoi vous êtes aussi souvent en grève, vous les Français, comparé aux autres contrôleurs, surtout les européens du Nord? Est-ce que ce n'est pas parce vous êtes tellement privilgéliés et avez une telle sécurité de l'emploi que vous vous foutez de tout?

[Los Endos]

Is a xenophobic slagging match actually going to achieve anything ? Methinks not but a little egalitarianism in southern Europe wouldn't go amiss thanks.

[BrATCO]

Your so-called "frog humor" is not very funny, but then again, maybe it's the attitude...
Sorry about the bad joke. I was just a bit upset reading some posts.

Just speak English (Universal Language of International Aviation) to all A/C, INCLUDING French A/C and this thread wouldn't even exist...

I think this thread would exist anyway, the subject being "FRENCH ATC".

An experiment was made 10 or 15 years ago in Paris to make french pilots speak english. For some reason,the resulting decision was to come back to french.Don't know why.

I wouldn't mind speaking english. But french is a RT language also. If a pilot calls me in french over France, I must speak french with him. This is not my decision. That's a pilot/operator's issue (IATA, ICAO, ?), not only french ATC.

[Longhitter]

Unfortunately the 'resulting decision' you were talking about was purely based on chauvinistic grounds and by the french government. I think it was AF who decided to do all atc comms in English but they got a slap on the wrist from the government under union pressure as well (but I stand to be corrected on that version of events).

If they had done a proper assessment and decided to continue bilingual atc comms based on good arguments I could live with it.

It is unbelievable that France keeps doing this the way they do when the rest of Europe seems to be able to move over time. Especially after the whole LPE-thing becoming mandatory for international commercial air transport operations I can't believe why we are still hearing two languages at major international airports in France...

At least they will have to yield a little when the Single European Sky becomes reality.

[Bidalot]

And the froggies still speak french at CDG, re last post some time ago
QUOTE
At Paris Charles de Gaulle airport on 25 May 2000 the co-pilot of a Streamline Aviation
Shorts 330freighter was killed when the wingtip of an Air Libert‚ Boeing MD-83that had been cleared for its take-off cut into the cockpit as the 330 was entering the active runway.The MD-83 pilot abandoned take-off. The controller thought the 330 was following the MD-83 to the same holding point, but the Shorts was preparing to start its take-off on the same runway from a taxiway intersection 1,000m (3,280ft) along it. Visibility was poor, but to exacerbate the situation, the controller was talking to Air Libert‚ in French and to Streamline in English. The Streamline pilots did not understand French.
UNQUOTE

WTF !!!!:ugh::ugh:

[ACCP]

@BrATCO: I noticed you didn't answer my point about being on strike a lot more often than your european colleagues. What was the point of going on strike last Thursday, especially for a proposed reform that's only just a proposal at the moment and on which parliament hasn't yet voted.

[deci]

I wouldn't mind speaking english. But french is a RT language also. If a pilot calls me in french over France, I must speak french with him. This is not my decision. That's a pilot/operator's issue (IATA, ICAO, ?), not only french ATC."You must" ? It could be so if you're working in a vfr sector or in a small tower..
For all the other cases I think is more correct "You can".. (and for general safety you should speak french only if all the station you've in contact speak french)

[BrATCO]

ACCP,
From my point of view, strike is a serious lose-lose situation.
Why more in France than in the rest of europe? Maybe there are differences in the way governments deal with their responsabilities.
That's a political issue, I leave it to politicians.

I didn't go on strike last tuesday, I can't answer for the ones who did.

[ACCP]

I'm glad you didn't go on strike.

I have no time at all and no words to describe those who did. Sheltered in their cosseted "statut de fonctionnaire", with a job for life and a good pension, they couldn't give a toss about the fate of passengers left stranded, the fragile state of airlines and their employees struggling to stay afloat, as if we hadn't had enough to put up with this year.

Their action is one of utter and contemptuous selfishness.

Kenavo

[heavy.airbourne]

While you guys complain about Europe, I happen to think about Chine, where you are zigzagging across the country for hours, and if you are lucky you will land at an airport where you can speak directly to the controllers, and not thru a translator.:eek:

In Europe, the main problem is on the airline side, dispatch manpower that is; here is an example: Planned thru czech airpace for about 50 NM at FL350, you often will get a restricting slot. As I know this problem, I will call the dispatcher responsible for this flight asking if either a reroute avoiding Czechia or a lower FL would help, and there will be three possible outcomes: Nobody answers the call, "we do not have the manpower", or a minor change of flight plan and an immediate departure. I never experienced dispatchers coming up with a solution for a painful slot restriction on their own. :ugh:

[grovelpilot]

According to french communications regulations, if you are French you MUST speak french with french ATC. You can say it is ridiculous, dangerous but this is the rule

[wings folded]

I didn't go on strike last tuesday, I can't answer for the ones who did.

Very few did go on strike last Tuesday.

A great deal more did go on strike last Thursday.

[ATC Watcher]

This threads is like a comet : comes back regularly every 5 years or so with same arguments /consequences.
"us" and " them villains" , pilots vs controllers, English vs French language on R/T, French " exceptions ", " right of strike". etc.

Since 5 years ago, nothing new. So sterile debate .
Just 2 (old) comments for the new here :

Re the MD80-Shorts collision in CDG in 2000 : the cause of this accident was not language but intersection take off badly authorized by ATC. What a common language could have done there was increase situation awareness that might have alerted one of the Shorts crew that someone else was cleared for take off on that same runway they mistakenly entering. One of the recommendations on that report asked for a single language in runway ops . Common sense .
The French ATC administration called for English only in CDG as a result from a specific date. After 2 days the French Pilots union of Air France objected strongly quoting safety issues , and on their pressure and that of Air France OPS , the " experiment" was cancelled. The CDG controllers had no problem, some AF and ex IT pilots did.

Secondly :
According to french communications regulations, if you are French you MUST speak French with French ATC

Not as categorical .. The actual text in the French AIP says that "French language is (unless particular conditions like training for instance) used between a French pilot and a French controller "
There is no " must" and in practice , every pilot calling in English on the R/T will be answered in English, and this not only in France but nearly everywhere in the world.
Also using national languages is not prohibited by ICAO, on the contrary, it is just like the metric system. Something there since 1944 (Chicago Convention ) that no-one wants to challenge by fear of re-opening the Pandora box ( like the Oceanic FIR boundaries for instance ).

So banning French ( or Spanish, Russian ,etc..) on the R/T is not as simple as it looks and not really a Controller problem as we should be all level 4 by now..:E

[BrATCO]

Let me count on my fingers (backwards)... You're right, that was Thursday.
Confirm we're Monday today?

[BrATCO]

Thank you, Enjoy the view ! I must admit I felt a bit lonely during the last few days...

I would like to help those who could be interested :

https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/dossier/texteregle/RADIOTEL_V2.pdf

Have a look at "5.Expressions" (page 17).

When the traffic's busy, some foreign pilots sometimes try to ask for directs in french while crossing France. Obviously in order to help us not be harassed by too many requests afterwards.
We appreciate the effort.
But don't believe it works everytime. If the direct is available, usually, you already have it. As everywhere around the world, I assume.

Did you know that over France (how silly we are !) when a French plane is behind, it stays behind.
That's our rule : Closer/faster/first/ahead, Farther/slower/second/behind, whatever the company. (It's official now, AFR pilots will come on this thread and kill me... OK, I'm ready, I've seen worse).
This is the french vision of being civil servants.

An other point about the "service public à la française". I really want you to know that !
At the end of each year, when the DGAC has paid all its bills, the remainig money is given back to the companies (I know, you don't believe me, but it's true !). That's a 1948 law (correct me if I'm wrong).

And, finally, my answer to ACCP :
As a civil servant, I should not be fired for economical reason, that's right. Every other good reason still works. Do you really believe France is in another galaxy ?
After reading you, I suggest you start a politician's carrier in France. The Ministry of Work could soon be vacated...

PS : Thanks also to ATC watcher whose post was much more accurate than mine.

[Squawk7777]

QUOTE
At Paris Charles de Gaulle airport on 25 May 2000 the co-pilot of a Streamline
Shorts 330freighter was killed when the wingtip of an Air Libert‚ Boeing MD-83that had been cleared for its take-off cut into the cockpit as the 330 was entering the active runway.The MD-83 pilot abandoned take-off. The controller thought the 330 was following the MD-83 to the same holding point, but the Shorts was preparing to start its take-off on the same runway from a taxiway intersection 1,000m (3,280ft) along it. Visibility was poor, but to exacerbate the situation, the controller was talking to Air Libert‚ in French and to Streamline in English. The Streamline pilots did not understand French.

WTF !!!!

WTF is right when you read the accident report. The pilots of the Shorts 330 did NOT adhere to sterile cockpit procedures, so the language that is being transmitted doesn't matter in this case. They didn't listen/guard the frequency, and unfortunately the other parties didn't catch the tragic mistake and many people had to pay the price. To blatantly suggest that is was entirely due to non-English R/T procedures is preposterous. :yuk:

SquawkEmergency...

I have flown to EVERY Country in Central/South America...and have lived and worked for many years in 3 different countries in Africa...

The difference is France purports itself to be a First World nation...Not 3rd world...Get on the bus or walk...join the modern world or be prepared to be classified otherwise...

Good for you! So you know how to prepare and stay on top of things instead of just whining and complaining how dangerous "non-English" R/T is. When I first flew into Latin America, my Spanish was nil; however, I never felt unsafe. :) Besides? How do you define modern? Sticking to only one language to me is a regression.

and 7777 does not mean emergency btw

Interestingly, all this whining about non-English ATC at pprune is 95% directed at the French. It seems to me after reading various comments, that it has really nothing to do much about safety, but another bashing against the French and using their language. Where are the complaints on this board about the Germans, Italians, Spanish (non LA), Russians etc.? :ugh:

... English (Universal Language of International Aviation) ...

Incorrecto (if you are referring to English only). Do some research!

