Jetstar Cadetship (again)........ [Archive]

eternity

23rd Jun 2010, 10:32

The previous threads have been closed down because people are clearly unable to hold themselves back from turning it into a slinging/whinging/whining/"back in my day we never would have done that" thread.

However, regardless of the opinions of many of you, there are alot of people who have applied for this cadetship and are looking for some information on it.

If your really that upset about this cadetship and what it may be doing to australian aviation then please take out your frustrations somewhere else......go kick your dog..........get drunk with likeminded whingers........whatever floats your boat...........just do us all a favour and dont do it on this thread.

Moving on.......has anybody completed the 'panel interview'????? Is it with somepeople from Jetstar, or is it with some random Grade One from OAA??

Any news from people who have done the interview for the ACP???

Aerozepplin

23rd Jun 2010, 10:55

I dunno... if I went to a victim's support forum and started a thread about "how to get out of jail early for good behaviour" and then prattled about paying off warden's and quoting the bible to parol officers I'd expect a rather harsh reaction.

I know there are people applying who have buckets of hours in GA... but there are also kids with a big cheque book. If I was slogging my guts (and back) out in an airvan around WA waiting for that big-league break, I'd be pretty angry about the cadetship. Ts & Cs are a bit of a sore point for many people, and if you're seen to be undermining them you should think twice about where you ask the questions.

Not judging, just stating that I think the reactions are unavoidable and this thread will be closed too.

aussiefan

23rd Jun 2010, 11:03

I would like to offer a new cadetship, much better than the Jetstar one.
If you pass my interview I guarantee a job flying any aircraft you wish. Interview price is $500 you can have as many goes as you like. I take cash. Only....
But there is a job at the end of it, somewhere? Just come for the interview....

Actually, because you really really love flying and have always wanted to be a pilot you get the interview for $450!

Jethro Gibbs

23rd Jun 2010, 12:00

Do not pay for a job its just WRONG :ugh:why can,t people get this:eek:

Aerozepplin

23rd Jun 2010, 20:18

You have your freedom due to this man...................

I didn't know that HE was involved. Am I thinking of the right person? Might have to amend my opinions...

atminimums

24th Jun 2010, 04:55

A mate of mine just sat the initial testing for the J* cadetship and it sounded like a horribly organised last minute deal (which doesn't really surprise me).

Anyway, he withdrew his app. not long after leaving the testing centre. Maybe a heads up to anyone thinking of giving it a crack, but hey, I aint telling people what they should and shouldn't do...

mins :cool:

27/09

24th Jun 2010, 04:57

Some free advice to anyone considering the Jetstar cadetship.

Before you commit to this modern day slavery have a good look around and ask questions of pilots already in the industry about this jetstar programme. Don't just accept what OAA and Jetstar tell you.

Take a read of this to see what CTC and OAA have done in conjunction with European LCC's like Jetstar. http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/399371-more-easyjet-pilot-slavery-deals-oxford-aviation-academy.html

Don't say "it won't happen here" it has already started with this jetstar cadetship.

You might save yourself a lot of heartache.

jackson's_joyflights

24th Jun 2010, 05:00

Hey guys, heard from J* today and I have my interview early July. Can anyone who's been through the process PM me of just reply so I have some idea what i'm up against. Cheers JJ

Willie Nelson

24th Jun 2010, 06:01

Wally Mk2

24th Jun 2010, 06:07

I guess seeing such things happen in Aviation such as Multi PIlots Lic & Cadet-ships etc is like waving a red flag to us oldies who did it the hard way but as I have said before Aviation is a very different beast these days & it's been proven that you can take someone off the street screen them & teach them how to fly a 'Bus'. Whether it's the right thing to do or not is something that we cannot control, as someone famous once said..............'the way of the future'!
Good luck to all those newbies who choose the path that takes them to the top as they know no different:ok:

Wmk2

White and Fluffy

25th Jun 2010, 00:36

I have heard some interesting rumours going around that OAA and CTC are trying to change the setup to remove any initial contracts with Jetstar, so they can take as many candidates as pass the initial testing and that they have the capacity to train. Jetstar will then select the FO’s they want from the eventual pool (hold file) of those that passed, based on merit, etc, and offer them positions at that stage. This would be interesting as you would have to front up with the cash and not be guaranteed a position at the end. I guess it does ensure that Jetstar get only the best candidates at the very end of the process.

Jethro Gibbs

25th Jun 2010, 01:35

You do not PAY FOR A JOB its just WRONG:ugh:

campdoag

25th Jun 2010, 01:52

And it undermines the existing workforce!!

Good luck finding a friend on the flight deck or some one to have a beer with on a slip...................:ugh:

but hey, it's not all about that...........we fly airplanes just cos we love it:yuk:

tarmac12

25th Jun 2010, 02:08

If jetstar were going to just trawl through files of all the kids who graduated from OAA when they need a few cadets, why limit themselves to one school? Wouldn't they just throw the doors open to anyone with a fresh CPL? There are enough guys and girls that would pass J*'s apptitude tests floating around right now to supply the scheme for a couple of years. The only reason its with OAA is so they can advertise that you can pay for it all with fee help through swinburne Uni. The sums don't ad up if you have to shell out for a CPL yourself.

I'm desperate to crack a entry level flying job but the ACP is just too much of a financial minefield. Less pay and a big bill for my trouble.

Jethro Gibbs

25th Jun 2010, 02:16

I just do not get the thinking of people will pay $ to multi mill $ companys for a job :ugh:

tarmac12

25th Jun 2010, 02:29

Has anyone been contacted for the Advanced cadet programme?
It seems a few have applied for the ab initio scheme but no one seems to want to admit to applying for the ACP. Not wishing to share it with your fellow aviators? Feeling guilty?

Look, what I really would like to know is how many people with the minimum have applied and been contacted. If J* only got 50 applicants with the required ticks in the box I would say that the ACP will be history. If 200 suitable people applied for it then it is here to stay.

bowing

25th Jun 2010, 03:13

I have heard the exact same information from a senior J* staff.

Good luck to all applying be sure and live with what you get out of it in the end...for some will be great...the others we will read all about it here on pprune.

safe flying everybody

Aerozepplin

25th Jun 2010, 03:13

Interesting news from the inside is that they are using the reverse recruitment method theory. This theory states that standard aptitude testing has serious inherent flaws. As the applicant is obviously aware they are being tested they are able to distort their results in a manner they feel is conducive to the companies requirements. For example, by knowing that airlines look for team players who are also willing to query or challenge the actions of their team when required, I can at the very least “drift” my answers to meet these expectations.

