Anyone fly Gyrocopters/Autogyros?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I am in the very tentative phases of deciding to buy one. It would be immensely useful if the UK's premier expert in the field were to make himself known to me here.

Alternatively anyone with any experience whatsoever would be more than welcome to make me the beneficiary of their wisdom.

Cheers,

WWW

[PURPLE PITOT]

I too have always had a strange attraction to these weird and wonderfull machines.

I believe there is a guy at Carlisle who specialises in this kind of thing, Roger Savage i think.

I too would be interested in more info.

WWW i hear that you are aflicted with the same rugby players build as me, you might find weight is a problem for many of these designs!

[This message has been edited by PURPLE PITOT (edited 18 June 2001).]

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I'd be interersted to hear from someone who flys them. They look fun, but they do have a dreadful accident record. A pilot from our club was killed in one while training somewhere in Yorkshire.

SSD

[Whirlybird]

I've had a couple of trial lessons with Roger Savage up in Carlisle; yes, they are lots of fun. Need hardly any distance for takeoff, and can land on the spot if there's almost any wind at all. Engine failure is no problem; you just float gently down to earth. Landing I managed on my first lesson; take-off is a bit harder, but I can't remember exactly why. Main disadvantage is they're very noisy. Also, there are only 7 instructors in the country, so you might have to travel quite a way to find one.

They're basically fairly safe, and most of the accidents were in the early days when there were no 2-seater gyros, so people learned by an instructor talking to them from the ground; not the case any more. But there have been a couple of accidents recently, which have started the whole safety discussion off again.

There's loads of stuff on the Internet about them; do a search. The best is Mel's Gyro Page; a chap called Mel Morris Jones who flies gyros and lives somewhere in the West Country.

I was originally looking for a cheap alternative to helicopters, and gyros didn't quite make it as they couldn't hover, but they still fascinate me.

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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[SteveR]

There's one based at Rochester. Very swish, all shiny glass fibre, veneer dashboard, gold hoses on the engine. 100 per hour instruction I gather. It never fails to draw a crowd when it's being used.

Steve R

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well thanks for that everyone. I'd seen the Carlisle site - he looks like the kind of guy I would want to talk to. I am interested in that M16 jobby with that rotax turbo'd engine - having dealt with 44,000lb of thrust all day I need something with at least a little bit of poke to play with (excluding the missus)...

Will 14 stone of prime welsh stallion really be too much for such a machine? I am a fat barstand but I am also very very short... think of the C of G benefits.... ;)

Cheers guys,

WWW

ps just think of actually landing in your pub beer garden in such a machine, unstrapping and marching in for a pint - you'd be a legend!

[Whirlybird]

WWW,

You might be a legend, but except in mid-summer you'd also be frozen stiff, especially in mid-Wales. The VPM M16 or whatever it's called is open cockpit with your head above the windscreen, and at 70 kts that is coooollllddd. Definitely try before you buy. I'm pretty sure that weight is not a problem though.

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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[Pielander]

There's supposed to be an article on whirling death machines in the August edition of "Today's Pilot".

Pie

[Yogi-Bear]

There was a spate of accidents to quite experienced pilots in the late 60s and 70s (including a very public one at Farnborough). The scene went quiet for some years and now we are recycling with exactly the same type of accidents. Reading those accident reports should be de-rigeur. The two lethal problems appear to be mast bumping and unloading the rotor disc caused by a push-over or turbulence. Can't say much about the former except that it might be an inherent fault of the teetering hub rotor head. The latter is a gotchyer. You must maintain positive G in all manoeuvers. Any unloading of the rotor causes it to slow down and below a critical rpm it will not speed up again. The rotor flails and fails and the ROD becomes something akin to 32ft./sec./sec. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif I've seen a film of it happening to Ken Wallis but he was only 20' high, yet amazingly, walked away from it. :)



[This message has been edited by Yogi-Bear (edited 20 June 2001).]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I wasn't planning on going as high as 20ft in them... :) ;) !!