Having flown on both sides of the Atlantic my observation is that monoglots complain about everything that is not in their limited box, starting from non-English ATC, then US ATC, then foreign accents etc. Bi-lingual individuals however don't seem to mind even if they are not familiar with that particular R/T language being used. On a personal note and experience, the biggest complainers at my last airline in the UK about the French and their R/T, were the ones that kept on chatting to the f/a up to the FAF, including training captains. So, who is not really paying attention here? := :ugh:

I got my issues with UK ATC, too. In my past experience, some R/T was worded so complicated that even some UK copilots were uncertain about the instruction requested and demanded clarification. I am not bashing or protecting any country here in particular, but some arguments are just being made to ridicule. Old argument, reappearing on pprune... :zzz:

If you don't like being in a foreign environment, stick to national flying. As previously asked:

Can't we just get along?

Because certain people don't want to. Period. :yuk:

[maybepilot]

Why can't we keep it simple stupid?
Why can't we just do a survey between pilots and see where they deem the service to be up to standard and where they find it to be below?

Talking about Europe I am ready to bet that between France,Spain,Italy and Greece they will score the lowest.
There must be a reason for that and those who provide the service in those countries should ask themselves a few questions, if they want to improve that is...

[Chesty Morgan]

The argument about being bilingual, or not mono-lingual, is invalid.

The reason why there should be one standard language in aviation is just that. So it is a standard.

As pilots we fly to a lot of different countries. As controllers you speak to a lot of pilots from a lot of different countries. Your argument suggests that we should be able to speak, or at least understand, the language of every country that we fly to, which is a ridiculous proposition.

The reason we should have a standard language is so we can have standard, unambiguous phraseology, that everybody understands and everybody can use to increase their situational awareness.

Squawk 7777,

Where are the complaints on this board about the Germans, Italians, Spanish (non LA), Russians etc.?

The Germans speak exceptional English and they even speak English to each other, 99% of the time anyway. Their controlling skills are, I suggest, on a par with the UK. No complaints there.

There are at least two threads running at the moment concerning Spanish ATC and their failings.

[BrATCO]

Let's take a 5 year's training and speak... (wait for it)... Esperanto !
No more difference, no more jealousy, no more cheating possiblity, no more argueing on the frequency.
Level 4 for every kind of people around the world.:ok:

ICAO has just to chose the date.

[Chesty Morgan]

BrATCO, lets make it Mandarin Chinese as that is the most popular language spoken worldwide:}

[Lon More]

English is now the mandated international language (http://www.aviation-esl.com/ICAO_English.htm)

The International Civil Aviation Organisation has decreed that from 1 January 2008 all Air Traffic Controllers and Flight Crew Members engaged in or in contact with international flights must be proficient in the English language as a general spoken medium and not simply have a proficiency in standard ICAO Radio Telephony Phraseology.

This has important implications for all aircrew and controllers. Those who do not have proficiency must acquire it by that date or risk removal from international flight routes.


So how come there are still so many Americans employed in aviation?:E

BTW I think any flight crew regularly operating into an area where another language is regularly used on the R?T should make an effort to pick up a few of the most important phrases. Even if you don't try to use them it all adds to the situational awareness

[BrATCO]

Chesty Morgan, I couldn't agree more !

What about the accent's issue ?

[windytoo]

The trouble is with the above ideas, which both have merit, is that only the British would bother to learn the required language , which the CAA would rigourously enforce. The usual suspects would continue to speak their own languages and destroy everybody else's situational awareness as they do at the moment.

[wings folded]

What was the point of going on strike last Thursday, especially for a proposed reform that's only just a proposal at the moment and on which parliament hasn't yet voted.

Errr, well, when the proposal has been voted in as law, is it not just a little bit late to strike?

[Squawk7777]

The Germans speak exceptional English and they even speak English to each other, 99% of the time anyway. Their controlling skills are, I suggest, on a par with the UK. No complaints there.


Disagree. Holder of the German BZF 2 (if that RT license still exists) can still communicate in German and I have heard so flying into a couple of German airports, plus there's the frequent chatter in German. 99% is grossly exaggerated. Controlling skills of the French ATC are on pair with the UK, Germany, Netherlands etc. what I have experienced but I am sure certain people will dig for exemptions and demonize those.

Referring to the international language being English there's also a document that states that the language of the ATCO and pilot can be used if both so agree. Can't find it right now :{ :ugh:

The usual suspects would continue to speak their own languages and destroy everybody else's situational awareness as they do at the moment.

Does that include reading the paper and/or working on your crossword puzzle? I never felt my situational awareness being compromised in a foreign language ATC environment. The argument doesn't really hold when you consider military traffic on UHF.

[GarageYears]

Do the language provisions reduce the need to use standardized phraseology?
Absolutely not! In fact, the language provisions adopted in November 2003 reinforce the case for the use of standardized phraseology (See Annex 10, Volume II, paragraph 5.1.1.1). Pilots and controllers shall use ICAO standardized phraseology in all situations for which it has been specified and resort to plain language in radiotelephony communications only when standardized phraseology cannot serve an intended transmission.


In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?
Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.
For more information, please refer to Annex 1, Chapter 1, paragraph 1.2.9 and Attachment to Annex 1, and also to Annex 10, Volume II, Chapter 5. Please, also refer to the FAQ "Guidance on the evaluation of language proficiency" (http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm#29).


Are all members of the flight crew required to meet the language proficiency requirements?
All pilots shall meet the language proficiency requirements when they fly internationally. The provisions contained in Annex 10 (Chapter 5, former paragraphs 5.2.1.2.3 and 5.2.1.2.4), which allowed the use of interpreters, have been withdrawn.


In what intervals shall language proficiency be demonstrated?
The ICAO Standards on language proficiency require that aeroplane and helicopter pilots, air traffic controllers and aeronautical station operators who demonstrate proficiency below the Expert Level (Level 6) shall be formally evaluated at intervals in accordance with an individual's demonstrated proficiency level. The interval will have to be established by each Civil Aviation Authority. ICAO is recommending an interval of six years for those at the Extended Level (Level 5) and three years for those at the Operational Level (Level 4).

So, from the horse's mouth...:cool:

- GY

[Avman]

It might be true that light a/c at smaller airfields in Germany might be heard to conduct their r/t in German. However, my experience is that in all other cases a/c and ATC use English for all pertinent (i.e. safety related) communications.

[Squawk7777]

It might be true that light a/c at smaller airfields in Germany might be heard to conduct their r/t in German. However, my experience is that in all other cases a/c and ATC use English for all pertinent (i.e. safety related) communications.

That would mean that the holder of a (former?) BZF2 would have only been allowed to smaller, non-commercial airfields which was not the case. Two airports that come to my mind recently, are DUS and STR. Both times t/o, landing and taxi clearances were given only in German.

Avman & co., we could make a hamster wheel out of this based on your, mine and other people's experience. This argument has been going back and forth ever since I registered with this bb. Fact is, more than one language is spoken on this planet and for those whose native language is the "international one" they will press to make it the only language to be used. For the other ones it's vice versa. It really comes down to subconscious nationalism/culturalism /whatever-ism more than anything else. Looking at the Latin America dual-language ATC thread that is probably about two years old and awaiting resurrection, I can understand the opposite arguments as well as some arguments brought up on this one (and it's not a Spanish-language failing one like CM suggests). My take on it is that it has more to do with anti-xxx and xxx-ism than safety (and usually gets blamed on France). Some arguments can be tossed back & forth with a greater endurance than the latest marathon Wimbledon match. :zzz:

[5milesbaby]

Just to add fuel to the French fire, their habits are now affecting the southern parts of the UK airspace as we are now getting complaint calls when we transfer aircraft to them cleared to a point beyond the UK FIR boundary fix (ie. a mini short cut :eek:).

There are several other issues going on too that are trying to be resolved, however if Brest get their way (sorry BrATCO but it is your centre being the most difficult) then the UK procedures will have to change further creating an even worse situation than already exists.

Can't believe none of the Ryanair pilots have come on complaining about the Brest refusal to work aircraft inbound to certain destinations as far as 300nm south of the UK FIR boundary so they have to be level capped with Paris maximum FL270. Now THAT has to hurt fuel burn, the environment..... :}

[Denti]

Well, british RT behaviour affects quite a large area beyond its FIR boundaries, especially the damnable practice PAN stuff.

As to Squawk7777, quite correct, in german english is only the primary language in IFR RT, for planes flying under VFR both german and english can be used and in fact german is in many cases the primary one as most VFR pilots sadly are not proficient in english.

[Chesty Morgan]

Squawk 7777,

Disagree. Holder of the German BZF 2 (if that RT license still exists) can still communicate in German

Firstly I didn't say they can't communicate in English. What I said was that 99% of the time that I spend flying in Germany the Germans speak English to other Germans, very well. And that is not an exaggeration as 100% of the flying I do in Germany is IFR so Denti is supporting my opinion. And just because I have mentioned that German controlling is very good does not mean that I consider everyone else to be worse.

Secondly I didn't suggest that the problems with Spanish ATC were Spanish Language failings. I simply pointed out, in answer to your question, that there are two threads running concerning Spanish ATC at the moment.

My opinion, if you want it, is that, generally ATC in Europe is pretty good. However, there are specific countries that excel at what they do.

There are occasions when I have cause to complain about ATC but I'll put that down to the individual controlling at the time and as I don't know what kind of day they are having I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and remain emotionless and professional about any problems I encounter. There are no anti-isms or anything else race or nationality related, as far as I am concerned.

I do agree with you that this is an eternal argument and all we can do is remain professional when we are communicating. Speak clearly and slowly like you were taught and we'll all get along like a house on fire.

[BrATCO]

5milesbaby, don't be sorry, I'm glad we can communicate.

I think you're reffering to flows DVL and RESMI.
Big problem there !
Could be a thread by itself ("ATC Issues" ?). But I would like not to answer here, if you don't mind.
Includes the level capping.
I don't know if I can help you as I didn't participate the thinktank.

