BBMF & Arrows

[waco]

All
Sorry for invading your space, civi here...

I have allways been a huge proponent of BBMF and the arrows.

However, it looks as though a large axe is just around the corner.

I would love to see both parties survive and florish.

However you guys are "in the know" and I wondered what you think.

Thanks for your thoughts............

[Blighter Pilot]

Both will survive for vary reasons:-

RAFAT is still a great PR/Recruitment tool with links to industry including some corporate sponsorship.

BBMF is a 'museum without walls' and remains a tribute to the tens of thousands of young airman and support staff who perished during the Second World War. Last estimates put the total annual cost of BBMF at only £3M, most of which is regained through insurance costs paid by venue organisers.

If we really think that chopping both is going to magically fix the hole in the defence budget we are sorely mistaken - both outfits fulfill important roles.

Although if I had a choice then the Reds would go - BBMF cost peanuts and are a permanent reminder of sacrifices made.

"Lest we Forget"

[gijoe]

I totally agree.

...but the BBMF is very much in-house whilst the Reds support the drive for defence exports sales.

As someone the Ministry stated recently, nothing is sacred.

[Trim Stab]

Reds support the drive for defence exports sales


Would it not be better to display the Typhoon then?

Would it be more expensive to have (say) a four-ship Typhoon display team, than the current Hawk setup?

BBMF will never be chopped.

[Pontius Navigator]

A natural breakpoint for the Reds would be at the end of the Hawk life although I believe they have sufficient airframes for some time yet.

[pma 32dd]

The survival of both is dependant on understanding the value of things and not just their cost

I have more faith in our new government in having a social conscience to this

[Spearmint-R33]

I was speaking to an old n' bold CT on the 'Dead Sparrows' at Akrotiri a few weeks back and he was pretty certain that once the Hawk runs out of hours then it's curtains for the display team.

[acmech1954]

The 'old and bold' may be talking sense, as once the Hawk goes, what would replace it, unless some one starts on it's replacement soon, but saying that, with the reductions being mooted, maybe there will not be enough frames to display and train so perhaps they will have to combine flights, train the U/T pilots on the way to and from the display sites with the main man taking over for the event !!!:eek:

[RileyDove]

'BBMF Never Chopped' ! I wouldn't count on it!

[dallas]

The allocation of a support C130 as a high priority always used to astound me more than the cost of the Reds themselves, especially as many airshows would pay a lot for the latter. I seem to remember a C17 was allocated in support of at least one fairly lengthy overseas jolly and the use of such a scarce AT asset is far more scandalous than the actual cost. I've also seen a brass band flown on a C130 to Cyprus on the same day SF failed to get a C130 for a qualifying para jump, so the cash side is the least of our worries...

[Pontius Navigator]

once the Hawk goes, what would replace it, unless some one starts on it's replacement soon, but saying that, with the reductions being mooted, maybe there will not be enough frames to display and train so perhaps they will have to combine flights, train the U/T pilots on the way to and from the display sites with the main man taking over for the event !!!:eek:

The Hawk trainer replacement is the Hawk 128. The issue is the cost of the128.

Your training solution should not be needed as they train in the closed season.

[zero1]

As for the Reds I am sure there will be a few options on the table from keeping as is to reducing the number of aircraft in the display team, perhaps even changing the aircraft to a cheaper version (running costs), dare I say a turbo prop trainer.

As someone pointed out early it will be down to cost vs. value. :ugh:

[Double Zero]

I would have thought the obvous answer would be to eventually re-equip the Red's with the 128 Hawk, still a good export earner...

Warships do a lot of export work on overseas visits, not quite sure what the Army do, must be something positive beyond encouraging Kalashnikov sales... ( Joke, great respect ).

Even better if the Reds could have Hawk 200 single seaters, which would also be useful to the RAF, but I've met serving light blue pilots who don't even know such an aircraft exists - and other fairly high ranking who were begging for it -, and it ain't gonna happen, besides, no rides for groundcrew ( important ) or banana republic types ( could be handled by BAES ).

As for any mention of binning the BBMF ( whose cost is more than covered by comfy chairs and plasma telly's for civil serpents ) - I would be one of very many getting hold of a gun or at least a bat with a nail through it and striding towards Downing Street !