While the creators of these test are aware that this is human nature, and so design safe guards into them, there are acknowledged limits. In the example of this scheme, the plan is most likely dangle the “carrot” of a job in a shiny jet to potential applicants but then provide a series of obstacles. These begin with the published low pay, the poor conditions, and shaky job security. Beyond this I can only assume that there will be interviews where inappropriate questions are asked, strange conditions attached, and dubious requirements floated. If at this stage the applicant withdraws (as some have done it seems) they are offered a position with the company. The shocked applicant is then briefed on how Company X requires crew with a high level of situational analysis, hazard identification, and a general level of self preservation, and that by rejecting the offer they have clearly demonstrated these qualities. Applicants who wish to continue are given a standard “thanks but no thanks” letter.

blacklabel

25th Jun 2010, 03:49

i don't believe in these cadetships, it makes kids dream and gives work to flying schools but will never make a good pilot out of anyone.

" ladies and gentlemen, this is you FO speaking, i'm 21 years old and i have 250h, the captain is in the toilet spewing his guts, we are arriving in Heathrow in an hour. There will be severe turbulence, snow storms and it is still night time "

clinty83

25th Jun 2010, 04:04

Can anyone provide a link to Jet* EBA covering these cadetships. Curious on payrates and conditions etc etc.

Thanks

moss197

25th Jun 2010, 05:30

Just to make some things clear:

This Jetstar cadetship does not provide the command hours required to obtain and full ATPL.

Until a junior F/O or cadet achieves the hours to hold a full ATPL they cannot receive a promotion to the position of First Officer ($37,000 base pay difference) let alone hold a command.

Jetstar is under no obligation to provide the command time to a junior F/O, nor can it be logged without the approval of the company for a training captain to supervise it.

Because there is a $37,000 pay rise involved there will be a disincentive for Jetstar to provide command time required for promotion until the supply of experienced candidates dries up.

Seniority is only a major consideration in regards to promotion to either F/O or command within Jetstar.

If you still wish to pursue this opportunity then good luck to you and I hope it goes well for you. .

But is the 6 years bonded to jetstar counted as part of "The Cadetship"? Why is there such a knock on this program? I really don't understand, it's in JQ's interests after paying for your training accomodation etc. to give you work. Unless it's in a signed contract they cannot force you to pay them back, I guess reading the fine print is important in these delicate situations.:8

fatalbert1

25th Jun 2010, 07:21

How many applicants have they been assessing on each assessment day?

Bo777

25th Jun 2010, 07:54

Why is there such a knock on this program? I really don't understand, it's in JQ's interests after paying for your training accomodation etc. to give you work. Unless it's in a signed contract they cannot force you to pay them back,
Moss
There's been plenty of posts on this very issue. If you can't decipher or come to some sort of intelligent conclusion on what the processes would be based on some facts they present (read their website/ pprune posts) and then make moronic statements like the above then truly this cadetship is for you.:ugh:

Ps. Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

Cirronimbus

25th Jun 2010, 09:26

fatalbert1

25th Jun 2010, 09:49

Where exactly does it say you are contracted for 6 years as opposed to being a normally employed FO?

moss197

25th Jun 2010, 10:01

"But is the 6 years bonded to jetstar counted as part of "The Cadetship"? Why is there such a knock on this program? I really don't understand, it's in JQ's interests after paying for your training accomodation etc. to give you work. Unless it's in a signed contract they cannot force you to pay them back, I guess reading the fine print is important in these delicate situations"

Because, after you have finished paying for your on-the-job training (and buying your job) it is cheaper for them to "employ" another wannabe who is willing to pay for the same deal as you did. They don't renew your contract but engage a new wannabe cadet (just like you were). "Cadets" (who pay) are cheaper than employees who get paid.

Simple mathematics

But you are checked to line, you arent paying anything up front, surely an a320 endo and a job getting hours on the actual aircraft for six years is plenty to get you going! Even if they don't renew that contract after 6 years then youve still got a ****load of hours on a jet so you can do what you like with it.:ugh: If you don't like jet flying, im sure any other lower level job that's out there would take you on with that kind of experience. I'm not doing the cadetship so i'm not biased towards it but either way my point remains valid. And if you love it then after six years even 50% co pilot time i'm sure would be enough to get you doing something with another airline.

Private Patjarr

25th Jun 2010, 13:17

Probably worth thinking about;
- I don't believe it says there is any guarantee Jetstar have to offer you a job at all,
- I don't even know if Jetstar management would know where the future growth of the airline will be,
- Its well likely the employment a cadet would be offered would be to fill vacancies on the offshore expansions (on that countries local conditions). ie where the Aussue EBA pilots won't leave or take leave to go to,
- I haven't heard if a cadet would appear on a seniority list (and from what I've heard from a friend in Jetstar, with the total lack of movement forecast in the Aus RBA ranks you would likely be overseas for a long time!

Given all the above, everyone has a choice to make for themselves. I guess it's nobodys place to tell someone else what to do. I do think that many considering the cadetship would be best to get some insight into the obvious direction Jetstar is heading with offshoring of employment and how that will affect their possible future.

Having said that also. If someone thinks that the shoe fits them then the best of luck. I hope it is everything you are looking for.

Billy747

25th Jun 2010, 13:19

Hi guys,

Any one completed the ACP testing at OAA. Im finding it hard to prep for....
Any help or suggestions would be great :ok:
pls pm me

Good luck

ALLICEDUP

25th Jun 2010, 14:18

Moss197,

What other airlines?? Overseas?? The point people are trying to make is that it will end up eroding the conditions of ALL pilots in Australian airlines. Great to have the experience but to have also ruined the current conditions for everyone else.....

This has happened continuously since the early 2000's, how low will the conditions go? I enjoy my job but I am worried that I won't have one in the future because people are accepting worse conditions from the pimps!!

Time will tell.... Please don't bitch on here in 5-10 years time when you are over the "I just love flying bit" and the conditions for ALL of us are utter crap.