Just to add fuel to the French fire, their habits are now affecting the southern parts of the UK airspace as we are now getting complaint calls when we transfer aircraft to them cleared to a point beyond the UK FIR boundary fix (ie. a mini short cut http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif).


Regarding the mini short cuts, here is MY answer.
I think that's a major issue, pilots are concerned too and everyone here deserves an explanation.
I insist ! This is MY PERSONAL ANSWER, my feeling, nothing more. I could be mistaking all the way long.

You're right, you're adding fuel... and here is my match.


I've worked in ATC for 20 years and I had never seen such a mess.

Someone, up there, has decided that we have now to stick to the rules : work more, split sectors,...
As previously explained in this thread, splitting sectors increases safety, but decreases flow improvement possibilities (use of flow management,routes, RFL,...)
A traffic overflow on a "non-splitable"(basic) sector might rapidly become desastrous. No way out, no backup...

Some of you may remember the DCTs we used to give : LORKU-STG or KORUL-INSUN, PON-RATKA/TAKAS (500 NM), PON-STG (600 NM). We can't do that anymore.

A direct must be co-ordinated before being given.
We used to give directs with no coordination through 5 or 6 sectors. This is, and was, forbidden (correct me if I'm wrong).
Since the "stick to the rule" thing has been implemented, believe me, a direct is really hard to get by day (easier during nights : less sectors, less coordinations)

Everyone in the control room is on the deck to improve the system. ie FMP, supervisors, ... to find the best configurations. We sometimes change our scheme every 30min to fit the traffic as best we can.
Maybe you've noticed there are more and more micro-directs since a few days. Maybe not. We still need trimming (indeed !)
ATC is a team job and we've got to find the direction where to push toghether.
Screaming on us won't help...but feel free.

And, please, believe me, we're doing our best in regard of the present situation.
If I say "Call you back" and I don't call you back, the reason might be that I still don't have the answer to your question.

I'd like to get back to the "ancient" methods, but I don't know how (and when) this will all be sorted out. I wish it could have been done before this summer, but...
Some collegues are threatened of punishment for not having followed the new rules. Not ATC rules, management rules.(So much for our worldwide renowned status, must please some ones !:D ACCP, if you read me...)

5milesbaby, as far as I'm concerned, that's a reason for the calls.
Please coordinate the directs, you should get them if that helps you, but let me and my collegues take the responsability in our sectors. Or stick to the LOA... Sorry.

All right,now. Shoot at will.

[Bidalot]

in fact german is in many cases the primary one as most VFR pilots sadly are not proficient in english:ugh:
are you still struggeling with the 4:1 ??????? :E

[T21]

If every pilot had to learn a little of each language spoken by each country then you would need an extra years training for their ATPL.

The fact is that in each country the schools teach their own language and at least one other foreign language. That other language in ( roughly ) 95% of the cases is English.

In my experience of travelling around the world this means that a lot of the natives to those countries either speak English as their first or second language.

It is therefore just good luck for us English/ Americans/ Canadians/ New Zealanders/ Australians etc.

English, therefore, is the international language by default. It does not make me lazy as an Englishman as a none speaker of French or Spanish or Portugese or Russian etc because I only learnt German and Latin at school as secondary languages.

So I repeat, English like it or not is the international language understood by all commercial pilots. So use it all of the time.

T21

[maybepilot]

In the last 30 years, apart when they where on strike, I never had less than the most professional services by french ATC. :}:}:}:}:}:}

One of the funniest posts I read here in the past 30 years!!!!!

[D O Guerrero]

I-FORD, you must be using the Premium French ATC, because even after only a few years of experience of international flying, I would not describe it in the way you do. The area controllers are generally ok, but I have seen some real blithering incompetence on tower and approach frequencies. I've lost count of the number of times I've called to get the latest weather and been cleared for start or something completely unrelated to what I asked for. I've had to do a GA because the Tower started a conversation in French with a GA pilot after forgetting to clear us to land. Speaking of which - I fly a jet into a lot of small French airfields often with lots of GA aircraft around. I am really tired of not having the slightest clue where other aircraft are (funnily enough I am not massively confident in being separated from them) in the circuit because I can't understand a word of what is being said (and I can speak rudimentary French!).

I think we all understand that English isn't the easiest language to learn and doing a technical job in a foreign language must be very difficult - I'm lucky I don't need to. But as mentioned above, the Germans, Dutch, Norwegians, Austrians, Polish, Swedish and countless other ATS providers seem to manage superbly.

I'll admit to being concerned that preferential treatment is being given to national carriers when people are speaking a language I can't understand. But if you ask many of the international crew I fly with - they'll tell you that this is EXACTLY what happens. Particularly in Spain. I've been denied our requested flight level because an Iberia aircraft was asked if they would like it (in Spanish) instead of us on more than one occasion.

[Squawk7777]

Sounds to me more like a problem with (an) individual controller(s) than an entire ATC system!

[ATC Watcher]

Sounds just like Ryanair :E . Am I wrong ?

Are by chance the same pilot that declared on a " Charentais airport " Frequency some time back something like :

"I am a big jet, I am coming once a week to bring your small local airfield prosperity benefits , so get rid of that local GA traffic that is bothering us "

[D O Guerrero]

ATC Watcher - don't be a pillock. I am more than happy to share the skies with everyone and always have been for the 16 years I've been flying. I just want to know where they are located so that I can do my best to avoid getting too close to them - and this would be much easier if I could understand what is being said. Not a lot to ask really - almost everyone else seems to manage it.

I find it very hard to believe that anyone would say this - however, in the scenario you describe, when there is an aircraft doing 200 Knots with upto 195 people onboard, once a week - perhaps talking in English to everyone for the 10 minutes or so that is required, might be in everyone's best interests?

[ATC Watcher]

Don't know what a "pillok" is but I guess it is not meant as a compliment .

On the second part of your message you are right of course, no disagreement here. VFR/VMC and airport OPS are where the single language has its most benefits. Problem is that the rules and the culture cannot be changed as fast an airline schedule addition . RYR posed a real challenge in the small French local mini airports it now serves and that is a real safety issue in itself.
The French DGAC has recently upgraded to class D all the CTRs where RYR is flying to , but the GA activity, aero-clubs , gliders and parachutists club which until now ( and some for over 70 years ) have been the traditional users of those local fields have not changed their ways and culture from one day to another. Remember Gliders pilots and parachutists are not required to speak english ( not affected by JAR-OPS) , but are using the same airspace as you in class E, F and G , when you are approaching those CTRs.

[cribble]

:ok:
Watcher,
FWIW, A quick Google of "pillock" will confirm your initial analysis.

[BrATCO]

I decided to delete parts of this message (the donkey who it was adressed to isn't worth it).
-
I'll keep the part that has been quoted :
-

Have a look :

AuditReports1-CSA (http://www.icao.int/fsix/auditRep1_icvm.cfm)

-
-

[Lemurian]

BrATCO,
That post seemed to have shut the imbeciles on this thread up.
That ICAO audits report is an absolute gem.
I was part - an interested and active part - in that english fiasco at CDG.
See the culprits in some of the most reactionary pilot unions, especially of that time ( I'm talking about the exIT guys ).
Sad I was when it failed, but now i'm bloody glad French is still there, just because of the French-nbashing we get all the time. my way of showing the finger.
After all, if they don't like it, I'm not forcing them to come here.
And it's funny how the same people get the favour treatment from their own national ATC : how many times have I been passed into LHR by the speedbird that took off five to ten minutes behind me.
Hypocrites.

[p_perez]

BrATCO:
By the way, have a look at this :

AuditReports1-CSA (http://www.icao.int/fsix/auditRep1_icvm.cfm)

I recon ICAO is supposed to be a kind of reference in air related business.



Wow!

Simply impressive!

Congratulations! This will hopefully shut some big mouth around here ...

Let´s see how we score in Spain, but you guys left the mark really high!

Saludos!

[BrATCO]

I just want to know where they are located so that I can do my best to avoid getting too close to them

I don't know where you land in France, but there should be a class D TMA (at least a CTR)

As far as I remember my APP career,

VFR flights (planes and hellos, I mean) should be controled and they should sqwak C.
The controler should give you traffic informations in english. And give them traffic informations in french.
You're a 195 passengers plane. Don't worry, usually a VFR flight will see you at first glance.

I'm not aware enough about pilot's procedures, so I'll ask you the question : Can you disconnect the TA/RA things on your TCAS and use it as an help to get visual contact ?

If you are on an IFR approach, you should be number one as soon as you are on final (ish), controller will make so that VFRs yield to you.
As an IFR flight, you must be number one to get a visual approach, VFRs will yield (I might be mistaking on this one, 'cause some things have changed since I moved to ACC. Or maybe, this was one of my "outlaw's" method ?)

I used to give a sqawk C to the VFRs on runway patterns. That wasn't a "stick to the rule" procedure either, but it sometimes helped me find out that trainees had forgotten turning on downwind, then vector them back to the field (with no need to explain where the sqwak's buttons are in a C152 when they start pannicking). I know, Radar vector a VFR below the Minimum Safe Radar Altitude is absolutely not in the book !:eek:

Anyway, the controller doesn't want to be scared either. He gets your details and identification some minutes before your first call him. He has prepared his traffic to fit with your arrival.
ie : descend the VFRs at least 500' below your first cleared altitude, or get a horizontal separation margin (twice the minimum was my method with a fast IFR).
The controler doesn't owe you Ifr/Vfr spacing in the TMA, but usually, he provides it anyway (= class C ish airspace), without saying. Neither in french, nor in english. So he doesn't have to provide informations... (Maybe that's why you don't get the traffic infos !)
I'm gessing here, but this controller and me attended the same basic course...

I think the best, if you don't trust the controller, (if you've got time) is to ask (on the freq?) and get up there in the bowl.

You said you speak a bit of french. They are level 4 (at least)in english, you could share your worries with them.
Maybe they will share a coffee with you. And in the end, you could end up reassured on their methods and they might trim some procedures to help you if something sticks at first. (You might have something to change too !)