Strictly a low level sunny day big boy toy for use in rural rural mid-Wales. I spent all this time blatting around N.Wales in Gazelles and Yellow Wessex's you see and it has rather given me a taste for this sort of thing...

Checking the stats its still 4 times safer than me buying a motorbike...

And I am a careful wee swine.

WWW

[Whirlybird]

WWW,

How about a REAL helicopter? There was a Rotorway Exec for sale in my village recently, not too far from you; it might still be around. £35,000 I think; OK, a bit more than a Gyro, but more fun too :). And I think I saw one in a mag recently for £20,000; if you're interested I'll try to find it again.

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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Unfortunately 165hrs mil turbine rotary time has spoiled me somewhat - light piston heli's are not for me.

WWW

[JP5A]

WWW

Having spent the past 30 yrs flying fixed wing and the addition in the past two years of rotary I had my first spin in the gyrocopter with R.C.last Sunday at Carlisle.
Brilliant fun and plenty banter from the many pilots who have built and fly their own machines.One guy told me it only costs £15 p.h.to run his single seater which is a darn sight cheaper than £140 for a Robbo.
We are looking to form a group around our pub crowd and base it in our local farmers field.
For someone used to flying a C401 it was a little disconcerting for the first 10 minutes to be sat,like a pea on a drum,in an open cockpit,but I enjoyed the low level stuff immensly.It's like a flying motorbike and,more immportantly,within most peoples reach.
I must read up on the accident reports but negative g is bad news in a Robbo so I am familiar with that.
Anyway,good luck.I'm sure we are going to see more of them around.

[Negative 'G']

Quote:

"I must read up on the accident reports but negative g is bad news in a Robbo so I am familiar with that."


Why am I bad news in a Robbo ? :)

[ShyTorque]

Negative G,

If you have ever bumped your mast you will know just how painful it can be!

ShyT

[The Nr Fairy]

Yogi :

Slight technical correction. Unloading the rotor disk can lead to mast bumping if not immediately corrected or if a bit vigorous. Bumping is a consequence of unloading, not ( to my mind ) a strictly separate phenomenon.

There are recent accident reports, and if you speak to any R22 instructor I'm sure they'll quite happily explain in much more detail.

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For the last bloody time, it's "The En Ar Fairy" . . .

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Yogi

So if the rotor unlaods in turbulence, and unloading causes lead budgie syndrome, and it happens to gyro-gods like Ken Wallis, then surely these whirly aerial motorbikes are complete death traps as the accident record seems to show?

SSD

[Yogi-Bear]

Thank you NRF, It's some time since I last read the bumff so relied on the little grey cells somewhat. :)

SSD, It's only an opinion when all's said and done. These machines appear to handle fundamentally differently from very light helis and a good study of the runes seems called for before embarking. Having read the accident reports over a thirty year period, I do think we re-discover repeatedly what our predecesors have already discovered. Some having paid the price for this knowledge, it seems feckless to ignore their experiences. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by Yogi-Bear (edited 21 June 2001).]

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Yogi

Absolutely agree about learning from past experiences. but I'm still not sure if these machines are safe. Safe as, say, a production GA aircraft. In other words, if you fly it right you'll have no problem, and flying it right does not require superhuman levels of skill and concentration?

I'd love to know 'cause look interesting ;~)

SSD

[Yogi-Bear]

I can't answer an absolute like that but if you like I'll copy some of the old reports when I can (some searching in old Pilot mags)and give them to you next time. Then you decide. OK? :)

WWW, You can buy an ex-MOD Gazelle on a Permit to Fly now at half the price of a CoA version. Then form a kamikazee (or kote) group? Alternatively, (and that's what you wanted?) a Mini 500 heli (only c£15K) looks equally lethal, to the pilot, that is. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

Whirly, A while back an aquaintance bought an Exec 90 and showed it off to all. After a good look around I said, "Very nice Pete, but where do you put your sandwiches?" He didn't keep it very long, because he was starving. ;)



[This message has been edited by Yogi-Bear (edited 21 June 2001).]