Rant over, enjoy paying for someone to use you!!! :ugh:

sumtingwong

26th Jun 2010, 00:24

Any one completed the ACP testing at OAA. Im finding it hard to prep for....
Any help or suggestions would be great

Billy, can I suggest some core stability strengthening and stretching. Your going to need to be extra flexible with all the bending over you'll be doing. 6 years is a lot of pineapples.
:ok:

Seabreeze

26th Jun 2010, 02:19

Tarmac12,

You seem to be under the impression that Fee-Help pays your fees. It is only a loan. To access an ~$86K Fee-help loan you will also need to pay for an academic postgrad uni course at ~$15k as well.

If the scheme works via VET-Fee Help, then no academic course fees are payable, but there is an upfront $20K loan fee.

One way or another, access to Fee-Help will cost you an extra $15-$20K.

Paying up front is much cheaper overall if you have access to the cash.

clinty83

26th Jun 2010, 05:40

Hi Crew

I'm here to divulge some insight into Jetstars stage 2 testing and interview. I thought Id help out those interested with some valuable info because I have recently sat the exams.

It consists of a computer based 3hr examination that covers

1. Yech questions, most of these are found in ATPL aerodynamics and systems about jet operations.

2. A maths test that covers long division, algerbra (4x+6=9y find X) kinda stuff aswell as pythag therom etc.

3. personality testing. You know the type

4. Motor skills testing with our old favourite the joystick and pedels. Basically the idea with this one is keep the aircraft on the glide slope and the ball in the middle which appears below the simulated ILS.

the other motor skills test involves entering given alts, heading and radio frequencies while killing a red light that systematically appers in the top left and right corners.

I wasn't successful and so find myself sitting in a bar am MLB airport drowning sorrows. My apologies for any spelling and/or punctuation errors.

On the positive side I met a great bunch of blokes (9) and the sun will still come up in the morning. I'm off to chase my other love, float planes!!

any Q's feel free to PM me.

clinty83,

Tee Emm

26th Jun 2010, 08:59

surely an a320 endo and a job getting hours on the actual aircraft for six years is plenty to get you going!

Presumably a cadet would have only to pay for a copilot endorsement as that is the job he has applied for. The copilot endorsement would be heaps cheaper than a command endorsement as the requirements are different.

Col. Flagg

26th Jun 2010, 12:51

Hi All,

The above description of the OAA screen for Jetstar is accurate, I just wanted to clarify for all those that have not done a huge amount of math since high school. The ask 2x+6=9y, what is the value of y if x=3. they don't give 2 variables and make you come up with an answer. That would require a bit more maths knowledge.

Flagg

multi_engined

27th Jun 2010, 01:51

I'm not here to have a go at people going to the cadetship, if they want to avoid the GA scheme of experience then that is their choice.

My flatmate recently spent over $2,000 in air fares, buying a suit, hiring a car, accommodation... only to be told by jetstar that he hadn't passed the aptitude tests after paying the additional $300.

I am sorry but i must express my dissapointment in what seems to be a monkey race. They offer no assistance to those travelling from other parts of australia, and as someone mentioned before having to pay to sit an interview and psychometric testing to WORK FOR THEM is just an outright joke.

IMO if the company was serious about doing things professionally then surely they could organise travel for those where spare seating was available, offer some kind of accommodation assistance rather than just expecting people for have the savings to pay for this kind of an event.

Artificial Horizon

27th Jun 2010, 02:17

Multi Engined,

This is the whole point here, it was purely your mates choice to spend $2,000 to go to the cadetship interview. If you would believe others on this forum then everyone who turns up with the money and willing to sign gets the job. Judging by the amount of people on here who are not getting through the selection, this if obviously not the point. Don't forget, no one is forcing people to go to these interviews, rest assured if Jetstar got ZERO applicants due to the cost associated with the selection then the policy would change. From the numbers that are apparently applying this is obviously not the case. If you resent paying for the selection just don't do it. Once again this is not new, to get into a 'certain' legacy carrier I had to take unpaid leave, pay for flights and two nights accomodation which cost me about £600 at the time, they offered ZERO assistance as it was my choice to apply.

Captain Nomad

27th Jun 2010, 02:32

Even if they don't renew that contract after 6 years then youve still got a ****load of hours on a jet so you can do what you like with it. If you don't like jet flying, im sure any other lower level job that's out there would take you on with that kind of experience.

Not so, in some cases this will become a hinderance not a help. It may come as a surprise but some employers of a 'lower level job' may not actually want your co-pilot jet time... There's not whole lot of anything you can do with a bunch of co-pilot time. Anyway, why would you go back to a 'lower level job?' So you can work your way back up the ladder so that maybe you can get back in to an airline to fly the all important shiny jet for dirt money all over again...?! :ugh:

The only reason why Jetstar are doing this is so that they can MAYBE employ you on THEIR terms and pay you LESS for LONGER. A long way from what I would call a 'win, win.'

If you think it is a good idea, it might be - for Jetstar, but not for you!

Believe it or not but there are people here with lifetimes of experience in the industry who can see what is really going on and are trying to offer a genuine warning...

Cirronimbus

27th Jun 2010, 02:42

"IMO if the company was serious about doing things professionally then surely they could organise travel for those where spare seating was available, offer some kind of accommodation assistance rather than just expecting people for have the savings to pay for this kind of an event."

Of course the company could organise such things. Why would they bother though? If people think buying a job is such a good idea then those people would also think paying for the interviews is ok too.

Perhaps it is all part of the interview process? They are just testing you to see just how much you are willing to fork out and what you are prepared to pay for.

Fools and their money........?

multi_engined

27th Jun 2010, 09:43

I understand it is people's choice whether they want to spend the money. In general a lot of those applying don't have a lot of experience and imo don't really have an understanding on how much of a joke this is.

From what people have told me from their exp in the industry things use to be much more about teaching people how to fly rather than the now making money out of people learning how to fly.

Angle of Attack

27th Jun 2010, 10:31

IMO if the company was serious about doing things professionally then surely they could organise travel for those where spare seating was available, offer some kind of accommodation assistance rather than just expecting people for have the savings to pay for this kind of an event.

Your Kidding right? This is Jetstar they will make money out of everything including applicants! Either way the applicants are going to be spending so much dosh that they don't have to care! In fact they will be making money out of this scheme thats what is so stuffed about it!

ausflying

28th Jun 2010, 02:13

I know it's only early days yet, but has anyone heard anything following their testing/interview day(s)? I would assume the ab-initio guys would be first to hear because they did their testing first.

hueyshuffle

28th Jun 2010, 04:53

Hey just wondering if anyone knows what job prospects would be at the end of the 6 year bond? Assuming you have your ATPL by the end of it (because you already had the command time req'd), would you have a good chance at getting into another carrier or would you be considered less qualified or employable because you've done the cadetship?

