Taking your mates up!

[Fast Jet Wannabe]

Now that I've shown some of them the brown book, and we've had a couple of nice days recently, I'm getting hassled more than ever to take mates flying.

It's something I've given great thought to over the past winter months, and a prospect that excites me. However, it's also worrying.

My line of thought is that even my friends who I've been close to for 8 years plus (i.e. through school together) - and I would say I know very well, still haven't been flying in a light aircraft before, and how can I know how they'll react.

I fly a Warrior, but should I take 3 friends at once?

I'd be really interested to hear all your stories of those initial few trips taking non-flyers up with you. Good / nasty experiences, and your thoughts about letting some of them hold the yoke for a while at a safe height etc...

Just a thought to bear in mind, I'm 18, so they are all around that age too. They are all a sensible bunch, trust me, the stupids ones won't be getting anywhere near anything I'm flying!

Thanks!

FJW.

[ 18 February 2002: Message edited by: Fast Jet Wannabe ]</p>

[SteveR]

You can't know how they'll react, so I wouldn't recommend taking loads in one go at the beginning. You've got a duty of care to them, and you won't be able to worry about 3 of them *and* keep the damn thing flying too easily - particularly if anything 'attention getting' happens.

Don't be tempted to take 'em one at a time for a lot of short hops either - you'll get absolutely knackered. (Besides, if you've got 7 people wanting to go, that's 7 people to take on longish flights, over several weeks, and cost share.....)

I had somebody throw up next to me when I had about 100 hrs - luckily he wasn't bothered about it himself, felt loads better afterwards apparently, but the smell didn't help me make cool decisions about getting us home.

Also, I like steep turns, but did on one occasion forget that the pax had never experienced one. I wasn't showing off, I just turned at the bank angle that I wanted, but they haven't forgotten it....

Two words which should never be heard in aviation - "watch" and "this"

SteveR

[ 18 February 2002: Message edited by: SteveR ]</p>

[Keef]

A big "yes" to SteveR's comments.

When I first got my PPL, I took lots of friends flying, and they enjoyed it very much. One was so taken with it, he went off and did his own PPL and now has his own very fine aircraft (and lives in the USA).

BUT ... and the reason why I would say be VERY careful ... a friend of mine, a large, strong chap who would make an unbeatable rugger player, went very white and petrified when I took him flying. He "froze", arms outstretched and locked on the coaming.

If it had been the yoke he locked on, I wouldn't be here now. As it was, I made a "PAN" call and made some extremely gentle turns to get back and down asap.

And he is NOT coming flying with me again, despite all the "I'll be OK now" pleas.

I'd suggest take no more than two, and make sure anyone who hasn't done it before, or who doesn't look like the "natural" type, is in the back where he can't do so much harm.

[FNG]

Worth telling them in advance about things that you now take for granted, but which may be disconcerting to those who have only sat in the back of 737s: eg: significant variations in engine noise according to stage of flight, the fact that the aircraft feels more tippy and bump sensitive than an airliner, the fact that the stall warner may be honking and howling as you hold off beautifully before settling gently onto the runway etc etc. I think that a confidently delivered engine failure safety briefing at the hold, demonstrating the bracing position, adds to passenger confidence, not the opposite. Also get them to help you by calling out aircraft sightings by clock code: it can be most unsettling having a passenger poking your arm whilst wordlessly pointing at an aircraft which may be a far distant Heathrow departure or an imminent collision risk. Lastly, remind them that the rudder pedals aren't foot rests. Oops, sorry, its a Warrior, so they are. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[2Donkeys]

Agree with the other comments posted here.

Just one thought though. Warriors are not the most spritely of beasts, and without any knowledge of what you and your friends look like, going 4 up might be challenging <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Don't learn how to operate a full plane for the first time with 3 of your mates on board.

[OnTheBug]

Couldnt agree more with whats been said already. A good ground briefing on what to expect at various stages is really worth it e.g stall warner on take off if its a bumpy grass runway, current weather (if it looks like its going to be a bit choppy) and actions to take if the fan stops after take off.