[BrATCO]

Congratulations! This will hopefully shut some big mouth around here ...



Thank you very much !

My aim there was just the "big mouths".

I don't really care who's got the "biggest".
We're meant to work all together... Pilots... Controlers... Together...
Wherever the plane is...

Do I hit some minds here ?

[garp]

@ BrATCO I see very few issues if your spoken English is as good as your written English. Tx for your honest and insightful reply.

[His dudeness]

Sad I was when it failed, but now i'm bloody glad French is still there, just because of the French-nbashing we get all the time. my way of showing the finger.
After all, if they don't like it, I'm not forcing them to come here

Interesting attitude. Very french, I dare to say.

However, I (usually) fly where my employer wants me to. Little do I care to go to Paris (Le Bourget in my case) but I have no choice.

Bon jour !

[Lemurian]

Don't even know how to spell and how to use a greeting !

Sheeeesh !!!

I (usually) fly where my employer wants me to
One of the uses of striking is to tell one's employer that we don't want to go there, unless he pays ...a lot.
Servility is not in our agenda.

[Jet Jockey A4]

I can’t believe all the hoop la about the French ATC system and the use of French on the airways.

For the record I am Canadian and yes my primary language is French although I consider myself perfectly bilingual because my parents raised us that way (French and English).

I flew based out of Paris (Orly) for almost 3 years back in the late 80s and early 90s. I have been flying worldwide since. I often fly in Europe and I have NEVER encountered problems with the French ATC system or the use of French on the airways.

I just came back from a 5 day trip to France and was handled by Brest, Bordeaux, Marseille and Paris. All were very professional and courteous. Our requests for deviations around weather, climbs, descents and even direct routing to cut corners and save time were generally accepted in a prompt matter.

Yes I do speak French to the French controllers in France as I do in Montreal and the Ottawa ATC sectors here in Canada. Although most professional pilots speak good enough English to communicate properly with ATC some of the amateur pilots flying in both eastern Canada and I suspect in France (and other countries) do not have a proper command of the English language to communicate properly with ATC. This would also apply in Germany, Italy, Spain and so on.

I would much rather have them speak in French to ATC than have them enter some restricted airspace like a control zone around a major airport without communicating with the tower (because they would be unable to do so in english) in others words sneak in and out of the zone in a “NORDO” type scenario like they use to do before French was available to them in some sectors of Canada. Believe me this is a lot safer to all concerned.

Finalement, mes salutations aux cousins français!

Just my $0.02.

[maybepilot]

BrATCO,

according to the ICAO report you posted France scored higher than the UK, Germany,the Netherlands,Sweden and is more or less even with the USA and Canada....
One wonders why so many pages of complaints from the users (the pilots) about France and none about the lower scoring countries.....:E:E:E

[ATC Watcher]

One wonders why so many pages of complaints from the users (the pilots) about France and none about the lower scoring countries.....

The answer is in the title : the ICAO survey is about implementation levels of safety critical elements , not a bout the perceived notion of service level.
Two totally different things.

The audit looked if systems were in place , not how the work is done in practice. A good example is on licencing and Certification : the UK scores 7 and France 10. The French system architechture on those fields is probably better, but in reality certainly not. Unlike the UK there is no independant regulator / certificacing body in France, French controllers do not have a license, and the competency verification of the hours worked to validate the license is declarative for controllers ( while it is independant via a logging system in the UK CAA).
In other words,what the ICAO audit say for that part is that the Licensing administration works better in France than in the UK. Not that , for instance actual licensing of Controllers is better.

[BrATCO]

French controllers do not have a license, and the competency verification of the hours worked to validate the license is declarative for controllers
I've had a valid european licence for 5 or 6 years now.(The one I have in my drawer is the second version)
The worked hours were not counted. Since the beginning of the month, we sign in. (in my point of view, the reason for the "direct's mess" in Brest. cf one of my previous posts, lack of adaptability...)

One wonders why so many pages of complaints from the users (the pilots) about France and none about the lower scoring countries..
I think I saw a complaint about China somewhere...

I might be mistaking, but I think most of the complaints come from UK pilots.
There could be the "speaking french" problem.
Really easy to solve, at least in Brest where most of the pilots are english speaking. Why not say "Only English speaking at and above FL300 ?".
I would like it, if it could solve a problem... not sure it would.
But, once more, there should be a change in rules.

Other "could be" problem.
There's a Trafalgar Square, a Waterloo station in UK. We've got a Boulevard Lafaillette and so on.
Maybe some have forgotten that none of us was born in 1066...

The "thumb down" symbol in front of "French ATC" in the title of this thread doesn't help.
If I was to create a "XXYY ATC":yuk: thread, I guess the result wouldn't be exactly the same as with a "Let's talk about the XXYY ATC issue":D.

I decided toregister here after 3 pages of being executed with no trial. A lot of destructive messages.
I don't know how other countries deal with that, but in French aviation, a complaint must be filed on a factual basis, in order to try and find a solution.

Yes I do speak French to the French controllers
The so exotic and chanting Canadian accent I hear from time to time would really miss me if my above solution was implemented someday.
But don't believe, you Canadian, that you will be treated better because you speak French !
C'est ce qu'ils croient tous, j'ai l'impression... A bientôt.
(I'm afraid they all believe you'll be... hear you soon)

my way of showing the finger.

Interesting attitude. Very french, I dare to say.

Maybe a good exemple.
Facts, please. Only facts.
This is my way of showing the finger :ok:
We are 65 millions English and 65 millions French. Why on earth should there be only one English attitude and one French attitude ?
Nevertheless, I do agree, some French attitudes sometimes shock me. Some English attitudes shock me also. So is it about Germans, Swiss, Americans,...

Doesn't affect the technical stuff, does it ?
Yes, it could. As attitude is part of the Team Ressource Management stuff.
By reading this thread (at least the beginning), not sure that every English is better than every French on the attitude.
Attitude works both ways. You can't "attitude" alone, can you ?

if your spoken English is as good as your written English

Is this when the crow lets the cheese fall ?
I thaught every body here was just polite enough not to make remarks on my faults.
I guess written and spoken are linked. Someone in a pub, in Edimburgh told me I've got a German accent.

[maybepilot]

I might be mistaking, but I think most of the complaints come from UK pilots.

Yes you are mistaken.
I find Spanish,French and Italian ATC to be the worst in the EU, in this exact order, as far as quality of service provided.

In the French case it's not only a language issue like french spoken to local carriers and poor english spoken to others but also a mix of procedural practices like the one having me 'to be level in 3 minutes maximum" when I have to loose 10k feet in a heavy aircraft showing complete lack of knowledge of aircraft performance.
Once I replied "I'll do my best to accomodate your request, this is not an helicopter"
Marseille said "I'm sure you are able to comply"
Since then my reply is always: "unable"

By the way, i'm not from the UK.

[Chesty Morgan]

maybepilot, are you always unable to comply or are you just being pig headed? Would you say the same to an English controller?

10,000' in 3 minutes = 3,333'/m. Fairly comfortable really.

[CptRegionalJet]

@maybepilot
....ever been to Greece?:hmm:

[BrATCO]

I thought I wrote "most"...

You seem to have a problem with Marseille ATC on a particular descent.

As far as I'm concerned, in Brest, I say as much as possible :
" Descend FL xxx, be leveled by (or abeam if a direct has been given), start at discretion".
Usually, let's say often, pilots start late and take around 3000'/min or even more. Not far from 10000 ft in 3 min.
Would it help if the controler told you, at first contact "..., expect FL xxx by XXXXX, report for lower " ? (That's what I do. Do you think it helps?)

In this case, you would wait for the clearance and tell the controler that if he doesn't give you the clearance soon, you will be unable.
So he can give you the clearance on time for your machine (which seems to be diferent from the traffic this controler had that day) or find another solution with the following sector...
(which shouldn't occur, as you called back for lower in time...)

[maybepilot]

10,000' in 3 minutes = 3,333'/m. Fairly comfortable really.

A heavy A/C that has to descent through rough air and therefore slow down as well wouldn't do the maneuver fairly comfy.
At this point the high yield customer sitting a couple of rows behind me has the priority over the frenchmen.

By the way, when flying through France I often play pig headed.
What you give is what you get they say....

[Chesty Morgan]

So now you're qualifying your statement with rough air and reducing speed.

Why not say that in the first place instead of ommiting it to try and prove that French ATC aren't up to standard.

So, ATC would have had a fairly good idea of your aircraft performance except you didn't tell them you were having to slow down because of turbulence.

Seems to me that you have just admitted to very poor, basic, airmanship.

And no customer, no matter how much they paid for their ticket, takes priority over the safe and efficient flow of air traffic.

[maybepilot]

I-FORD,

Spanish/French ATC give me a hard time?Fine.
But don't expect anything different from me then.

If nationality counts in your equation then I'm of mixed origines: half from southern and half from northern Europe.:ok:

[maybepilot]

And no customer, no matter how much they paid for their ticket, takes priority over the safe and efficient flow of air traffic.

They usually give me vectors, which throws them by the nervousness with which they cope with my inability to please them, but that's life isn't it?
That's what you get for having me descent 100nm before my FPL descent point and after denying different levels and directs.

P.S.: 3300ft/min at heavy weights is almost an emergency decent with some machinery.

[BrATCO]

I wish there were no problem with origins.

So, that was a fake...(the post, not the writer) Where is the camera ?

Maybepilot, you seem to be a bit of a spoiler. The thing that comes out from time to time and pulls backwards when people tend to push forwards.
In order to help, would you mind answering my questions ? Or did I just spit in the wind ? Would it help ?

And, by the way, if a controler tells you to be leveled in 3 minutes, might be because there's traffic around. He might talk to you not only to let the time go by...

[maybepilot]

And, by the way, if a controler tells you to be leveled in 3 minutes, might be because there's traffic around.