[jayemm]

I saw a couple at Old Sarum weekend before last. Don't know if they were based there though.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

So buy a Gazelle, then when the engine is life expired instead of taking out a second mortgage for a rebuilt one, convert the helo into a Gyro?

SSD

[Whirlybird]

I actually had a long chat with Ron Jenkins of the CAA about gyros a while back. He's the sort of chief rotary licensing etc person, don't know his exact title (hope he doesn't read this!). At the time I had a PPL(A) and was close to a PPL(H) and wanted to know how many hours training I'd need for a PPL(G). Anyway, we discussed safety, and he seemed to think they were inherently OK, and that most of the accidents had been due to poor training before it was properly regulated, or poor self-build skills. I must admit what mainly put me off was trusting something with so many moving parts to someone else's DIY skills - or my own for that matter :). But difficulty of flying didn't come into it as far as I remember, and the main snags seemed to be similar to those of the R22, ie negative g and mast bumping if you don't know what you're doing.

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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[SteveR]

I can figure out why negative g might be a problem in rotary aircraft, but what (please) is mast bumping.

(Sounds like a fixed winger getting it wrong on a carrier landing).

Steve R

[Cyclic Hotline]

Check out the US accident statistics for these machines here. (http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/Response2.asp?spage=2&x_page_size=100&sql=select+%2A+from+aviation%5Fquery+where+ntsb%5Fno+is+not+ null+and+ev%5Fdate+%3E%3D+%271%2F1%2F82%27+and+ev%5F date+%3C%3D+%276%2F21%2F01%27+and+acft%5Fcategory+%3D+%27gyr o%27+and+homebuilt+%3D+%27Y%27+order+by+ev%5Fdate+Asc)

These accident rates are for gyroplanes only, do not include homebuilt helicopters. As there is (in my opinion) a complete lack of regulatory control over these aircraft, the only way you can get a feel for safety in this category is to review the accident statistics.

I think that Whirly has hit the nail firmly on the head - these machines are being built by people who do not have the first clue about what they are doing. I have seen workmanship so poor on some of these pieces of equipment, that I do not understand how they ever got airborne at all. Of course, the fact that many people do not know how to operate them doesn't help matters any.

I think that a lot of them get completed then spend the rest of their lives sitting around the corner of a garage, otherwise the accident rate would be even higher!

Scary machines, just like homebuilt helicopters!

Can't get that hyperlink to work right. Sorry about the long string.



[This message has been edited by Cyclic Hotline (edited 21 June 2001).]

[Yogi-Bear]

I’ve had a think overnight. Its surprising what the little grey cells can trawl up after sleeping on it. But I’m away from home at the moment so nothing to refer to. Sorry if this is obvious.

The fundamental difference between auto gyros and helis is that a heli’s rotor is powered whereas the gyro’s relies on airstream for rotation. Consequently air flows downwards through a heli’s rotor but passes upwards through a gyro’s. A heli’s rotor is tilted forwards in s&l flight but a gyro’s is tilted backwards. Lift is derived from the blade’s AoA to the airstream. The teetering head teeters, to adjust the blade’s AoA automatically throughout a revolution to equalise lift around the disc. If you drag the rotor blades through the air fast enough a lift component causes the forward facing blade to advance and a state of equilibrium can be achieved at circa 200 rpm.

Now any change to AoA caused by turbulence or mishandling will upset that equilibrium. The rotor head will teeter trying to maintain the appropriate AoA resulting in rotor speed fluctuations. There is no power drive to maintain rotor speed regardless as in a heli. In extreme cases, the teetering head reaches its stops. Not only does the inertia of the blade impart a shock to the mast but then insufficient AoA is generated. The distribution of lift around the disc is perturbed, exacerbating the problem. (OK SR?) This is the inherent problem of the teetering head. It appears difficult, if not impossible, to manufacture one with sufficient range for the more extreme flight conditions. In a heli, at least you have the engine to help overcome the perturbations. You’re not relying totally on inertia.