Make sure you take plenty of sick bags! I took a mate up who said he could read a book as a passenger in a moving car and has never experienced motion sickness in his life. We did a couple of steep turns over his house and he soon turned white and went very quiet... . .This can be brought on from staring at the instruments too much. Get them to look outside and help with the lookout.

OTB <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[jayemm]

Initially, I found it quite different flying friends and family to flying on my own or with an instructor. The added responsibility of taking care of someone else's life for an hour or two increased the stress and concern levels for me. Don't forget that you're learning something new when you start flying with friends.

So my advice is to do it when you feel confident yourself. I'd take just one person with you for the first few times, and try to pick the mate you think fits with it the best. Even your best mates can be unpredictable in a confined space 2,000 ft off the ground! Once you've completed a few trips and after a few weeks, you'll have the increased confidence to take another and really enjoy it.

Final point, a guy I knew at my flying school filled a 172 with 3 mates as soon as he got his PPL, and only just made it into the air at the end of the runway....his enthusiasm to take mates up clouded his judgement (no weight and balance checks), he was overloaded and luckily got away with it. Do your W&B checks, but my rule is in Cessnas and cherokees, always leave one seat empty.

[LowNSlow]

I know it sounds obvious but it's worth repeating. An aircraft that you have previously flown 1 or 2 up will handle very differently with a few pie-eaters in the back.

As mentioned in a previous post, do the weight and balance calcs. that you haven't bothered with . .when only flying 2 up. Then one of the aforementioned pie-eaters might have to stay on the ground. It gives more confidence to the passengers to be refused entry rather than being told while taxiing back from an aborted take off "OK chunky it's next flight for you".

Also always but always check the actual fuel level in the tanks. Never accept "ah it's OK, just over half full" when your weight and balance shows you should have no more than half tanks. If you're on a long tarmac runway you might get away with it. Bumpy wet grass plus overweight no chance.

[FlyingForFun]

Agree with everything others have said already. Will try not to repeat all the excellent points, but will raise a few other points:

Different people react differently, and it's very important to tune into your passengers. I've done steep turns with several passengers, but only after we've spent 1/2 hour or so flying and I've noticed that they seem perfectly happy with the sensations. If there's any doubt at all in my mind, I'll keep turns to 20 degrees of bank.

Keeping passengers busy helps - it stops them from bugging you, keeps them happy, and it might even help your flying! Having an extra pair of eyes looking for traffic always helps. I wouldn't give my chart to a passenger on a route I'm not familiar with - but if it's a route I've flown several times, and I know I can find my way without the chart, the passenger might (depending on how interested they are!) like to follow on the "map", and you could even delude them into thinking they're being a big help by pointing out roads/towns to you! (If your passenger is a pilot, however, it's completely different - then you can trust the passenger to navigate for you.)

You asked about giving passengers control. This is legal, but is it sensible? I have done this on occassion. I have never promised anyone they can have control, or even mentioned the possibility, until we've been flying for plenty of time and I'm ready to give them control. Even then, I'll only do it if the weather is perfect, if the air isn't too busy, if we're well away from any controlled airspace, if the passenger has demonstrated that they're totally happy with the sensations of flying, and if I'm sure the passenger is a responsible person - a list of requirements which aren't satisfied all that often! I've heard enough horror stories from instructors to know that I don't want to get into the situations which their job forces them into from time to time!

Even then, I'll only let them play around with the ailerons, after a "trial lesson"-style demonstration from me - there's too much that can go wrong with any other control as far as I'm concerned. But I will hapilly demonstrate how all the controls work if the passenger is interested (most aren't, but some are!)

One other thing which no one else has mentioned is flying with pilot-passengers. This can be great fun. You know that the guy sitting next to you will be a good passenger before you start. You can share the duties, which takes away some of the stress and leaves more time for enjoyment. It's fun, for example, to have one of you navigating and the other flying for the first leg, and then swap over for the return leg. (But don't let the passenger take off or land unless they're current on type.)