A while ago I asked what was the reason since the sun wasn't even up and my TCAS was showing nobody in my way, the answer was LOA.
Between your LOA and my high yield customer just waking up after along journey I give priority to the latter.
Especially if you haven't been kind to me lately.:E

In order to help, would you mind answering my questions ? Or did I just spit in the wind ? Would it help ?

Sure if you gave me a specific point by which to be steady (possibly along my normal descent profile) and the freedomg to start my descent when ready it would help.
But speaking english to all traffic would also help my situational awareness as would improving your language skills or more flexibility with regard to levels and re-routings.

[Chesty Morgan]

And is "Maximum 3 minutes" not specific enough for you?

[maybepilot]

And is "Maximum 3 minutes" not specific enough for you?

In a co-operative and mutually friendly environment I could even do the maths, pull the speed brakes,increase my speed and try to please the guy sitting behind his radar screen.
In today's pathetic situation I just don't that.

[Surferboy]

@Maybepilot: Ever stopped to think why there is a LOA? Ever had a good TCAS explanation? Did it ever occur to you that ATCo's aren't providing a service to individual pilots, but to Airlines?

[BrATCO]

A while ago I asked what was the reason since the sun wasn't even up and my TCAS was showing nobody in my way

Sun is not a factor.
Your TCAS shows only the present situation. You know where the surrounding traffic is, but you don't know where it goes.(here, I could come back to language and comprehension of the situation)
Sometimes, you have to descend early just in order to land on your destination, but you can't see that on your TCAS.

Let me give you an example :

Planes going to Paris CDG via ANG have to be there FL 280 (which is quite low) 50 miles too soon, I guess.
First reason : Paris has to sequence them ASAP. Being at FL 280 gives them a chance to fly IAS and except some "big machines", most of the traffic becomes "compatible".

Second reason : if they are not at that level, they enter another sector dealing with London's and Paris' departures. By definition, if he's not below, he's above. A bit harder to deal with, but why not.
So the plane, instead of being below, has to cross 5 different flows in a sector that didn't even waited him...Why not. Let's say he was awaited.
Now, he's above departures from London and Paris, AND arrivals to Brussels let's start the descent... "be level in 3 min"/"unable"... "Roger, radar..." .... OOPs a bit late, now. Here come the departures from Brussels, Franckfurt, Luxemburg, there's another departure flow from London... and the arrival to Paris is still up high above everybody, where (not when) it should be established on final...
Maybe a rerouting via Hamsterdam will be the solution.

This exemple is a bit long, but it represents a 6 minutes' situation, around 50 miles... The distance you wanted to save.

Nothing to do with friendliness. But a bit of cooperation can, indeed, help. Procedures have been thought about by far better controlers than I am.

[maybepilot]

Ever stopped to think why there is a LOA?

Sure, the explanation i got was something about politics between different radar sectors regardless of actual conditions.

Ever had a good TCAS explanation?

Had 1 TCAS RA event in the last 2 years when someone was climbing like a rocket below me, who knows maybe he was given some frenchy clearance to reach a level "in 3 minutes maximum":}:}:}

Did it ever occur to you that ATCo's aren't providing a service to individual pilots, but to Airlines?

Lately, in some countries, it seems they are providing a service solely to themselves.

[Avman]

BrATCO, bottom line is that the majority of pilots just do not have a clue about the myriad of complex and restrictive LOAs controllers have to work by. Not only should ATCOs be able to take regular FD rides but pilots should all be made to spend a couple of days at a busy ACC. This might then prevent them (such as complete to$$ers like maybepilot) from making ridiculous statements and accusations based on complete ignorance as they often do on these forums.

[max1]

Maybepilot,

Suggest you visit a centre VERY soon, ask any questions you like.
You will be surprised in the what, and why, is required in airspace design and procedures.
Have a GOOD read of BrATCOs last post. Build yourself a mental picture of the airspace.
You may not be getting an optimal ride. There are probably some good reasons behind it, that don't include just for 'controller amusement'.

[maybepilot]

his might then prevent them (such as complete to$$ers like maybepilot) from making ridiculous statements and accusations based on complete ignorance as they often do on these forums.


Stating that the level of English is very poor when flying into Spain or France or that the use of local language greatly reduces situational awareness are not ridiculous statements nor accusations, it's the plain truth.

You would like me to fly my airplane as filed and do what I am told to do without requesting anything from you, well the PIC has the final authority as per legislation and the word "unable" is more and more often used in my vocabulary.

Thanks goodness we also fly to other countries where ATC is still a good and user friendly service being provided....

[BrATCO]

Avman,
That's right. There seems to be a slight problem on that point.
Maybe that's the reason why I spend hours here, trying to explain and understand.
I hope all this will help a bit.


Had 1 TCAS RA event in the last 2 years when someone was climbing like a rocket below me, who knows maybe he was given some frenchy clearance to reach a level "in 3 minutes maximum"

And maybe he was climbing higher than his RFL, and maybe you (or him) had asked for a direct, got it, and you (or him) shouldn't have been there at that time regarding the flow control. So, maybe, because of you (or him), there was a traffic overflow...In the end, whose fault is it ?
Don't answer : that's the controler's responsability. Which ATCo ? The one who screwed the clearance or the one who gave the direct ?

Just would like you to think about it before grumbeling when a direct or a level is refused nowaday's in France. And I swear I hope this situation will stop soon.

[maybepilot]

And maybe he was climbing higher than his RFL, and maybe you (or him) had asked for a direct, got it, and you (or him) shouldn't have been there at that time regarding the flow control. So, maybe, because of you (or him), there was a traffic overflow...In the end, whose fault is it ?
Don't answer : that's the controler's responsability. Which ATCo ? The one who screwed the clearance or the one who gave the direct ?

A controller with a decent level of english could solve the thing by just saying "you've got crossing traffic 1000ft above in XXX miles, suggest you reduce your rate of climb".
By the way, next time you fly in the back of an airplane I hope you fly your FPL filed level straight through a TS or for 1 hour through turbulence with the child sitting next to you vomiting on your shoes so you will know what it feels to be out there in the hands of people like you.

[criss]

Maybepilot, now you're simply ridiculous... Who is flying the plane, you or ATC?

[Chesty Morgan]

maybepilot, use of the word unable when, in fact, you are able but you're just being selfish, ignorant and pig headed or just don't feel like doing something is completely unprofessional.

Regarding climb rates:

The ICAO Regional Supplementary Procedures for Europe (Doc 7030/4) do not specify vertical speed(s) for European RVSM airspace.

The EUROCONTROL ACAS Programme recommendation is that when operating within or outside of RVSM airspace, aircraft should be climbed or descended at a rate of less than 1000 feet per minute in the last 1000 feet to level off in order to avoid ACAS alerts, except that pilots shall comply with any climb/descent rates specified in an ATC clearance or instruction

suggest you reduce your rate of climb

It is up to you how you manage your climb or descent however, you can see (and you should know) that we should be limiting rates to 1000'/m in the final thousand feet to a cleared level.

If you are required to be level in 3 minutes then you have to account for the descent rate in the last 1000'. Be level in 3 minutes is not an instruction to maintain a set rate of climb or descent.

[BrATCO]

"you've got crossing traffic 1000ft above in XXX miles, suggest you reduce your rate of climb".


Sorry, unable to "suggest"... Or was that a non-controled airspace ? Could change a LOT !


I hope you fly your FPL filed level straight through a TS

Do you understate I could let you go through a TS ?

TS has to be avoided.
You deal with the TS, I deal with the traffic.

What's your point ?

[maybepilot]

Who is flying the plane, you or ATC?

That's the whole point, seems to me that between LOA's/rigid application of filed FPL's/no direct routings/no different levels and so on they would like to fly airplanes directly from their office desk.

[BrATCO]

That's the whole point, seems to me that between LOA's/rigid application of filed FPL's/no direct routings/no different levels and so on they would like to fly airplanes directly from their office desk.

This time, you could be right : SESAR is on it's way...:eek::yuk::{:mad::sad::ouch::(

[maybepilot]

Yep BrATCO, SESAR promises to deliver everything you don't provide now.
Hopefully it will revert the actual trend that has us pilots having to adapt inefficiently to ATC.

[Avman]

Yep BrATCO, SESAR promises to deliver everything you don't provide now.

I'll believe that when I see it in full swing.

Hopefully it will revert the actual trend that has us pilots having to adapt inefficiently to ATC.

If you want to blame controllers for your inefficient operation , you are directing your frustrations at the wrong people.

[maybepilot]

Someone has brought up SESAR, I will just copy/paste a couple of lines from their official website so you can go ahead take it out on Eurocontrol/JAA/FAA and all those ignorant who still think that today's ATC is inefficient:

Claude Godel was the Pilot in Command of the first complete green transatlantic flight, operated by Air France on 6 April from Paris-Charles de Gaulle to Miami.
In a first reaction after this green flight, Captain Godel describes it from a pilot’s perspective, “The AIRE flight is the almost perfect flight for a pilot. On a normal flight you never know how you will be incorporated in the traffic but you are sure that you will fly level at non optimal altitudes, have to beg ATC for better speed, better lateral track. In one word, you spend your time in negotiating or accepting non optimal compromises. The AIRE flight needs more pre-flight preparation but, once off-block, the pilot can expect to fly the best track from end to end, at the best speed and the best altitude. Isn’t that the pilot’s dream?”


P.S.: Enjoy the View, thanks goodness the above aren't the words of an Englishmen!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[BrATCO]

operated by Air France on 6 April from Paris-Charles de Gaulle to Miami

From Paris to Miami, this pilot was almost surely in contact with French ATC on departure. Thank you for proving we can be professional enough to "push" all the traffic away from this plane to let him enjoy his perfect flight.

6th of april wasn't the busiest day in history...

No compromise means no traffic, no weather. Easier during the nights from november to april. A bit more difficult today, or yesterday morning, with the TS...

How do we do when two green tracks are in conflict ? Who yields ? Who decides ?

[maybepilot]

How do we do when two green tracks are in conflict ? Who yields ? Who decides ?