Anyone gone past stage 1 after applying for the ACP? Any info appreciated

breakfastburrito

28th Jun 2010, 05:51

Aspiring j* cadets:
There is no "low cost" Fuel.
There are no "low cost" Aircraft.
There are no "low cost" Spares.
There are no "low cost" Landing charges.
There are no "low cost"Airport Handling charges*.

Given the small cost of the pilots per seat (typically 1/10 of the airport landing & handling charges alone), it may surprise you to know that for the rest of your career, it will be you that the managers come after to extract cost savings. You ARE the weak link, you are one of the few "cost" items that management can control. Even better if they can turn a profit out of training their crew

The margins that LCC's work on simply do not allow for to pay for training pilots, think about it. There is not a snowflakes chance in hell that this scheme would have passed muster with the board without a business case to show an excellent rate of return. Managers are not going to invest one cent unless they think they will get back their cent plus some.

The intent of these sorts of scheme's is to turn the junior pilots into paying pax. There are enough sufficiently qualified pilots coming through the GA system to satisfy demand, so why start the scheme? REVENUE.

See for yourself, directly from the pilots agreement you will work uper. Remember, it will take around 4 years to before you will have sufficient experience to be a "full" FO.
In that 4 years, your gross income will have just exceeded the cost of your training. In other words, you have spent 5.5 years (1.5 training, 4 years work) of you life effectively without pay. Sure, now you have a qualification & industry experience. As to what you can do with that experience? Who could say. You may well be offered a command somewhere in S.E Asia on local condition for a franchise of j*, perhaps a Middle East carriers will employ you. I think you'll will be lucky to gain an Australian based command.

“Junior First Officer” means a pilot who is appropriately trained, licensed and endorsed to act as a First Officer, but has insufficient experience to qualify for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence (ATPL).

Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement, 2008 (http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/agreements/wpa/CAUN084584255.pdf), Page 4

25.1 Base Salary
JUNIOR FO (60% of Level 2 FO)
1 Jan 2008 $52,271
1 Jan 2009 $53,839
1 Jan 2010 $55,454
1 Jan 2011 $57,118
1 Jan 2012 $58,831
Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement, 2008 (http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/agreements/wpa/CAUN084584255.pdf)

* Some airports have separate LCC charge schedule, with reduced services.

Gnadenburg

28th Jun 2010, 08:52

I don't think the great jobs abroad will still be there for J* Cadets in a decade.

They will compete with thousands of other underpaid, in-debt pilots (like Indians ) for jobs that are a shade of their former COS's.

Why?

Because airlines will recognize their predicament and their pliability due debt and career hopes. And adjust conditions accordingly. J* cadets will leave the Australian lifestyle in the hope of a quick command abroad and the monetary advantage of not paying as much tax.

The haves and have nots amongst pilots will be more obvious. And they will be bitterly envious with nobody to blame but themselves!

Rant over and in summary. Pilot shortage or not, the high paying jobs won't be abroad and it's your own fault. The airlines know your price.

Roxy_Chick_1989

28th Jun 2010, 09:42

To anyone considering this scheme:

Just an observation I have made (which I have no opinion of, but i noticed) is that the only people who are slamming this cadetship are the GA guys. I'll let you interpret that however you want.

PS: I have no interest in this cadet program.

Gnadenburg

28th Jun 2010, 10:00

I am slamming it because it's a game changer dramatically affecting the future of young Australian pilots.

I have 14,000 hours mostly in airlines, am 40 and thanks to this great industry can afford to retire.

sumtingwong

28th Jun 2010, 10:11

Roxy, refer to Gnadenburgs excellent post(s).

About GA pilots being the only voice of dissent; you are wrong, just plain wrong.

If you had no interest in the J star scheme then why would you bother posting?:ugh:

multi_engined

29th Jun 2010, 03:20

Gnadenburg (http://www.pprune.org/members/53647-gnadenburg)

I am from GA industry but can you explain how these numbers add up? When I was 17 a friend of mine did the Qantas cadetship and is now a 747 FO. After spending around $90,000 he was trained from zero to 767 FO...

How does Jetstar calculate someone with an ATPL and IFR require another $84,000 +- to do an A320 endo plus CRM and TEM courses?? I'm guessing ab-initio course will cost around $150,000 - 160 mark.

What these cadets are missing is the valuable GA experience which will make them better pilots in the end...

breakfastburrito

29th Jun 2010, 03:45

Roxy Chic, I'm not from GA, with 7500+ RPT jet & with 20+ years in the industry. I'm also agnostic on the cadet/GA/military background.

I am slamming this scheme because anyone that OWES their employer for 6 years is going to be extorted, mark my words.

Anyone that signs up for this scheme will have demonstrated to their potential employer they lack rat cunning, are gullible, breathtakingly naïve & ripe for exploitation. This is a path to becoming an indentured serf.

Yeh, what would us old skool crusties know.

Billy747

29th Jun 2010, 04:26

Just for those who are unsure....

I was asked in for testing, after a lot of research and lots of phone calls I have withdrawn my application for the ACP.

Too many things didn't add up. I know that one pulling out won't make a difference however it has to start somewhere.

The whole situation is just wrong, its exploiting our passion and what we love doing...

Having said that good luck to those who are going for it, just think twice like i did.... ;)

boardpig

29th Jun 2010, 05:13

"What these cadets are missing is the valuable GA experience which will make them better pilots in the end..."

I'm not disagreeing but wonder how much GA experience contributes to a high tech, multi crew environment. GA has always focused on the one pilot, rely on yourself type approach. The flight deck of modern jet is about technology and systems management and multi crew discipline.
Again just being the devils advocate here but if all these guys want is a career in modern jets, do they really need GA experience?

(this is the initial expenditure argument aside. Any employer which asks YOU to pay to be interviewed by THEM is tantamount to daylight robbery.)

BP.

multi_engined

29th Jun 2010, 05:30

It matters when they finish their cadetship and still cannot do crosswind landings...

The Green Goblin

29th Jun 2010, 08:20

here but if all these guys want is a career in modern jets, do they really need GA experience?

GA you start off a single pilot VFR type operator and end up a multi crew captain.

All this happens in stages and by the end you are very ready to jump into the right seat of an airliner after being a skipper on a Metro/Braz/Dash/Saab.