[Al-Berr]

Get rid of the AEF way before either of these two!

[vecvechookattack]

[QUOTE]Get rid of the AEF way before either of these two/QUOTE]

I heard recently that as a result of the Swansea accident, the maximum age to fly will become 55. Anyone else heard that rumour?

[Pure Pursuit]

The reds are not getting the 128. Much more difficult to service meaning they would need a larger fleet in order to guarantee displays. Having spent several years at Scampton sipping beer with the guys, I'm confident that the Reds will be disbanded once the current fleet is lifed. 2018 is the number in the air. Ties in nicely with the 100th anniversary of the RAF.

Huge shame really as the annual running cost is vey low at £5-6M

[vecvechookattack]

Huge shame really as the annual running cost is vey low at £5-6M

That would be the £5-6m that could be spent on better kit...Maybe get rid of the ancient Anvis goggles we are forced to wear.... and get some new ones....


Notwithstanding that, the £5-6m PA figure is rubbish. The capitation rates just don't add up to make £5-6m.

It costs Circa £9m just to operate the aircraft.

[MATELO]

I was speaking to an old n' bold CT on the 'Dead Sparrows' at Akrotiri a few weeks back and he was pretty certain that once the Hawk runs out of hours then it's curtains for the display team.


How many hours as the "tincano" got!!!!!

[Neptunus Rex]

Much as I would hate to see the demise of the 'Reds' in their present form, two options spring to mind:
1. More sponsorship from British industry.
2. Take a leaf out of the RAAF book and have the 'Reds' as a secondary role for Vachchlley Instructors.
Option 1 would preserve the important overseas displays.
Option 2 has been done before, vide 'Yellowjacks.'

[fallmonk]

Please forgive my ignorance,but would the Euro fighter not be a good replacement for the hawks at the end of there life?
While I appriciate they are dearer to to buy and run. But the "reds" have always been marketed as a good sales pitch for the UK and BAe, is it not a good combination to use maybe earlier Tranche's so the Tranche 3 versions could be purchesed??
And when out of display season they revert to Uk defense or Op's ???
Once again appoliges if a stupid idea .

[Squirrel 41]

VVCA is right, the capitation rates suggest something well above £5m pa - which is not to say that it's not good value, but that transparently costing these things is a much more solid foundation than the figures quoted here.

S41

[Pure Pursuit]

vecvechookattack,

you're suggesting that RAFAT cost in excess of £10M per annum. I'm not so sure. Much of the cost is offset with industry on the airshow circuit, particularly when they are overseas. The budget does sit at around 5-6 million.

If you think the money gained from disbanding them would remain in the MoD's budget, you're being a little naive IMHO. Please don't think I'm suggesting that they should be ring fenced, far from it although I think the public would go apesh*t if the government did can them.

Far better to let the Hawks life out and retire the team with a bit of grace. Any argument against would be met with the absolutely correct argument that the procurement of new a/c to keep them going would be absurd whilst we are committed to Herrick and still short of SH.

On the other hand... If we are out of bandit country by then, perhaps it would be palatable, even to the SH chaps!

If you really want to save a few quid... Bin 3 of the E3s. They cost a small fortune and, aside of a few bits & bobs, they don't do much. Reducing them down to 4 airframes would allow them to carry out 1 op at any time, give them more spares and leave a jet free for training. Commit a few crews to the NATO fleet and Bob's your uncle.

[Frustrated....]

I believe that the E3 fleet is down to 4 frames with the other 3 "put in storage" whatever that means.

[dead_pan]

How many more hours does the BBMF Lanc have before it is at the end of its flying life? It can't go on forever. The spits and hurricanes no doubt have a decent amount of time left between them all.

Perhaps the Reds could be migrated onto Tucanos - anyone a dab hand with photoshop to give us an idea what they'd look like? We could get the Brazilians to pay for them then.

[AirportsEd]

I believe the main spar in the BBMF Lanc isn’t the original, but a replacement specially manufactured by BAe several years ago. They took the opportunity to make a second (spare) spar at the same time. With the relatively few hours PA474 flies each year its current main spar still has enough hours of life to keep her flying for many years and the spare spar is in store for the day when it is required.
With the ability to manufacture just about any part required she should in theory be able to carry on indefinitely – or at least until it isn’t possible to get fuel anymore.