We fly planned routes,CTOT's, planned levels, no directs....exactly as we do now.:E:E:E

P.S.: I like everything that SESARS promises to deliver, what is it exactly that you ATCO don't like about it?

[Tower Ranger]

Maybepilot you are first class entertainment, rarely does someone talk so negatively about ATC and yet quite obviously know and understand so little about it.
It must be so frustrating to get headings and speed control to keep you separated from other traffic which would otherwise just move out of the way for you. How inconvenient to be held at a level that hurts your fuel burn due to traffic.
You sound faintly ridiculous and I`m sure it`s not just the ATCO`s reading this who can see that.

[BrATCO]

Sesar is a dream. On the paper.

Let's talk trajectories.
They want to create them as short as possible.
What happens if a plane wants to go from London to Madrid, and an another one (same type, same weight) wants to go from Madrid to London?
Let's make as in some parts of the world : offset track 5 NM right.

Now, let's put another one from Porto to Brussels. And the way back.

The four of them have a meeting over the Atlantic at FL370 on their 4D trajectories calculated by one of the most up to date computers on this planet and... the controler has to deal with the situation.
The ATM computer part of SESAR can't deal with a four traffic conflict (even if the limit was 8).
As an ATCO, I don't want to be the one who will take the situation when the machine screws. My limit is around 8 steady conflicting aircraft (that's an exemple), if the machine's limit is 10 and it screws... then, good luck... "Sorry, unable..."
Your safety could be at stake there.
That's why I don't like it.

And there's also an issue about human factors. (too much assistance so more difficulties to stay focused)

What you are waiting for is the "free route" part of SESAR. On this, I do agree with you.
But it will never be a "free sky for you alone".

And it doesn't solve the airports' capacity problem.

[Squawk7777]

Thanks goodness we also fly to other countries where ATC is still a good and user friendly service being provided....

Since then my reply is always: "unable"

After reading your numerous posts against French and Spanish ATC that bear no or very little reason whatsoever I truly believe that you try to blame those ATC facilities for your personal problems. I find your attitude of "unable" not only unprofessional but also a tad dangerous because not only do you keep the controller busy and his or her workload high but you also make the life miserable for the rest of us flying in the same airspace. If you cannot handle that certain "directs" are denied, or listening to accents and foreign language transmission, then do us all a favor and vacate your pilot seat. There are lots of open-minded, professional and safe pilots out there (you certainly are not) that would like your job. maybepilot seems to explain a lot here.

I might be mistaking, but I think most of the complaints come from UK pilots.

I think so, too. The biggest complainers are usually the ones that don't pay attention to other (English) ATC calls, mull over their crossword puzzles in-flight, and chat to flight attendants during sterile cockpit, however they are the most snobbish pilots when they hear any accents or foreign-language ATC or radio calls (including US carriers). [referring to snobs, not to UK pilots in general :) ]

But don't believe, you Canadian, that you will be treated better because you speak French !
C'est ce qu'ils croient tous, j'ai l'impression... A bientôt.

N'oubliez pas "L'ignorance, c'est la force." :ugh: (Don't forget: ignorance is strength)

:yuk: thread

[maybepilot]

Folks,

someone wants to play this discussion at a nationalistic level, so please take a note of the fact that I'm not from the UK and that I can speak two more European languages apart from my level 4 English.
I don't really care where someone is coming from as long as they can provide a professional service.

Spanish and French ATCO's lately are working by the rule making pilots' and passengers' lives pretty miserable; that would be absolutely fine if they were also able to express themselves in the English language by the rule, place their mics at a distance from their mouths in order for the pilots to understand what they are trying to say, switch off their mobile phones while on duty, avoid having loud and lively breaks just behind the ATCO on duty and so on.
If you want to work by the rule you should do it all the way.

In the meanwhile I will do the same overhere and if I don't feel like putting too much effort into deviating from my filed flight plan I won't do it and will try to fly my airplane by the book as much as possible.


BrATCO,

so you don't like the SESAR project because you don't believe it will actually work, you actually say it will be technologically and humanly unsafe.
We both agree that what SESAR promises to deliver is much more efficient than what we have today right?
So what would be your idea in order to make today's system more efficient?
By the way, let me remind you the history of ACAS/TCAS where technology has gained priority over human intervention....thanks goodness!

[68+iou1]

So the JAL crew coming into Paris/Madrid after a 12 hour flight have the same level of situational awareness as if they were flying into London/Amsterdam?
Wake up and smell the roses!
It is a safety issue!

[andrijander]

Maybepilot, funny enough you complain about language issues, when you don't know even how to write and, as per your post, you're a level 4. Well I'm spanish and I've got level 5 (can't get 6, since english is not my mother tongue).

Yeah, I know, I'm limited since I'm not a pilot and I don't fly my toy into Spain and over France, but seriously, get good reasonings or desist altogether. Just ranting like that only shows your true colors. If you want the system to change you'll have to do it by convincing people in it to make a difference. Just pi$$ing people off and hoping to win the lottery (SESAR...or should we call it maybefutureATC?) well, it just won't take you anywhere but down frustration road.

68+iou1: that'll depend on the crew. I've seen, heard, spoken to some crews (asian in general, but some from N America too) just after departure from a big european airport (1 of the top 3) and no words can describe...how will they be after 12hours? only god can tell. We had once a flight plan, from a major asian carrier, stating in field 18: english speaking pilot on board. No comment.

[Squawk7777]

If you want to work by the rule you should do it all the way.

I do. And the rule states that I can use English or the national language for ATC comm.

Well I'm spanish and I've got level 5 (can't get 6, since english is not my mother tongue).

andrijander, I believe that this is a (temporary?) restriction by your country's DGAC. English is not my mother tongue, yet I was given level 6 by the UK CAA.

[andrijander]

Squawk7777, indeed, some (more) red tape to navigate around. It had to do with the system we use to test the people's skills. Apparently it was cheaper to use this one we use now (which can only "prove" up to level 5) and keep testing people every so many years, than paying royalties/developing another more robust system (which could ascertain up to level 6).

A beancounters approach. But a working approach, nonetheless.

[maybepilot]

Well I'm spanish and I've got level 5

Andrijander,

you are not the problem my friend, it's the 90% of your Spanish colleagues.
Just sit behind them on any day and listen to the frequency....

If you want the system to change you'll have to do it by convincing people in it to make a difference. Just pi$$ing people off and hoping to win the lottery (SESAR...or should we call it maybefutureATC?) well, it just won't take you anywhere but down frustration road.

So if I understand this correctly ATCO can work by the rule pi$$ing hundreds of pilots and thousands of passengers off while pilots should just bend over and quietly take all this ****e one day after the other?I don't think so...
Who's hoping to win the lottery by working to rule by the way?

We had once a flight plan, from a major asian carrier, stating in field 18: english speaking pilot on board. No comment.

Some outfits are modest enough not to pretend they have adequate language skills, on the other hand there are state organizations that falsely certify the language levels of their employees....

[andrijander]

I would love to be able to sit with them, but I do not work in Spain. In any case if can be of any assistance to them and the service they (we) provide I'm right here.

I don't think you got me. I didn't say you can't complain when something is not right. By all means, please do. If we get no feedback we won't know what's up (we all hear and see easier what we want to hear and see; everything else we may need to be told twice, it's human nature). But then again there are ways of doing that. I'm not asking you to go around kissing arse, which you wouldn't anyway, because that would be denigrating for you and probably wouldn't achieve results either. I think it is a matter of action-reaction. Someone in the Spanish thread went on calling idiots all the trainees at Malaga. Immediate reaction: the few spanish controllers on the thread got upset. Thread derails and we go down the name calling avenue."Forget the point of the thread! You called me idiot!" and whatever you had to say, as valid as it may have been, is sidetracked. We are nowhere (maybe even a bit more apart than where we started).

About the falsifying part in your last post. If you know something I don't, please share. And if you think something needs to be reported, please do. I know that ATCO's, at least in Spain, are playing against the organization in order to keep safety levels up (it's turning into a money making exercise down there for the ANSP, forget safety) and they're actually the ones going to the judges with these very same sort of things. Apparently the Spanish "CAA/FAA" (CIAIAC and AESA) are doing a very poor job. Again I'm not there but it's a serious case and goes really deep. Maybe you are all complaining about the same thing and the message is just not getting across.

A.

[sabenaboy]

Well I'm spanish and I've got level 5 (can't get 6, since english is not my mother tongue).

English doesn't have to be your mother tongue to get a level 6.
You must be considered an "expert speaker" though.

English is my third language but I did get a level 6.

Best regards,
Sabenaboy

[crjo]

An experiment was made 10 or 15 years ago in Paris to make french pilots speak english. For some reason,the resulting decision was to come back to french.Don't know why.

Hello brATCO...

I was an AF F/O on the A320 when this occured...

You seem to imply that we went back to french because pilots were not good enough in english.

Allow me to correct you: We reverted back to french because of the uproar the CDG ATC made at this new "procedure"...
I agree the AF official in charge of the project should have thought of letting the CDG ATC know that - quite suddenly - starting next monday, ALL AF flights would talk to them in english ! That was poor planning on his part...

I remember reading the mention "ATC in french when possible" on the D-ATIS !

But anyway, your reference to the...wait for it... HIMYM show indicates you are one of the "good" ones ! :ok:

Cheers

[AF jockey]

Now this is getting ridiculous ! When are we going to switch to English for good here in France ? I feel embarrassed and sorry for my foreign colleagues everytime ATC keeps switching languages back and forth.

[atcool]

Feel free to start with your first message in English, even you fly a french compagny. I'm sure that most of my colleagues will answer you in English. I used to do that.

[speedbird462]

@Andrijander Well I'm spanish and I've got level 5 (can't get 6, since english is not my mother tongue).
Just wondering where you got that information from? As far as I know, you can get 6 even if English is not your mother tongue :rolleyes: I am also Spanish and I have level 6.