So no, GA doesn't mean you've jumped from a 210 into a 737, but rather built your skills and experience through 2000-3000 hours of flying.

gettin' there

29th Jun 2010, 08:56

Again just being the devils advocate here but if all these guys want is a career in modern jets, do they really need GA experience?

Would you have brain surgery done by a 21 year old surgeon fresh out of uni? Surgeons only have 1 person's lives in their hands at a time and it takes 10 years + to make a surgeon. How many people does an A321 seat again?

I have never flown anything bigger than a bug smasher twin but i really don't belive that someone who has 250hrs TT can be as capable (especially in non-normal situations) up the front of an aeroplane that weighs several hundered tons as somone who actually has some experience. I know i couldn't fly for :mad: as a fresh CPL and I still have a hell of a lot of learning ahead of me before I would feel confident enough in my own abilites to have a couple of hundred punters down back.

Bo777

29th Jun 2010, 09:00

especially in non-normal situations such as the captain incapacitated ... i'm scared.

brubin

29th Jun 2010, 09:16

Any one have any info on the panel interview? the structure, questions asked?

Water Wings

29th Jun 2010, 23:53

My take on the whole thing.

You build experience by making mistakes and learning from them. Those with low hours have not had the chance to make or learn from their mistakes and as a result have no experience on which to call on when things go wrong other than pulling out the book. General Aviation (in my opinion) tends to weed out those that simply can not do the job properly, which means those progessing from GA to the airlines generally know what they are doing. I say generally because I do accept some slip through the gaps.

The few low houred pilots I know who have gone to airlines have been less than steller pilots. One crashed a C206 on a low level go around simply because he did nothing with his feet, the plane yawed left and into some trees (bush strip). He could not find a job elsewhere in Africa after that but returned to Europe and is now sitting in the righthand seat of a 737. So here we have someone who lacked basic stick and rudder skills who now sits in the front of a plane carrying 180 passengers simply because he had the money to pay for a type rating. :ugh:

Another example. Speaking with a Captain at a party once, he was telling me about a recent ILS approach into an airfield on a rather nasty day. He commented that in all his time sitting in the Left Hand seat, the only time he had EVER considered needing to take over from the FO was on this approach. The FO was simply overloaded and not coping. You couldn't really blame the FO though, he was a former Cadet with no real world experience and had never flown in wind like this before which leads me back to my first statement.

I have no doubt there are many great Cadets out there but I think my concern and the concern of many other pilots is that some not so great Cadets are also getting through. Even if (as some say) the experience gained in GA is not really relevant to today's airlines, I like the thought of the pilots up front (or beside me) having scared themselves a few times and learnt from it because that my friends, is one really gains experience.

ausflying

30th Jun 2010, 00:08

Any one have any info on the panel interview? the structure, questions asked?

baby steps mate, you've got to get through the psych and skills first :ok:

Wally Mk2

30th Jun 2010, 00:14

"WW" whole hardheartedly agree but it's a different beast these days aviation right or wrong:)
Yr thoughts & mine as well as many others are slowly being 'weeded' out to end up with a product (Gen Z) that is type specific trained therefore needing no previous experience.

Wk2

boardpig

30th Jun 2010, 02:24

"Would you have brain surgery done by a 21 year old surgeon fresh out of uni? Surgeons only have 1 person's lives in their hands at a time and it takes 10 years + to make a surgeon. How many people does an A321 seat again?"

Its hardly brain surgery though is it. I'll probably get shot down for saying it but there is a gulf of difference between the two. I also don't agree that the amount of people behind you should make a difference, what then about train or bus drivers? (most of whom make more?).

I don't think there is ANY substitute for experience but I do wonder about the Ryan air scheme where 250 hr greenies get into the right seat of a 737 and it "SEEMS" to be working?

I guess my point is how much stick and rudder skills do you really need to fly a modern jet?

As always, happy to be enlightened!
BP.

breakfastburrito

30th Jun 2010, 02:34

I guess my point is how much stick and rudder skills do you really need to fly a modern jet?
Automation didn't save the Turkish B737NG in Amsterdam.
Airbus "automation" abandons you below 100' in manual flight.
Automation will not save you close to the ground. Until you've actually seen an autoland from the flightdeck you wouldn't believe how primitive it really is. Sure it will get you on the ground in benign WX (fog), but turbulent & gusty conditions it will have you sitting on the edge of your seat. That goes for a Boeing or the Bus.

Stick & rudder is still vital.

Artificial Horizon

30th Jun 2010, 03:22

What a load or rubbish. GA experience can definately be an advantage, no question about that. But saying that a pilot without GA expeirience is somehow dangerous and will never make a good pilot is just wrong! Once again, I have flown with dozens of Captains who apart from the basic training they completed as a cadet have never set foot in anything apart from a modern airliner. I have flown with Captains who are ex-GA and ex-Military, the worst I have ever flown with was ex-RAF, does that mean that all ex-RAF pilots are crap airline pilots.... NO. Waterwings, if your mate was so concerned about the FO flying the ILS approach in such conditions then he should have taken over, that is his job as a Captain, that is why he is there. As for the bloke who pranged his 206 and is now on a 737, don't forget that regardless of whether you pay for the rating or not, you still have to pass the same flight tests and written exams as everyone else, you can't buy your way through these. Infact from my experience cadets are often put under extra scruitiny purely for the fact that it is known they don't have a big pool of experience to draw upon. Some cadets will not be able to cope with the training, they ones that pop out the other end will make perfectly good airline pilots. By the way I know people with big GA backgrounds who themselves have failed to meet the standard of airline flying, so don't for a second think just because you have a few years flying a clapped out single around this will mean you will make a good jet pilot.:ugh:

By all means attack the cadetship for being poor value due to the cost involved and the potential for it to reduce terms and conditions across the board, but please don't pedal the line that people who come through this scheme are all going to be bad pilots. That is just rubbish. By the way, I have both GA and Cadetship experience (although I didn't have to pay anything for my sponsorship) I think that this is a poor scheme due to the cost and if it were me I wouldn't be signing up for it, it is too expensive and the 6 year bond is too long. I will not though discourage others as it is their own choice, and when I get to fly with them I will keep an eye on them just like I keep an eye on anyone else sitting on the flightdeck with me.:eek:

das Uber Soldat

30th Jun 2010, 03:29

Youre arguing the exception to try to prove the rule.