The most important thing, after safety, is for your passengers to enjoy themselves. The next most important thing is for you to enjoy yourself!

FFF. .---------

[Whirlybird]

All really good stuff, and I've very little to add to it. One thing I don't think has been mentioned; I ask people not to talk to me until after take-off when I tell them it's OK, and the same before landing. You don't need your workload increased by: "Why do you..." at 50ft during a crosswind landing (happened to me once). But I do tell them that if they're interested I'll talk through what I'm doing; some want to know, some would rather look at the view.

I'd err on the side of caution. I HAVE had someone freeze on the yoke when I asked her if she'd like to try flying, only for a few seconds luckily, but it scared the hell out of me. I took up three passengers in a C172 soon after getting my PPL - different handling, wx not great, too much talking, general overload, and as a result I scared one of them (and myself) with a not-so-brilliant landing, and I've probably put her off flying for good. And I feel bad about that.

When I got my PPL I, like you, wanted to take everyone everywhere. Now, a few years later, I'm quite careful who I take up, and what we do and where we go. I hope someone else can learn from my mistakes, not feel compelled to make their own.

[Aussie Andy]

I agree with the points made by jayemm - I too found it different flying friends and family to flying on my own or with an instructor.

I would definitely take just one person the first time, and make this on a route you know well in the local area. This is for your benefit more than their's.

I remember well the first time I had an aircraft full of 3 non-flying pax. It was in Piper Dakota (PA28-236) to which I had only recently converted, adn ti was the first time I had taken off in this on the grass with flap, as opposed to on the tarmac with no flap. No big deal, but it was amazing how nervous I felt during the take-off roll and until I'd cleared the circuit - I just felt so responsible for these innocent people - my friends - and this feeling nearly overwhelmed me! Once I was about 5 minutes into the flight, I felt fine - in fact it was an excellent shower-dodging trip to Wolverhampton, with some great pax who were really interested in what was happening. I was also able to give them a turn at the controls (just aierons) on the way home - its lovely to see how this excites people (those that want to - I had one who was VERY afraid to touch anything!).

Anyway, I've done similar flights several times since and I am fine with it now - but I am much more conservative on weather, wind etc. limitations if I have non-flying pax with me than if I have another pilot in the aircraft.

Always brief your passengers on the ground - practice this when you take the first one on their own. I always point out a few things - how the seatbelt works, how to open the door, what will happen if the engine fails ("don't worry - I can easily land in a field, but I'll ask you to brace and perhaps to open the door if I can't"), and I reassure them that if at any stage they feel uncomfortable they should tell me and I can quickly get us back on the ground. Point out: sick bags, fire extinguisher and first-aid kit.

In the air, if they are doing OK, I ask them to look out for other aircraft and to not hesitiate to tell me if they see something. I also try to remember to warn them of the changes in engine noise on the approach and not to worry about the stall warner horn going off. I usually have a spare map, and show them the route and let them follow-along if they are so inclined.

I agree with Whirlybird too - tell people you'll be abit busy and need to concentrate a bit, so please not to interrupt you when you are landing and taking off - and DEFINITELY remember to make sure front-seat pax have their feet nowhere near the bl**dy rudder pedals!

But again, I think that in the early stages, its more of a worry how YOU feel, so take it slow at the start - just one or two initially before taking up a big group, and also initially remove navigation stress from the equation and stay local.

Another thing to watch out for is that you can feel rushed on the ground if your pax are present when you are planning, checking tech log, wx or NOTAMs etc. Get there half-an-hour before they do, then you'll be relaxed when they arrive knowing you've checked off the major tasks.