[andrijander]

I thought it was clarified in a previous post, but it seems it wasn't (truth be told it is dubious). You do not need to be native to get level 6 (as I thought originally) but the problem I have were I am is the system we use (it is not designed to prove up to level 6 but 5 only). I understand it has to do with how the test is designed and performed i.e. length, techniques/technologies used, etc.

I guess the confusion came as I was told back then, when I did the test, that it was a pity they couldn't give me a 6 (I guess if we could grant it here I may have got it, but that's blowing my own whistle and definitely not a fact).

So, apologies for the misunderstanding, but you can be 6 if your testing system is allowed to grant a level 6. Wether you're a native or not.

A.

[BrATCO]

You seem to imply that we went back to french because pilots were not good enough in english.

Allow me to correct you: We reverted back to french because of the uproar the CDG ATC made at this new "procedure"...


Hello, crjo,

I didn't imply anything. I really don't know why they came back to French. CDG ATCos seem to say it's because of AFR pilots, pilots say it's ATCo's fault...

I've never worked in CDG and I don't exactly remember the reports.
There could be really good reasons.

Working in an ACC, I wouldn't mind speaking English with every pilot, let's say over FL 290 or so.
I'm more or less able to argue on the freq in English, despite my "poor" official level 4 (I could be level 10, my official score would still be 4 in France, in order to validate it every other 3 years, as ICOA recommands), but as long as I can choose, I'll argue in French.
So, the one who turns is the French speaking pilot.(joke !)
If French pilots had to speak English, I'd rather put my trust in English pilots, so the English speaking pilot would be the one who turns.(joke again!)

I don't kwow what's the best. And I don't think a pilot can understand AND anticipate a global situation on a sector, whatever the language.

e.g.: Last week, I had to deal with an emergency descent. I had to take all the traffics in my sector on radar vectors, the one who turned most was a French speaking pilot (not a choice, matter of facts). Nobody knew why they were vectored until I asked the descending pilot which kind of assistance he needed on arrival. 40000 feet in less than 80 miles was a steep descent. No time to explain. I had this traffic less than 1 min on my freq.
Afterwards, I felt lucky that all the pilots had trusted me, whatever the language.

[JW411]

BrATCO:

Congratulations; you did a great job and that is what we all hope would happen when the merde hits the fan.

The other side of the coin was a friend of mine who had severe smoke in the cockpit at altitude northbound over the slightly high (Alpine) ground. He sent a Mayday requesting an emergency descent and was told to standby!

Whether there was a language difficulty or ATC were unused to talking to a pilot using an oxygen mask I know not.

My friend diverted himself towards LSGG and the first useful conversation he had with ATC was when he changed frequency to the Swiss.

Smoke in the cockpit is almost the ultimate killer. If it cannot be controlled then you have about 11 minutes to get yourself and the aircraft on the ground.

[BrATCO]

JW471,

I've had to talk with pilots with oygen masks. Even in French, in normal situations (fighter's pilots) that's way harder to understand.

Regarding your friend's situation, he was on frequency with Marseille, not far (less than 11 min from the field ?)from Geneva airspace. I've never worked in Marseille ACC, but I did in Reims ACC and I know that Geneva airspace is cut in slices : one level, one sector.

Maybe (only a "might be") the fastest solution for your friend was to be sent on frequency with Geneva : they have electronic devices to deal with this kind of descent through their sectors, which we don't have. The French controler would have had a huge amount of co-ordinations to make, as the Swiss one has just to push a button to know what's below.

Maybe the time between "stand by" and "contact" was used to make the right co-ordination to be sure there was no conflicting traffic during the descent. Your friend didn't hear that (that wasn't his problem then). I understand time can seem very long in this kind of situations.

Note that the Swiss controler was aware of the situation before the first contact, the French controler wasn't until it had already begun...

But I wasn't there, I could be completely mistaking and you could be absolutely right (which I don't hope).

[JW411]

BrATCO:

I am grateful for your reply. I have absolutely no doubt that you would have given my friend a lot more help than he actually got. The nearest airfield was probably Lyons but he was getting no worthwhile help from French ATC so he headed for Geneva.

If it makes you feel better, a friend of mine had an engine fire (genuine) in the eastern Mediterranean one night and put out an instant Mayday.

The response from Athenai was "Station transmitting, Stand By, Speedbird 403 carry on with your report".

[Avman]

JW411, you had me slightly puzzled until I figured out you meant LSGG.

ESGG is Goteborg. ;)

[JW411]

I do apologise; I am pleased to say that I have spent a lot more happy times in Landvetter than I ever did in Geneva.

[nilcostoptionmyass]

Could all you ATC units out there discriminate against french and Spanish A/C, i.e put them in holds :ok:, vector them off track to allow UK A/C to land ahead :ok:etc etc ?

We see this every day in Spain, and now in France. :ugh:

[AF jockey]

I find this last comment amusing as the same feeling of victimization is also in the air amongst French pilots feeling BA A/C always come first at LHR, LH A/C always come first in FRA and IB always come first in MAD. Which is cràp obviously. French pilots go beserck on being badly treated (supposedly) in Paris and that gets me in stitches everytime as they actually believe in it.
Now I notice this is classic consideration throughout the european pilot community.

[criss]

All pilots always think someone else gets prority.

[eastern wiseguy]

The supposed discrimination in favour of different nationalities makes me smile. Each aircrew wants to be first. EVERY controller wants as many aircraft OFF the frequency as soon as possible. To engineer a system which offers a few track miles less to aircraft (a) whilst meaning more vectoring for aircraft (b)(and associated increase in workload for the ATCO) is not something we do in the UK. In my own particular part of the world I have had complaints from aircraft in the SAME company about their colleague being number one........:ugh:

[nilcostoptionmyass]

Nice one guys, all pilots moan moan whinge whinge on and on and on some more.

Make no mistake, the Spanish will vector way off track if they can land some countrymen first.

Own little bubbles ?


errrrhhhhhhhh
:ugh::ugh:

[bigjarv]

You know when the French chat to each other in French on the RT?! Well I find it so hard to work out if they are waiting for a response or not cause I can't speak French so I find it best just to transmit. If I have interrupted, well its not my fault! You should try it sometime! :E

[TolTol]

You know when the French chat to each other in French on the RT?! Well I find it so hard to work out if they are waiting for a response or not cause I can't speak French so I find it best just to transmit. If I have interrupted, well its not my fault! You should try it sometime!

I always do that, love it when they sound mad after I interrupt them:p

[ACCP]

Anyway, those overworked and underpaid French ATCOs are going back on strike on Wednesday. About time too, must have been at least 4 weeks since last time.

What I can't understand is their timing: usually they do it on the 1st weekend of July to properly impact on those people going on holiday or, even better, the last weekend of July/1st weekend of August. Then you can really ground the whole of Europe. They are losing their touch I tell you. What's the point of being a small group of self-serving, self-interested, privileged, civil servants if you can't :mad: off an entire continent? Beats me... :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Tight Seat]

It must be a good weather forecast for Wednesday then.

[AF jockey]

Yes, this situation is unbareable to us. You're right to complain but consider that we, at AF and all French airlines have to put up with french ATC work to rule strike and recurrent strikes on most short haul flights and 50% of our long haul flights. There is a deepening canyon between a fringe of the French ATCOs and French pilots and that situation is reaching its peak at this very moment as several company pilot reports have been dug out unwillingly and published in several major national newspapers.

To many, ATCOs are putting their own T&Cs in jeopardy in the longer run, they're digging their own grave. They're infuriating the entire country by striking again and again and the word is spread that some officials have decided to tackle the "ATCOs issue" once and for all.

[FRying]

This can only lead to their own disarray.

[ACCP]

some officials have decided to tackle the "ATCOs issue" once and for all

Let's wish them every success; it will never be too soon. And after the ATCOs they can take on the SNCF.

[Tight Seat]

You French ATCOs must be pi$$ed at how much attention the Spanish are getting at the moment....

[Alpinepilot]

well perhaps if the French are seen to sort out their PROBLEM controllers, the Spanish may be brave enough to get on with it as well. By the way, during your PA's you DO name and shame the controllers or sector, dont you! You never know which politician royalty or press man may be listening!o

[J.O.]

3 hr slot delays ex PMI tonight. The reason - industrial action in French ATC. Thanks once again (not).

[Jump Complete]

Instead of NOTAMing when they are on strike, wouldn't it be easier to NOTAM when they are not on strike?

[Fly380]

The Spanish have called in the Militiary I believe. I have one son stranded at Gatwick for the night hoping to get Ryanair to Alicante in the morning after tonight's flight was cancelled.:{

[greuzi]

Who needs ash when we have the French ATC?
With an industry battling it's way out of last year this is a great response during the holiday season.

Am not even affected directly. I don't fly AF, even business class because it's the worst service in the world. Am annoyed because I know how peoples day has been affected across all walks of life, personal financial situations and simply the need to be somewhere important to them, all :mad: by a bunch of :mad:.

Message to the :mad:....:=

"If you want to annoy the French government, stop paying your taxes and don't annoy everyone else in your pathetic little power struggle. A struggle that will weaken your employer's ability to pay your salary, stop people visiting loved ones, make aircraft burn more fuel and pollute the atmosphere unnecessarily. Stifle business, investment and screw the country in all repects. For what?"

On days like this, what multinational will focus on France to build a new manufacturing plant, production line or new enterprise? They can't even get there to talk about it, let alone do it. :ugh:

Tough times...coming to a place near you...soon

[greuzi]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTE1sZ4aVVU4ckGPzvo7CTcI7pbta_HLMY5nXBJxdz 1mffIJVs&t=1&h=144&w=257&usg=__4JVE7a0JWNq5iq3S_boF91cRbsg=......http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Nicolas_Sarkozy_%282008%29.jpg/165px-Nicolas_Sarkozy_%282008%29.jpg (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/File:Nicolas_Sarkozy_(2008).jpg).......

[Thunderbug]

Great one from French ATC last night. I shouldn't be too upset with them as they were the ones actually at work, but..........