On average, the 3000 hour GA pilot is going to be better in the right seat when things go to **** than a 250 hour cadet. Enough crashes due pilot error have occured to demonstrate that simply being able to pass the airline line check is not automatic qualification for "good pilot".

How did the low time Qlink trainees on average go again?

Water Wings

30th Jun 2010, 03:52

Waterwings, if your mate was so concerned about the FO flying the ILS approach in such conditions then he should have taken over, that is his job as a Captain, that is why he is there.

I'm afraid Sir you have missed my point.

Yes you are spot on in regards to the job of the Captain. The point I was making is that this was the only time he had ever needed to CONSIDER the possiblity of taking over. The former GA pilots in the fleet having actually having flown in conditions like this being better able to remain on top of the situtation which was what my post primarily about...experience.

Di_Vosh

30th Jun 2010, 04:05

Are you debating cadetships in general, or the current J* cadetship?

I tend to agree with AH: That is, cadetships in general aren't necessarily a bad thing.

Besides, there are plenty of "cadet vs. GA vs. Mil" threads on Prune. I doubt very much whether you'll get any points of view on this thread that haven't been thrashed out in the other ones.

The current J* cadetship, OTOH, is little short of financial slavery, IMHO :yuk:

DIVOSH!

Di_Vosh

30th Jun 2010, 04:14

How did the low time Qlink trainees on average go again?

Das, it depends on which ones you mean.

The courses from April - December 2008 had plenty of 200 hour pilots. Most of them (AFAIK) did pretty well and are still going well. All of the Qantas cadets that we've had (or still have) are going well (most of them were around the 200 hour mark when they joined).

A lot of the guys who had problems were older and/or more "experienced".
One guy who was on my course had problems during his course and still had "issues" flying the line (and in the sim) 18 months later. He started at Qlink with 1800 hours. One of my mates didn't get through the sim sessions this year, and he had over 2500 hours (including twin turbine command hours).

DIVOSH!

Bo777

30th Jun 2010, 05:04

DIVOSH I agree with some of your post (financial slavery being the main point of this cadetship). However, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you've ever flown with these 200hr cadets/trainees on line being in the left hand seat have you?
Ask any captain who has and sometimes (not always) and in some instances CAVOK wind calm conditions its like sh:mad:tin bricks.

Di_Vosh

30th Jun 2010, 05:42

Bo

You're right! I've not flown with these guys; I'm still an FO.

Ask any captain who has and sometimes (not always) and in some instances CAVOK wind calm conditions its like shtin bricks.

And you're right about that as well. But I've spoken with captains who've flown with new FO's with over 2000TT and they've had exactly the same experience as you described above.

The point I was trying to make was that JUST BECAUSE someone is a cadet, doesn't mean that they're going to be crap! Experienced GA pilots can be just as crap when flying "for the airlines"

Hope that explains

DIVOSH!

das Uber Soldat

30th Jun 2010, 05:57

Youre also arguing the exception to prove the rule. Yes, there will be some low time guys who will be good. Yes, there will be some high time guys that arent.

So your core point is fine, just because youre a cadet, it doesnt mean youre automatically bad. Thats fine.

But averaged out across the line, the standard is going to be lower than much higher time GA people who have battled against a 30 year old piston twin trying to kill them for the last 3 or so thousand hours. Surely thats a given and is evidenced by more than 1 circumstance I can think of.

Di_Vosh

30th Jun 2010, 07:12

Das I'm not sure that we're disagreeing with another in any major way. You earlier posted some generalisations, and my post to you was to point out that generalisations aren't always true (as we all know ;)).

Besides, as I said earlier, I don't think we're going to get any new development on the "GA vs. Cadet" debate.

What my problem is with the J* cadet scheme!

My understanding is that you pay OAA around 170k (plus up to 19.5k for accomm. and meals for 18 months). Then you pay 84k for the advanced bit in HKG (less the 21k that J* put up). You can sacrifice the remaining 63k over 6 years (10.5kpa).

Total outlay is 233k or 254k over a 7 1/2 year period.

Meanwhile your earnings are (roughly):

While you're a Junior FO (58kpa) base pay
Once you're a lvl 2 FO (89kpa) base pay

Let's assume that after 4 years you'll get the quals for the ATPL and become a lvl 2 FO. (This is a big assumption, and you might be a Junior FO for the entire six years of your bond).

So 4x 58 + 2x 89 = 410,000.00 over 7 1/2 years.

Earnings less Outlay = 156,000.00 = just under 23,000.00 pa gross salary.

Sure, there are penalties and allowances on top of your base pay, but you've also got to look where are J* going to base you. Darwin? (Highest rents in Australia), Singapore? (makes Darwin look cheap).

What a great lifestyle! Grossing just over 1/3 of the Australian average full-time wage for 7 1/2 years flying an A320!

You'll finish your bond with zero dollars in the bank (assuming you're not still in debt), and hoping that J* renew your contract (Look at some of the european threads in case you think it can't happen here). If J* don't renew your contract, you'll have very limited options in Oz.

But hey, to all the prospective applicants... Don't say you weren't warned.

DIVOSH!

P.S. I'm more than happy to be proved wrong on the amounts above.

mighty_mouse

30th Jun 2010, 07:34

Divosh,

That is now the 23rd time that exact response has been posted. You've informed us of nothing. :D

Your next post should be about the effect on GA and the industry as a whole, because the past three threads haven't heard much of that either.

You people obviously dont understand the concept of this thread, instead you've all hijacked it to spin negatives and panic about anything and everything. The last post somebody made discussing the cadetship with those applying (the forum's intention), was long ago. You haven't realised that all your all doing is moaning to a group of people who have the same opinion as you... SO START YOUR OWN THREAD! No wonder everyone is fighting tooth and nail to avoid GA, because its filled with bitter and disgruntled pilot's who think it's their way or the highway... and who very much value their anonymity. I suggest you all get a hobby:ok:

Gaius Baltar

30th Jun 2010, 07:56

3 cheers for mighty mouse :)

It wont stop them though :bored:

j3pipercub

30th Jun 2010, 08:08

Start your own thread in the wannabes forum, that's what you are!

You people obviously dont understand the concept of this thread, instead you've all hijacked it to spin negatives and panic about anything and everything.

It's called R.E.A.L.I.T.Y.