Hope this helps,

Andy

[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: Aussie Andy ]</p>

[TheKentishFledgling]

2Donkeys wrote:. . [quote] Don't learn how to operate a full plane for the first time with 3 of your mates on board. <hr></blockquote>

Does this mean you should try and learn how to operate a full machine with people you don't like? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

MDR

[dublinpilot]

Do you not need an instructor rating to give someone else control of the plane?

[Julian]

Its a good point about mates.

When I undertook my IR check flight the instructor kept interjecting the exam with rambling conversation, especially at the holds points when I had to ask him to hang on a mo whilst I spoke to the tower.

When I mentioned it on my return to the instructor his reply was "oh yeah..forgot to warn you about that...he does it on purpose to see how you would cope when you have a high workload and one of your mates you have taken up wants to chat to you". Apparently one of the things he looks for is that you tell him to 'shut up'

Anyway, got my IR :)

Julian.

[englishal]

You don't need to be an instructor to give control to someone else, but its your responsibility to ensure they're 'competent, of sound mind blah blah' or something like that....

[AerBabe]

Great thread. At the same stage myself. The only passengers I've taken up so far have been FlyingForFun and Send Clowns. Obviously they're both much better pilots than me <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> and both trips were great experience. And a great experience. If you see what I mean! :)

Now I have friends asking to be taken up, and while they may seem sensible and level headed on the ground, there's no knowing how they'll react up in the air. I know I found the first few hours very unnerving... and I wanted...no...was desperate to be up there!

Anyway, I just wanted to add to what everyone else has been saying some advice my instructor gave me just before my GFT:

Never take anyone up in conditions you wouldn't take your granny up in.

[Fox_4]

I have taken a few mates flying since I got my PPL a while ago. As long as they understand that you are entirely responsible for them the whole time and if you tell them to wind their necks in at any point its for the good of everyone, then it seems to work out fine. Saying that, all my friends are fairly level headed and understand a little about aviation. But its a very strange and also rewarding experience, especially when they have a massive smile on their face from the barrel rolls and loops you have just flown.. .On the flip side I went back to fly with a mate instructing on tucanos and it was a very fun experience, especially since we were good mates thru valley. Never feels the same with a whirly thing propelling you along though!

<img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Dusty_B]

All of the above, plus...

Similar to telling pax to button-up while under pressure, warn them that you're always listening in to the radio, and may need to break a conversation at any point to respond (or to listen in). 'Before I talk on the radio, I'll say "Transmitting". Everyone is to stop talking straight away'.

Always take spare headsets. I have my own, and will always take two similar ones out from the club - a spare in case of a failure, and similar in case mine isn't compatible.

Back to not rushing your pre-flight checks.... .I took my neighbor up a couple of weeks ago (only my 4th passenger, after Mum, Dad and girlfriend). Because it was just the two of us, I talked him through everything we did - from checking the TAFs, METARs and NOTAMs over the internet from home, through to signing the techlog and picking out headsets. We then booked out and did the walk round together.... and so on, through all the checks - explaining what each instrument did (basically), and what he could be looking out for (limitations) on the enginge instruments.. .This paid off when, for the return flight (another £120 bacon sandwich from Wellesbourne)... On arrival we were advised to stop on the taxiway and push back onto the grass to park, because the ground was so soft. When I tried to taxi off again, I was almost at max power, and the kite just wasn't moving. I pulled the throttle back, and began to think of my options... shutdown and pull forward, wait waggle the rudder a bit... and as I did so my pax piped up, "ummm - breaks".... .It was nice to know that he'd spotted it, and that he might just have noticed something else too...

[bertiethebadger]

A few more thing to consider:

When you cut the power down when landing, the ac will glide like sack of spuds (slight exageration). Use the descent to circuit height to get a feel for this. Also consider landing distances.

...and taking off is the opposite. Long run, low rate of climb.

Depending on your airfield & size of friends, 4 up in a warrior is possibe (skinny ones to the rear please!) but you will probably need the fuel on tabs or below. Like others have said - Check W&B.

BtB

[Fast Jet Wannabe]

A few people have mentioned the W&B issue of taking 4 up in a Warrior.