We are into commanders discretion, it is the wrong side of midnight, we had been sat on the ground with pax onboard for 4 hours with slots going forward & back. Finally get told to call Brest...... we must have been the only aircraft in her sector and we got the classic French ATC reply.........

Station Calling? :ugh:

[a.mandon]

Greusi: On days like this, what multinational will focus on France to build a new manufacturing plant, production line or new enterprise? They can't even get there to talk about it, let alone do it.

For sure, UK is paradise compared to Froggyland !

By the way, about "new manufacturing plant", except for your London City, give me the list and number of your manufacturing plants as compared to France's

This being said, so many of us here feel so pissed about those french controllers on strike, specially in Orly (not all, otherwise how come 60% of the flight would have been operating ?)

Those are stubborn idiots, I agree, but still a minority giving pain in the ar..s to the rest of the population.

France have those irresponsible... but Greece, Italy, UK, Spain, Portugal have other problems.
Where is the best place to go live ? Is it UK ?

[CommandB]

All countries have their problems mate but we are talking here specifically about the ATC.
UK atc, imho, is the best in europe. Everyone makes mistakes now and then but those guys always seem to be on top of things - have you heard london control at peak times...? In brest theyre confused when controlling 3 a/c. as one poster said "station calling" seems to be a well used phrase, amoungst many other gaffes. If I had an emergency id want london helping me out. simples.

What really gets me is - why do the french/spanish "work to rule" and pi$$ off the entire aviation community?? Surely the sensible thing to do would be to give us directs and help us out (as most/all other atc stations do) as then they would have the backing of the aviation community? Also their gripe is aimed at the governments so why are we bearing the brunt of it all? Its ok for them - as soon as their shift finishes they go home. Forget us all who have been stuck with a 3 hr slot outbound and 2 hr slot inbound, kids / wife / girlfriend / family back home, pax/crew complaining, running out of food and water, unhelpful ground staff, CB dodging enroute, out of hours for tomorrow so loss of earnings...etc etc. Everyones been there and knows the drill.
Not a good way to win support of the masses...

[ACCP]

They don't give a toss about winning support from anyone. They're civil servants. They have a job for life. They don't have to stay in profit or be efficient. They'll get paid at the end of the month, every month of their career, until they retire, and then they'll get their protected pension, indexed to RPI, forever, no worries.

You and I pay for that, and we will carry on paying for it, even though we wonder whether we will still be employed this time next year, even though we worry about our decreasing and threatened pensions.

[a.mandon]

Everyones been there and knows the drill.
Not a good way to win support of the masses...


I know... and...fair enough.

What can we the "working population" do ?
Take arms and shoot at them ?

Public servant have been prtotected in France since the beginning of 1900. It got worst and worst since 1981.
The actual president is doing his best but he his not Reagan or Margreth.

So long...

[atcool]

In brest theyre confused when controlling 3 a/c. as one poster said "station calling" seems to be a well used phrase, amoungst many other gaffes. If I had an emergency id want london helping me out. simples.I just come back at home from my duty in Brest ACC. I don't remember to have been confused at any time today, except when this RYR with opened mic disturbed everybody in my sector. Anyway I take good note that next time I'll have an emergency in my sector, I'll transfert him immidiately to 132.950, even the aircraft is overhead NTS.:}
Seriously could you imagine that from time to time we train some new ATCOs, and we must refrain ourselves (instructors) from taking the mic for minors errors, in order they improve their skills ?
I prefer a trainee asking "station calling" if he doesn't pick the right callsign than one who issue a clearance to the wrong aircraft.
B(r)est regards from B(r)est ACC.;)

[The Real Slim Shady]

atcool

Brest were great today directs without asking: thanks fella :-)

[ACCP]

Take arms and shoot at them ?

Now, here's an idea!! :D:D:D

[ACCP]

Seriously could you imagine that from time to time we train some new ATCOs

Why don't you send them to the UK for training? They'll get a lot more practice and they'll be able to improve their english in so doing; most of them need it very badly.

[Zippy Monster]

I had excellent service from France in all sectors I passed through today - Marseille, Bordeaux, Paris and Reims. Directs, and also being allowed to maintain higher levels for ages when normally we are required to descend ridiculously early on one particular route. It was almost as if they were trying to make up for yesterday...!

[atcool]

Why don't you send them to the UK for training?
Lol :D. I love this one. Would you be a little consistent with yourself ? Do you want really to downgrade UK service quality ? ;)
On one hand, we didn't wait for your brilliant idea to do that. Ab-initio ATCO are sent to UK school during initial training in order to improve English, and we (rated controllers) must participate periodically to local English curses and abroad immersions in UK in order to re-validate our license. That's for English skills.
On the other hand, concerning on job training : Acquiring pure controlling skills (from ab-initio to full rated ATCO) can only been done at the first location where you work, after initial school, because of geography, procedures, and all the stuff that you should know.

[Ballstroker]

A.mandon
By the way, about "new manufacturing plant", except for your London City, give me the list and number of your manufacturing plants as compared to France's

At the risk of dragging this further off topic, I have to correct a myth that you are fed by your politicians there in France about UK manufacturing:

Value of manufacturing in GDP terms, USD market rates

UK: $323 billion
France: $306 billion

2008 figures (latest in dataset), source: UN United Nations Statistics Division - National Accounts (http://unstats.un.org/unsd/snaama/dnllist.asp)

Maybe this answers your question about manufacturing plants with hard facts?

[Squawk7777]

... and my country's better than yours! Bwaaaaaa .....

Pathetic.

Am not even affected directly. I don't fly AF, even business class because it's the worst service in the world.

Congrats' for making the dumbest comment of the day! You probably have never been on AF. I thought this board is for professional pilots. :ugh:

On days like this, what multinational will focus on France to build a new manufacturing plant, production line or new enterprise? They can't even get there to talk about it, let alone do it.

I am having fun at dissecting your idiocy. Take a look at what sectors strike in France (private vs. public) before posting your ignorance. F the haters! Take a glance at the US FAA controllers who have no right to strike. Ask them how they feel, how their morale affects their work.


Great one from French ATC last night. I shouldn't be too upset with them as they were the ones actually at work, but..........

We are into commanders discretion, it is the wrong side of midnight, we had been sat on the ground with pax onboard for 4 hours with slots going forward & back. Finally get told to call Brest...... we must have been the only aircraft in her sector and we got the classic French ATC reply.........

Station Calling?

So you know the entire picture/SA? You know that the person wasn't busy on the phone or with other related work that you cannot see? Why don't you stopping nagging like mad housewives and get a broad picture for yourself?

You have the right to complain by doing something about the problem.

Where is the best place to go live ? Is it UK ?

Take a look which country has the highest number of emigrants.

[ACCP]

Ab-initio ATCO are sent to UK school during initial training in order to improve English

I knew this already but it's difficult to tell when you talk to them.

As a matter of interest have you, as an ATCO, sat on a flight deck from the south of France to the north of Europe (or the other way around) and don't feel a touch of embarrassment when you hear your french colleagues control aircraft in english and compare their command of this language to that of your Swiss, German, Belgian, Dutch and Scandinavian counterparts. I would gladly invite you to sit on my jumpseat so you can hear it for yourself, mon cher ami aiguilleur du ciel.

That's what this thread is all about. Get your act in order, be as efficient and fluent as your northern european colleagues, and people will stop having digs at you.

[Squawk7777]

ACCP, complete rubbish! (and I have flown in Europe, the US and Latin America!)

[ACCP]

I am comparing with northern europe. I don't include the Latinos in there on purpose.

[greuzi]

- I was not comparing France to any other country
- I do not live in the UK, but did when I registered
- I think you will find Mexico has more emmigration than the UK or France but why did you even mention it?
- PP is frequented by lots more people beyond PPs. Have you ever noticed ATCOs, Engineers, Cabin Crew, Wannabees, Retirees, Consultants, Lawyers, Doctors here amongst many others?

Do you fly?
Your reactions suggest you are easily drawn to assumptions. Worse still you react strongly to them and then veer away from the topic at hand. Do that in the air and you won't just annoy those around you....you will endanger them.

G

[Squawk7777]

Hey Greuli,

ich würde mal sehr vorsichtig mit solchen Kommentaren sein. Ich empfehle mal meine vorherigen Beiträge zu dem Thema durchzulesen! :ugh: und auch die von Ihnen gemachten Kommentare bevor Sie so einen Unsinn und Unterstellungen von sich geben!

Sorry ppruners ;)

and to the person directed if (s)he doesn't understand.

[greuzi]

Squawk,
Stop wasting everybodies time with another pointless diatribe. For the non-german readers, your post asks me to check your previous posts as if it gives some kind of credibility to dispute my opinion of you? It doesn't.

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/394730-funny.html#post5296495

I won't post on this thread again and ask the Moderators to wrap it up. It has more than passed its useful life.

G

[Squawk7777]

Your reading comprehension is way off. I referred to my previous posts regarding this subject and not some non-sense that I posted on JetBlast ("meine vorherigen Beiträge zu dem Thema durchzulesen"/ = my previous contribution to this thread). Deliberate mixing of apples with oranges is just a tad below the belt. Like this post (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/419131-french-atc-10.html#post5822285) or this (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/419131-french-atc-10.html#post5822323) of yours where you clearly demonstrate more than just a little bit of animosity that has clearly nothing to do with a professional aviation discussion. Additionally, you dare to point the finger at someone else and accuse them about a pointless diatribe? So much to form an opinion about you, your credibility and your coexistent hypocrisy. :rolleyes: :p

[Ptimat31]

I think that we get it. Us the frenchs are all lazy civil servants on strike but also incompetent on the rare days we are working. We are also vicious, mostly with english guys, refusing them directs routes and better FL they deserve. (because they are ultimately competents). I'm just wondering why the brits are coming to settle in France then. Because in the south, it is all crowded. After all, the positive side of it is that we'll be all fluent soon as most of them are unable to speak french even to order a baguette after 5 years.

[stator vane]

this is so much better than reading history books!!!