But seriously, start your own thread in the WANNABES forum and we will leave you alone

here, I'll even give you the link

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship-104/

You want nothing to do with GA, stop posting in a GA forum!

j3

Di_Vosh

30th Jun 2010, 08:09

LOL! :cool:

I'm well aware that my post was a repeat of several others. It might be the last one of mine, but it wont be the last of that type.

Why? Because people out there (like you, perhaps?) still want to go ahead with this cadetship, despite its financial insanity, because your dream of aviation is blinding you to other realities.

Far from being "bitter and twisted", I had my first flying lesson when I was 38, and am now an FO for Qantaslink (i.e. not GA :}) and couldn't be happier with where I am in my flying career. But I can almost guarantee that a large number of people who do this cadetship will be bitter and twisted by their second year in J*.

So mate, feel free to ignore my advice (most people do anyway :}).

DIVOSH!

P.S. Anonymity? Send me a PM and I'll give you my name and number (most people in Qlink know who I am - Eastern pilots, anyway). Better yet, if you're doing the cadetship, call me in 3 years and let me know how you're travelling.

breakfastburrito

30th Jun 2010, 08:36

I cannot & will not stand by and let a scheme such undermine the entire industry without speaking up. I would not be able to sleep at night if I did.
I and others have endeavoured to cut through the propaganda to provide the raw facts, such as the true cost of the scheme & the likely income.

The FACT is that pilots in the US receive food stamps (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/mikes-blog-1-pilots-food-stamps) - social security just to survive. Quote from that article
I told them about how Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (the pilot who safely landed the jet in the Hudson River) had testified in Congress that no pilot he knows wants any of their children to become a pilot. Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated.

Given the accelerating deterioration in T&C since 2000 in Oz, I see no reason to suggest the future will be any different here.

So no, I WILL NOT SIT BACK AND SHUT THE f#CK UP so you can live your dream, destroy yourself financially & take the rest of us down with you.

27/09

30th Jun 2010, 09:06

MM
No wonder everyone is fighting tooth and nail to avoid GA, because its filled with bitter and disgruntled pilot's who think it's their way or the highway...

I don't see any bitter disgruntled pilots posting on here just some people providing another side of the story.

Two points

Firstly this thread is in a GA Forum so you might expect to find GA pilots replying, Don't you think?!!!!!!!!!

Secondly I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that all that have posted on this thread bagging the Jetstar cadetship are GA pilots. I think several are in the airlines and are providing good feedback for the likes of you.

Open your eyes and take a look at what has happened with cadets in Europe.

Can you tell us why why Jetstar has introduced this programme? There isn't a shortage of pilots.

bushy

30th Jun 2010, 14:08

Some years ago, I spoke to a pilot who had "purchased" 300 hours of Boeing time with an asian airline. When he reached the 300 hour point they did not have any more flying or salary for him. He was looking for a job flying piston engined aircraft in central Australia.
Another pilot was desparately trying to climb the slippery ladder and sent me a resume that claimed qualifications he did not have.
He went to the UK and paid about $130,000 to be retarined. Last I heard he was trying to get a an airline job in Australia.
GA became chaotic when it was flooded with short term, mobile newbies who really wanted airline jobs, and regional and other airlines appear to be going the same way. That is probably one reason why airlines are staring to run cadet schemes that make it more difficult to leave and go to bigger ships elsewhere. It also gives them some control over the number of available new pilots, so they can plan better. They have also passed on the cost of training to the cadets. (like CASA and ASA, they are probably making a profit from the "cost recovery.") Airlines are businesses and are required to make profits for their shareholders.
Even the RAAF expect a return of service in return for training, and run "cadet schemes".
Airline flying is beginning to be like a film star job in Hollywood. A few make big bucks, but it takes luck and many years of impoverished hard work to get there. If you do.
The main problem with the system is the furphy that highly paid airline jobs are usually availablewith a little bit of training.
This lures far too many wannabies and airlines can offer sub standard conditions and still get plenty of applicants.
Only the flying schools and the airlines benefit.

maverick22

30th Jun 2010, 23:14

You want nothing to do with GA, stop posting in a GA forum!

Here Here:D

mighty_mouse

30th Jun 2010, 23:36

hey guys i heard news today that apparently jetstar are accepting all these cadets, and as soon as they get to melbourne, instead of starting their training, the OAA and J* management team are going to EAT THEM!!:eek: Thats just what I heard, but dont say you werent warned!

das Uber Soldat

1st Jul 2010, 00:10

DI VOSH.

All those numbers add up, I agree with everyone's sentiments which is why I withdrew my application for the ACP.

Be nice if everyone else did the same, but I doubt it.

Aerozepplin

1st Jul 2010, 00:47

OAA and J* management team are going to EAT THEM!!

An unintentionally fitting metaphor?

mighty_mouse

1st Jul 2010, 01:00

oh aerozepplin.... you're too much! you and those metaphor jokes. tell me another, except this time do one of your simile routines, they're better.

Aerozepplin

1st Jul 2010, 01:30

Don't give me the credit, the work was all yours.

Personally if I were thinking of joining the cadetship I'd be thrilled by this thread. If I was going to commit to something that large I'd want to hear all the view points. If I could read the negative views yet still feel it was the right thing to do, then my actions would be based on more balanced decision making than just reading the "It'll be a six year orgasm!" that the advertising would most likely be. If you join, and it turns out to be fantastic, then you can have a good chuckle to yourself at the bitter and twisted gnomes still snuffling around in their light twins.

mighty_mouse

1st Jul 2010, 01:34

one of your poorer simile jokes :hmm:

Aerozepplin

1st Jul 2010, 01:55

Got me. It was all a joke. There's nothing worth reading here, and no one knows what they're talking about in any way. The tens of thousands of flight hours, years of experience, and collective wisdom of those who've given opinions is all fake. Damn.

Remember that time your parents told you not to play in traffic because it's dangerous? They were lying because they were just bitter that they couldn't enjoy it anymore due to knee trouble.

solowflyer

1st Jul 2010, 01:55

Let me start out by saying I don't have a problem with Cadetships and there will always be an argument for who is better Mil/GA/Cadet etc depending on who you talk to and what route they took.

After reading most of the posts in this thread there seams to be alot of pepole with a great deal varied experience trying to pass on their hard earned experience and an equal amount of people with stars in their eyes.

To all you people that are going through the process of applying or about to apply good luck and I hope it all works out BUT here is the BUT Please take on board what others have to say and weigh up all oppinions and do your homework befor signing on the dotted line. Six years is a long time and alot can happen in that time lets have a look at a senario that is quite common.