The other condition to cause the same problem is the push-over. When the rotor disc is unloaded in a bunt type manoeuvre, the AoA reduces and with it, the lift component that ensures rotation. The rotor slows. In extreme cases the AoA can become negative which positively and rapidly slows the rotor. It doesn’t need a lot to slow the rotor below a critical speed from which it does not recover its rotational speed.

What price an aircraft that shouldn’t be flown in turbulent conditions? I do think that it has been all too easy to blame the pilots’ mishandling for what appear to me to be inherent deficiencies of the concept. Certainly, not fully understood by their pilots but don’t we all rely to some extent on intrinsic good manners? I’m not saying don’t fly them but, if you choose to…… Do you have your answer now SSD? That’s enough from me. I would rather see the argument pursued by more technically knowledgeable types.
But finally,
Q. Have you ever wondered why these machines have such a low aspect ratio fin and rudder?
A. Well, sketch a blade in on a side elevation just missing the top of the rudder and see how far they are designed to go before de-capitating the rudder! One builder modified his with a taller rudder. Guess what happened? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

WWW: You certainly get 12 out of 10 from me for stirring it! Can you do the same for the Instructors’ Forum? :)

[This message has been edited by Yogi-Bear (edited 22 June 2001).]

[Whirlybird]

Yogi,

That certainly makes sense to me, but I'm not technically minded enough to be certain. Maybe we should ask some of the more knowledgable types from Rotorheads what they think.

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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[Yogi-Bear]

You just read my mind! You do the asking. :)

[Whirlybird]

Wilco.

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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[Rusty Nance]

O.K. Where to start? This is my first post to this forum so I'll try not to stray. First, A properly designed gyro is both easy to fly and very safe. However, the number of properly designed gyros is small. I'll first address the turbulence issue. The stability in turbulence is determined by the point at which the rotor thrust line passes the longitudinal axis. If the rotor thrust line passes behind the longitudinal C.G. when an updraft is encountered the nose of the aircraft will lower into the new relative wind. When a downdraft is encountered, just the opposite will happen. If the rotor thrust line passes in front of the longitutinal c.g. then an updraft will cause the nose to pitch up and a down draft will cause the nose to pitch down, this is an unstable condition. The next question should be, well how do you make the rotor thrust line pass behind the c.g.? By placing the propeller thrust line at or below the vertical C.G. and installing a horizontal stabilizer. The dangerous part of flying a machine that is not stable in pitch is when the propellor thrust line is above the vertical C.G. a SIGNIFICANT nose down pitching moment is created when the aircraft approaches zero g. The rotor itself is somewhat tolerant of low G conditions as long as the time period is not excessive (more than 2 seconds, exact number depends on many factors such as blade weight and airfoil.) Machines that have a high thrust line, low vertical C.G. and no horizontal stabilizer will pitch over severly as a result of propellor thrust when the aircraft is unloaded in turbulance. This is the classic power push over. This event can happen very quickly and even quick reflexes by an experienced pilot to reduce power may not be timely enough. A gyro with centerline thrust and an adequate horizontal stabilizer are not prone to power push over, gust induced oscilation, or pilot induced oscilation.
Keep in mind that this information is abreviated. You could write volumes about the stability of the gyroplane. A good place to gather additional information about gyros is the web site http://www.rotorcraft.com they have a conference section with a couple of useful downloads. One is an excellent article written by Jean Forcade on stability of the gyroplane.
I am a gyroplane CFI in the U.S. and will be happy to answer any specific questions via email. I will be out of town intermittently and away from email for up to a week at the time. I am also the Chief Test Pilot for the CarterCopter and don't have internet access when I travel for those duties. I'll shut up for now and I apologize for the spelling. Not one of my strong points.