This, for me, is actually quite an interesting point, as although I have regulary flown the Warrior with 3 pax (i.e. my flight instructor on the right and two other flying school students in the back) - this has always been from PIK.

Now, however, I'm planning on joining Panshangar! Not quite the same TODA!

I'm by no means fat - and my mates are generally speaking all equally sporty types (i.e. Not an ounce of fat between us) and I am used to flying the beast with the weight of 4 people. Its just that runway length...

Thank you, people. A lot of well informed and very interesting replies! Please keep them coming if theres more out there!

[Who has control?]

Don't feel pressured into flying your mates if the weather is a bit marginal. You may feel OK, but the object is for your friends to enjoy themselves.

Explain the situation, but take the opportunity to sit your mates in the aircraft & show them the knobs & taps. They will probably be keener than ever after that.

(And yes, I do speak from experience)

[Rusty Cessna]

FJW,

If you're worried about TODA mate, do your W&B and performance calculations, best to be sure.

Rusty.

[jayemm]

I took my kids up who thought it was great. Trouble is the 5 year-old, who enjoyed it the most, kept trying to imitate my R/T and making engine noises which was very distracting. Get him to use dummy headphones you might say; trouble is, I wanted to be able to talk to him in case he got worried or to point out something of interest.

A gob-full of sweets (his gob not mine) and some stern words sorted it.

I did see a post about six months ago on another forum, in which an attractive female passenger found the whole thing so exciting she tried to fulfil her enjoyment in flight. It's really quite tricky pulling back on the yoke with a head in the way apparently, so keep it as a fantasy.

[Captain Numpty]

Some excellent and very valid points made here....nice one chaps.

One extra comment however thay may help?........

Stick in 10 degrees of flap if you have someone in the back, and go for a rotate speed of 85....for it helps to make a smooth lift off.

Enjoy your flying........I am!

C.N.

[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: Captain Numpty ]</p>

[FlyingForFun]

Good point about take-off distance.

The first (in fact, only) time I put 4 people in a Warrior, I did a W&B calculation, and figured out how much (or should I say how little) fuel I could take to be within max gross weight. I was happy with that, and just about to put the manuals back, when I figured I may as well do the performance calculations "since I've got the manuals handy - it's good practice, and I haven't done one since my PPL skills test." I was shocked to find that I'd be going off the end of the runway taking off at Compton Abbas! Definitely do those performance calculations!

While I was trying to figure out how to get out of Compton Abbas (without the extra acceleration provided by the down-slope a few yards off the end of the runway!) I discovered that the CAA suppliment to the PA28-161 POH contains figures for a standard, no-flaps take-off, but not for a short-field take-off. Don't know if other manuals are the same, but my instructor recommended the following:

In the main manual are the performance figures which Piper published, which the CAA have decided we're not allowed to use. But Piper's figures are far more thorough - they include take-off charts for a no-flaps take-off, and for a short-field take-off. Find out from these graphs the percentage reduction in take-off distance using the short-field technique, then apply this percentage reduction to the numbers you get out of the CAA's graphs. It seemed to work, because we got off the ground shortly before the start of the down-slope! :)

FFF. .-----------

[farcanal]

Excellent tip passed to me by an RAF instructor-when flying friends for the first time always make steep turns to the left i.e. when orbiting ground features of interest to the right hand seat passenger.Apparently it is much more reassuring for the passenger to be seated above the pilot in a steep turn & I have to say that even the most nervous of people have not had a problem.Only thing you have to watch out for is the sudden appearance of a camera in the left hand side of the cockpit.

[PFO]

I would echo all other postings so far.

I always get the pax involved on the walk-round, pointing out such things as:

"two fueltanks, two fuel pumps, two electric systems for added safety - if one fails the other automatically takes over".

I also offer to fly a circuit for someone who is "not sure" - we can land after the circuit if they are not 100% happy - if they say eys then it is a touch and go!!!!!!!

PFO