You got in and now in the drivers seat of a A320 you have the uniform and the chicks are lined up at the door. Now looks like the take home pay will be say $800 a week, sweet beats working a Mc D's and still living with mum and dad in Sydney.

So now got the job and the cash lets go get that new Holden you always wanted for say $30g loan thats $150 a week laves you with $650 no worries can handle that.

Work sends you a memmo a few weeks later telling you that you will be getting rebased to Perth oh no got to move out of home accros the country and rent a flat $150 -$200 a week no problem can handle that $450 a week left.

12 months later your girlfriend tells you she is up the duff and so you move into a house togeather she can't work so take away another $200 a week to upgrade to a house. Ok Starting to get worried now $250 a week to live off and bring up a baby on. I need a better paing job. Oh Sh#t still have 4 years left at jet* for till end of bond.

Sound Like this will never happen to you? Well this is what could happen and does happen, its called life and those with experience are trying to help by giving advice as chances are they have been there and done that. Like I said think very carfully before signing on the dotted line.

One other thought what happens if you lose your Medical with 6 years of bond to pay back?

mcgrath50

1st Jul 2010, 02:04

big_mouse,

These guys are not being twisted and jealous. This is the MOST level-headed and reasonable cadet debate I have seen here. Check out some of the QF threads (which is most certainly a fairer scheme) and there you may get close to what you are accusing these guys of.

Listen to their advice, if you want to go ahead with it, it's your choice but if I was going to apply I'd work out how I was going to live off that numbers that people are quoting.

Top_Cat

1st Jul 2010, 02:09

One other thought what happens if you lose your Medical with 6 years of bond to pay back?

This stopped me in my tracks. Wasn't going to apply but never thought about that.

Bo777

1st Jul 2010, 02:09

Now looks like the take home pay will be say $800 a week
I don't know where you got that one from ... more like $400 a week. From a mate in the know ... "they certainly won't be based in Oz".
Loss of licence scheme should cover the costs for cadets stupid enough to sign up to this slavery ... cadets make sure you get it asap.

solowflyer

1st Jul 2010, 02:13

Was being generous:ok:

breakfastburrito

1st Jul 2010, 02:26

mighty_mouse

1st Jul 2010, 02:34

You've all missed the point. All these things you say may very well be valid. But because of your inability to understand the concept of a forum themed for THOSE APPLYING TO THE CADETSHIP, we have no outlet to discuss it. Instead theres not a single one of you intelligent enough to start a thread entitled 'those against the cadetship'. That way those interested could get two different points of view without having every thread shutdown. You all remind us of how qualified and experienced you are, but in your many years of greatness you seem to have not figured out simple gestures of decency. This thread will soon be shutdown, and again we wont be able to discuss anything without being inundated by the same point reworded but 300 different people. As I've said in the past, get a hobby

bushy

1st Jul 2010, 02:53

I suggest you also check the cost of renting an apartment in Perth.

breakfastburrito

1st Jul 2010, 02:58

In case you didn't notice, this is a discussion board, it is moderated & the topic starter doesn't get to "control" the discussion. There is a dedicated wannabe forum (http://www.pprune.org/wannabes-forums-102/), you will find like-minded individuals there without real world experience to assist you.

You seem absolutely determined on a course of action in spite of all the warning signs, your choice. You simply don't want to hear a contrary view. I'm wondering if aviation is for you? Do you know what GRADE stands for?

Other here have expressed that they want to hear the contrary opinion, whilst I may not agree with their decision, I respect their process of logically solving a complex, confusing & difficult problem. These are the people I want to sit behind when I go on holiday.

Oh, and as for the hobby, I've already had my 8.5km bushwalk today.

Bo777

1st Jul 2010, 03:02

MM
Title of thread Jetstar Cadetship (again)........
Forum DG&P General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys
But because of your inability to understand the concept of a forum theres not a single one of you intelligent enough to start a thread in the WANNABE forum. Thinking bubble of the recruiter for MM "Can I sit next to this self-delusional stain for 8 hours a day?" I guess you'll have to do flying as a hobby.

Bing Gordon

1st Jul 2010, 03:10

And Mighty Mouse as j3 said, move your jetstar cadetship thread to the wannabees forum. Every person that opens a jetstar cadetship thread in the GA forum is going to go through this. The people here are GA (both current and ex), and are going to keep giving their opinion on this if it keeps being raised.

I don't think there are too many people that disagree with the premise of a cadetship - if it is done under the right circumstances. You need to understand that Australia (and NZ) are already saturated with highly qualified GA guys who have been working their guts out for years for this opportunity. If the situation was different and the airlines had absorbed all the GA guys who wanted to move on and were still screaming out for more pilots, then sure, get a cadetship going, I don't think there would be much opposition.

Surely you can understand why this upsets people. There has been an unofficial order of progress in Aussie Aviation forever, and the goal posts have just moved. Some people here are trying to give valid info (as the cadetship is truly disgraceful, even if we did need it) and others are simply upset. You are already talking down to these people, the people that will be sitting opposite you when you get on board that jet.

What are you going to say when they ask the inevitable question, "so what's your experience?"

Captain Nomad

1st Jul 2010, 03:18

That way those interested could get two different points of view without having every thread shutdown.

Maybe it hasn't occurred to you but could it be possible that the people on the forum where you have decided to post DON'T HAVE TWO DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW to discuss. Those in this forum can see through the smoke screen of carrots and can only see the negatives and are trying to warn you about them... If you want the other point of view, perhaps go to the J* interview room and talk to those lining up outside with stars in their eyes and fat wallets...

Agree with Bing Gordon, it is the manner in which this cadetship is setup that is really getting up people's nose more than the fact that it is a cadetship. If it wasn't such a money making venture designed to both make money off training pilots and screw down their T&C's at the same time it would probably be a different story... There might actually be a different point of view to discuss...! ;)

sumtingwong

1st Jul 2010, 03:24

At least there may be one good thing to come out of this disgrace of a scam.

Not wanting to put the moxy on it but is it possible we are seeing a glint of unity from pilots, both GA and Airline alike? I don't think I've seen so many reasoned and genuinely helpful replies on any other thread, despite the provocations of some (one) who seem determined to shut this thread down with personal attacks.

Could we hope that finally after some 20 odd years, the bean counters in the industry that is management have taken it a bridge to far? Too much to hope for maybe, but it's a start