[Try_Cyclic]

Fellow rotorheads,

A gyro cannot experience mast bumping in the same way a heli does. There is no mast to provide torque. The rotor is allowed to spin on a bearing.
Negative g is still a problem because it leads to loss of attitude control.
This is true of all teetering rotor systems.
Loss of rotor authority means that the gyro can rotate itself right into the rotor, usually chopping the tail off.


Another area of concern is PIO or pilot induced oscillation. This usually happens with low time pilots who chase the controls and wind up doing a series of porpoising manuevers that get progressively worse culminating in a tail boom strike or other catastrophe.

A horizontal stabilizer of adequate proportions can vastly improve the damping and control response and reduce the PIO danger.

Incidentally, engine failure results in more than "a gentle glide". A steep glide must be entered to maintain forward airspeed.
At the bottom, similar to a heli, a flare is entered to build energy in the rotor.

There is no collective to pull, the flare is used to cusion the touchdown.



[This message has been edited by Try_Cyclic (edited 24 June 2001).]

[Yogi-Bear]

We weren’t overwhelmed in the mighty rush, were we?

Thank you RN and TC. The ideal configuration that RN espouses is presently unconventional in the Land of Uk. I haven’t seen one in England though I’ll bet they’re lurking somewhere. It may well be the way to go but those that fly here today have a low C of G, high thrust line, with all the accompanying deficiencies, as described. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Using the links from http://www.rotorcraft.com/ :-
A study of http://www.aircommand.com/ will indicate the new configuration. Then refer to http://www.aircommand.com/elite2706.html and notice the degree of modification between the conventional and the new Elite upgrade. I always wondered why nature configured storks and cranes that way. It seems that auto gyros are still very much in an experimental stage and the benign configuration may yet be evolving. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

Dealing with the type you are most likely to buy secondhand, I cannot recommend too highly Peter Lovegrove’s articles in Pilot magazine of August and September 1971. Yes, in 1971 after a spate of fatal accidents. They describe the surprising handling problems of the type of machinery that you still see around today with graphic illustrations of the problems and their consequences. It is sobering reading and this is where we came in. A new spate of accidents is occurring as though it has never happened before. Probably, the articles are still obtainable from Pilot mag. If they can’t oblige then I can, with their permission of course. Just put your life savings in a suitably large ‘Jiffy’ bag and email me for my address! ;) :) 

[Stan Sted]

WWW

I suppose with all those share options and a cut of the profits from your company, a gyro may soon be parked in the garage of the WWW Towers?

PS

A bright yellow gyro flew over my place one evening last week. It looked great but did sound a bit noisy..though it was buzzing along at a fair old lick...a bit like a bee out of hell.
It was flying down the south east corner of the Stansted zone, on a track from Andrewsfield to Stapleford. Might have been doing a big circuit out of North Weald though. Could be a local enthusiast who you could contact?

[This message has been edited by Stan Sted (edited 30 June 2001).]

[ShyTorque]

General interest in gyrocopters?

Take a look at the address below. I found details of this company some 5 years ago and have followed their progress ever since. They may well be onto something big as there does seem to be a market waiting out there.

Perhaps the wider use of these fascinating aircraft is about to begin.

I hope they have the noise problem sorted though. The RAF 2000 that often flies round here sounds like a swarm of bees in a tumbledrier.

http://www.groenbros.com

ShyT

[This message has been edited by ShyTorque (edited 29 June 2001).]

[Wyatt Anderson]

Just a quick note following your ad on PPRUNE.

The man you need is Tony Melody.

He has been building and testing these for CAA, James Bond films and all sorts. He is doing displays all over the world these days. On top of this he is a thoroughly reasonable bloke! He will be more interested in helping get you sorted out properly than helping you unload your wallet.

Please give me your contact details and I will get him to contact you. He will give you some very sound advice. If he doesn't actually sell you one he will tell you what to ovoid and probably point you in the right direction.

Wyatt

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thanks Stan. My email address is in my profile for those that wish to contact me.

Cheers,

WWW