[ACW599]

>or at least until it isn’t possible to get fuel anymore.<

Out of curiosity, can contemporary Merlins and Griffons run on 100LL Avgas or do they need something more exotic?

[andrewn]

Anyone who thinks that cutting either RAFAT or BBMF (or both) will a) release any further significant funding for "frontline" capabilities, or b) have anything other than a highly negative impact on recruitment, morale, visibility / perception of RAF and other armed forces is frankly mad.

And there's the small matter that BBMF is a lasting memorial to those that served in conflicts past and saved us all from a lifetime of Nazism (those of us that would have survived that is). And as for RAFAT, much like HMQ, they represent all that is great about UK plc and are generally fantastic, value for money, ambassadors for the RAF and armed forces in general.

Why does this topic keep getting dredged up time and again (I know it's a discussion forum for all but can't we just consign this debate to where it belongs - the bin!)

[RileyDove]

25% cuts over the next four years on movenment departments from the Budget seems to make the Reds seem a luxury rather than necessity!

[Wyler]

Personally, I don't see that the issue is one of costs, mor like perception.

Yes they are fantastic, been watching them since I was a kid. Best in the world IMHO.

However, at a time when people are screaming about overstretch is it acceptable to have 9 (10?)pilots and associated groundcrew/manager/admin staff on full time PR/Recruiting work? All paid from the public purse.

I think the answer is a resounding yes. But I fear I/we may be in a minority as the cuts bite across society.

[hurn]

As for the Reds I am sure there will be a few options on the table from keeping as is to reducing the number of aircraft in the display team, perhaps even changing the aircraft to a cheaper version (running costs), dare I say a turbo prop trainer.I suppose a 7 ship of Hawks would be ok if needs must, but I really couldn't stand hearing 9 Tucanos' droning on for 20 minutes. :yuk:

Could always have a formation of UAV's up there in future I suppose. At least that way the pilots need never leave the bar. :E

[Ali Barber]

When I was at Coningsby (a long time ago) they were talking about resparring the Lanc and that it would give it another 75 years life! Don't know if that was the final result but it shows the motivation to keep this memorial (rather than display team).

[Green Flash]

Wasn't it re-sparred with a modded Shack main spar?

[vecvechookattack]

I have to agree with Wyler.

I think that the RAFAT do a magnificent job for recruiting / PR etc. but its not servicemen that needs persuading. Joe Public is the fella that needs persuading and seeing as though 99% of them have probably never seen the RAFAT live, then retaining the RAFAT may be an uphill struggle we can't win.

[XR219]

The reds are not getting the 128. Much more difficult to service meaning they would need a larger fleet in order to guarantee displays.

So, 30 years of continuous development have resulted in a Hawk that's much more difficult to service than the original T.1? That's progress! :ugh:

[vecvechookattack]

Its not the technological advancement of the aircraft that has caused this problem. Its the lack of any technological expertise from the maintainers and engineers. Most of them wouldn't know how to fix an aircraft if it didn't involve changing a black box. Ask them to mend the black box and they wouldn't be able to.

[GeeRam]

Wasn't it re-sparred with a modded Shack main spar?

The Lanc was re-sparred during the winter of 1995/96 at St.Athan by RAF/BAe using the remaining leftover material from the Shackleton re-spar programme.

[RUCAWO]

Something like this perhaps.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/sniperUK/UAS%2007/spit29.jpg

Taken shortly after a Tucano test pilot managed to shorten a couple of prop blades when taking off.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Just in case this has been missed. I received it today.

HM Government (http://www.hmg.gov.uk/epetition-responses/petition-view.aspx?epref=BBMFCuts)

[Lightning Mate]

So did I Pop.

[Wyler]

The same Government in waiting that 'currently had no plans to raise VAT'

Sorry to be a killjoy but I would not trust them in the current climate.

[vecvechookattack]

Agreed - Thats a real shame...maybe we can establish a charity or some sort of fund to keep them flying? It would be a great shame to lose the BBMF

[Grimweasel]

But the Government currently has no plans to cut funding for the BBMF.

Key word - currently - what a difference a few months could make....